winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Morning all. We've got a little dilemma on our small building firm and just after your thoughts and knowledge. I've been on this family firm since I left school (13 years) and did a carpentry apprenticeship. I'm one of 2 chippys (boss is a chippy but doesn't work on tools now) and the other is the bosses brother. Now we are all on the cards except the decorator who is self employed but has worked for us 6 years straight everyday. He can do a bit of plastering, the odd bit of plumbing and electrics which is not very often at all and isn't qualified in any trade. Over the last 2 years he's been wanting a better deal and has asked to go on the cards but on the same money he gets SE, asked for a van whilst staying SE, and has now asked for Holiday pay whilst staying SE. He gets £110 a day as it is which I know isn't a lot. He gets more than me but obviously I get a van and hols. Now he was moaning to me the other day he wants to go on the cards again bearing in mind when my boss said to him about a year ago he can go the cards but will have to have less money he said no. I worked with him the other day and he was going on about it and how he's going into the bosses office when he gets back off holiday and putting a deal on the table and if he die at get it he's going. We've been through this before and he's stayed. He wants either to go on the cards and keep to £110 a day or stay self employed and get holiday pay. He won't get either and that's a fact as he's been told by the bosses brother he can't earn more than me. Now the point I want you to give me your opinion on is that when I said to him that in both of his deal offers he would be earning more than me his words were 'to be honest,I think I'm worth more than you'. Yes it got my back up but I didn't bite. He classes himself as a 'multi trader' but what defines that? I'm a chippy and Been told I'm pretty decent at it but I can also tile roofs and do other work so does that class me as one? Silly situation but just interested to know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 This is an interesting one...to me anyhow. I'm self employed and work for a company building and erecting timber frame and Passiv Haus systems. There are six of us of us, none of whom have any qualifications in this given trade, including the two bosses, but we are all multi skilled in this trade. We're on good money, but those we have employed in the past with the relevant qualifications, such as time served joiner, builder etc would be on a higher rate than us even if they had no experience of this trade. If you have the skills and the qualifications to prove it, then you should command the higher rate in my opinion. One of the lads who came to us from retail, and is without doubt a grafter, is constantly moaning that he should be on the same rate as us, despite the fact he hasn't been on the job as long as us; he hasn't the confidence to translate a CADS drawing into a panel; he has no FLT license and doesn't like heights so struggles on ladders, and flatly refuses to go on roofs. The bosses recognise this and pay him accordingly. Your boss should do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 I think your colleague is over pricing himself, seems like he has done it before and will no doubt end up staying as he is. Very simply put, he can't have it both ways. As to valuing himself above you, only your boss can make that decision. Well done to you for not biting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 £110 a day is dire. £150 to £180 is the going rate for a subby around here so £110 on the books wouldn't be unreasonable but I wouldn't want to exist on it. PS, multi's are rubbish at everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unico1 Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Depends how valuable he is to you're gaffer, if he's worth his salt then £110 a day on the books is about right depending on where in the country you are? Chippies and brickies this way self employed are knocking on the £180 a day door. If he ain't much cop then your gaffer is as well to call his bluff and hi might go if not might keep h quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzypigeon Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Jack of all trades.......master of * all springs to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 £110 a day is dire. £150 to £180 is the going rate for a subby around here so £110 on the books wouldn't be unreasonable but I wouldn't want to exist on it. PS, multi's are rubbish at everything. That's a ridiculous sweeping generalisation. There's a lad down the road from me who is only a skilled labourer and has done much work locally from slab up new builds to roofing and is constantly in demand. His work is second to none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Well just tell him if he don't like it then **** off, the grass is always greener! I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to earn £110 a day SE without any real qualifications. He sounds like a pain in the ****, wants all the benefits without doing any of the work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyn2233 Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 **** I'd love to be on £110 a day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 This is an interesting one...to me anyhow. I'm self employed and work for a company building and erecting timber frame and Passiv Haus systems. There are six of us of us, none of whom have any qualifications in this given trade, including the two bosses, but we are all multi skilled in this trade. We're on good money, but those we have employed in the past with the relevant qualifications, such as time served joiner, builder etc would be on a higher rate than us even if they had no experience of this trade. If you have the skills and the qualifications to prove it, then you should command the higher rate in my opinion. One of the lads who came to us from retail, and is without doubt a grafter, is constantly moaning that he should be on the same rate as us, despite the fact he hasn't been on the job as long as us; he hasn't the confidence to translate a CADS drawing into a panel; he has no FLT license and doesn't like heights so struggles on ladders, and flatly refuses to go on roofs. The bosses recognise this and pay him accordingly. Your boss should do the same. If you haven't got qualifications but can do the work as good as someone who has then I don't have any objections and if they provide an important role then so they should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpentermark Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 In my opinion it totally depends on his 'worth', if the boss wants to make ie £30 per day off him and the chap is capable of doing £180 worth of work per day then pay him £150. It doesn't matter what qualifications he has its all about what he can earn the company and he should be paid accordingly. Once you decide his 'worth' deduct a fair amount for the running costs of a van plus the time lost to the company through holidays and make him a decent offer based on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) I think your colleague is over pricing himself, seems like he has done it before and will no doubt end up staying as he is. Ha if I would of bit he would of had to of left. Very simply put, he can't have it both ways. As to valuing himself above you, only your boss can make that decision. Well done to you for not biting. He is a naturally deluded man and is the type who would talk a good job. We all think he thinks he's someone he's not. Without being big headed, my skill set and what I do compared to his is far superior. Edited August 14, 2016 by winnie&bezza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 £110 a day is dire. £150 to £180 is the going rate for a subby around here so £110 on the books wouldn't be unreasonable but I wouldn't want to exist on it. PS, multi's are rubbish at everything. Yes I know it is. We're in south east which makes it even more dire. We don't have to travel far for work at all. Don't get me started on my wages!! Depends how valuable he is to you're gaffer, if he's worth his salt then £110 a day on the books is about right depending on where in the country you are? Chippies and brickies this way self employed are knocking on the £180 a day door. If he ain't much cop then your gaffer is as well to call his bluff and hi might go if not might keep h quiet. He is reliable and a good worker but no way should be on more than me. Well just tell him if he don't like it then **** off, the grass is always greener! I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to earn £110 a day SE without any real qualifications. He sounds like a pain in the ****, wants all the benefits without doing any of the work! He is a pain sometimes. Our firm is always a wage problem as we all should be on more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 If you haven't got qualifications but can do the work as good as someone who has then I don't have any objections and if they provide an important role then so they should. This is how I feel, but then I am a bit biased! One of the lads ( whom has a degree in archeology and is possibly one of the most intelligent/knowledgeable people I know ) can do most things within the building trade, including the electrics and plumbing. His work is immaculate and no doubt owes much of its appearance to his OCD! He used to just get a qualified person to sign off his work. He refuses to do it now for boss as he doesn't get the rate, and would rather be building panels with us anyhow. He can work out all manner of complicated compound cuts using pythagorus' theorem, cosines and tangents, and often tries to teach us but we're too old! We just work it out with the given drawing dimensions. We have been doing this for many years now and on our very first Passiv Haus build got the second lowest reading in the country! We have carried out remedial work carried out by other so called Passiv Haus system builders and are now in demand. We have clients all over the country and have built some of the biggest schools in East Lothian for that council. Not bad for 'rubbish multis'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 In my opinion it totally depends on his 'worth', if the boss wants to make ie £30 per day off him and the chap is capable of doing £180 worth of work per day then pay him £150. It doesn't matter what qualifications he has its all about what he can earn the company and he should be paid accordingly. Once you decide his 'worth' deduct a fair amount for the running costs of a van plus the time lost to the company through holidays and make him a decent offer based on that. My boss wants to make more than that a day! He charges £180 for us. So he pays him £110 and does that mean he earns the firm £70 a day or die the boss have to pay insurance or whatever out of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpentermark Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) My boss wants to make more than that a day! He charges £180 for us. So he pays him £110 and does that mean he earns the firm £70 a day or die the boss have to pay insurance or whatever out of that? No it means he earns the firm £180 and the firm makes £70 per day profit on him by paying him £110. Overheads and insurances will come out of the profit they make on his wages. Edited August 14, 2016 by carpentermark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpentermark Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) If they want to make £70 per day on him (which is a lot!) and hes capable of earning the company £180 per day and he wants a van and holidays then i would work it out like this: Taking into account the running costs on a van at £10 per day. 22 days holiday loss at £180 per day then: 180 X 5 = 900 pw 900 x 52 = 46800 per year 46800 - 2600 (van) = 44200 44200 - 3960 (loss to company for holidays) = 40240 (70 per day profit = 18200 anual profit) 40240 - 18200 = 22040 divided by 52 weeks = 423.85 £423.85 per week divided by 5 days = £85 per day, on the books with van, holiday pay and bank holidays. Which to be honest is a very low amount. Think your company needs to re-evaluate their profit mark up if they want to keep decent lads on! Edited August 14, 2016 by carpentermark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 This is how I feel, but then I am a bit biased! One of the lads ( whom has a degree in archeology and is possibly one of the most intelligent/knowledgeable people I know ) can do most things within the building trade, including the electrics and plumbing. His work is immaculate and no doubt owes much of its appearance to his OCD! He used to just get a qualified person to sign off his work. He refuses to do it now for boss as he doesn't get the rate, and would rather be building panels with us anyhow. He can work out all manner of complicated compound cuts using pythagorus' theorem, cosines and tangents, and often tries to teach us but we're too old! We just work it out with the given drawing dimensions. We have been doing this for many years now and on our very first Passiv Haus build got the second lowest reading in the country! We have carried out remedial work carried out by other so called Passiv Haus system builders and are now in demand. We have clients all over the country and have built some of the biggest schools in East Lothian for that council. Not bad for 'rubbish multis'! Interesting stuff mate. Really a piece of paper saying your qualified means nothing really. I learnt far more from being at work than at college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 If they want to make £70 per day on him (which is a lot!) and hes capable of earning the company £180 per day and he wants a van and holidays then i would work it out like this: Taking into account the running costs on a van at £10 per day. 22 days holiday loss at £180 per day then: 180 X 5 = 900 pw 900 x 52 = 46800 per year 46800 - 2600 (van) = 44200 44200 - 3960 (loss to company for holidays) = 40240 (70 per day profit = 18200 anual profit) 40240 - 18200 = 22040 divided by 52 weeks = 423.85 £423.85 per week divided by 5 days = £85 per day, on the books with van, holiday pay and bank holidays. Which to be honest is a very low amount. Think your company needs to re-evaluate their profit mark up if they want to keep decent lads on! Well I'm on £450 a week with van and 28 days holiday. He's already said to me he couldn't go on the cards for my wages! I'm his sticking point as he can't earn more than me because they don't want me asking for more which I would do. I would be very annoyed. Yes it does need re-structuring and the boss has always paid poorly as he's a tight greedy ***. He's my brother in laws dad ha. The type of work we do and name we have we should definitely be on more but never gonna earn well when your get profit and paying someone out of £180! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Well I'm on £450 a week with van and 28 days holiday. He's already said to me he couldn't go on the cards for my wages! I'm his sticking point as he can't earn more than me because they don't want me asking for more which I would do. I would be very annoyed. Yes it does need re-structuring and the boss has always paid poorly as he's a tight greedy ***. He's my brother in laws dad ha. The type of work we do and name we have we should definitely be on more but never gonna earn well when your get profit and paying someone out of £180! Not considered self employed? The hours are **** but the perks are great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 W&B Could it be that your boss only gets work in by charging the lowest price? A price that is effectively TOO LOW! If that is the case there will be very little margin for an increase or of taking Mr Multi-Skilled on to the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Not considered self employed? The hours are **** but the perks are great! It's always on my mind and would love to! I had cards made up early this year for private work and put them about and have had a fair bit of work from them. Not enough to go alone though. Don't want to go house bashing as its not my thing. To be fair we get some nice interesting work on our firm but pay isn't there really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 i know labourers who work on agency and are paid around £13.00 an hour now they pick up some level of skills at various aspects of construction but are never quallified.if someone goes through years of college and working for a pittance then they should be rewarded with higher wages.there are people who know a little about electrics and a little about gas but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,and any company that uses these people on projects is only one accident away from closure.i pay self employed a premium rate as i do not have to pay n.i for them or holiday pay sick pay and when i dont need them i dont pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted August 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 W&B Could it be that your boss only gets work in by charging the lowest price? A price that is effectively TOO LOW! If that is the case there will be very little margin for an increase or of taking Mr Multi-Skilled on to the books. Well I don't know if he could charge more? For the name we have around our way then we probably could but would we get the work? I'm going to do some fancy design birch ply shelves for an architect who uses us tomorrow and he's the fussiest,strictest most efficient bloke I've come across and he overseas all the work on the churches around the this way which we usually carry out and he described us as the best he uses. He doesn't usually come out with praise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 It's always on my mind and would love to! I had cards made up early this year for private work and put them about and have had a fair bit of work from them. Not enough to go alone though. Don't want to go house bashing as its not my thing. To be fair we get some nice interesting work on our firm but pay isn't there really. There are one or two lads around here who were employed but have gone it alone but still sub to their previous employers, which is what we have all done. It's a win win situation, and if your work is good ( which it obviously is ) then word soon gets around believe me, especially in the more rural areas. Flyers are pennies for hundreds and you can get round many houses in a night with something like 'W&B, formerly of such and such, now self employed and seeking work etc etc' or something along those lines. I've been self employed on and off for 20 odd years and wouldn't go cards in again if at all possible. Receipts and claim for everything....and I mean everything; even that one pound parking ticket you paid for while getting your materials. Boss is quite happy for us to remain self employed as when there is no work we all go our own way and do our own stuff, then go back when he's busy. His new business partner however is wanting us cards in as he has no control over us, but we've already told him no. Take the jump; you wont regret it. I don't know anyone around here who does regret it, and most of them were employed by a big commercial builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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