Hammer Guns and Antique Guns.

[Blackpowder]

Black powder cartridges are costly - Game bore used to load black powder but i think they ran about 18 quid a box.

 

I just got my black powder ticket and load my own - I get my primed hulls from henry krank at £7 for 50, powder wads and lead from kranks then have a couple evenings just loading up before the pheasant season.

 

Obviously if the guns nitro proofed you dont need the hassle - hull imperial game 26 gram is a hard hitter that i have always had very good results with from older guns.

Hi demonwolf. Is this all done by hand as I am sure I have read that there are snags loading BP through a machine. I did shoot blackpowder at pheasants for a couple of seasons and it was an interesting experiment and experience and could discern little difference in the ballistics,ie I could miss as much with nitro as I could with BP. The one great thing was the light recoil of BP compared to smokeless.

 

Blackpowder

 

Blackpowder

[Feltwad]

Hi demonwolf. Is this all done by hand as I am sure I have read that there are snags loading BP through a machine. I did shoot blackpowder at pheasants for a couple of seasons and it was an interesting experiment and experience and could discern little difference in the ballistics,ie I could miss as much with nitro as I could with BP. The one great thing was the light recoil of BP compared to smokeless.

 

Blackpowder

 

Blackpowder

Blackpowder

The only snag with a loading machine is the right die for the powder charge ,using a Lee Loadall I first resize and reprime a case then I add the powder using a drm measure by hand .for the most other I use the machine for placing the wads and shot and a antique rolled turn over for the finish ,if you use fired crimp cases the the crimp will need to be trimed after the cartridge is loaded leaving enough of case for a rolled turnover.This I find the easy way and loading one cartridge a minute is normal.

 

Feltwad

Feltwad

[Mr.C]

On the subject of antique guns, can anyone help with information about Blissett and Sons of South Castle Street Liverpool?

A steer in the right direction would be appreciated as I cant find anything much online at all.

Cheers

Edited October 9, 2016 by Mr.C

[Mr.C]

ok dont seem to be able to add photos

Edited October 11, 2016 by Mr.C

[buze]

Mr C, post them to imgur.com and copy/paste the link...

[kevin55]

On the subject of antique guns, can anyone help with information about Blissett and Sons of South Castle Street Liverpool?

A steer in the right direction would be appreciated as I cant find anything much online at all.

Cheers

Not much in Nigel Brown, other than an indication that there was a London address at one time

 

Found this from Vintage Guns

 

http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/john-blissett/

Edited October 11, 2016 by kevin55

[Mr.C]

Cheers Kevin I'm aware there was a Blissett in London it's the Liverpool end of the family that is a bit of a mystery so far. I'll keep digging

[buze]

That looks really lovely Mr.C -- the dovetail 'third bite' is spectacular! Is it your gun?

 

Here are the proof marks on the hammer gun I got passed down. I looks VERY early, as it doesn't have a lot of marks to start with! '13' and a couple more... It's a 'grant like' under lever locker, has 'early' damascus barrels and the engraving is 'cute' but definitely not high class....

 

BTW I bought 2 of the books of Higgory Hadoke, composed a nice email to him and never heard anything back. I also thought that his hammer gun book was a little bit too much of an advert to his own business, TBH

 

[Mr.C]

Yes Buze it is 😁. I had a relatively quick response from DH to confirm what I had come to conclude, that the records for Blissett and Son no longer exist and that the number on the action table is an Anson and Deeley patent use number which tallies with the proof marks 1875-1887. The stock is not original so I have no qualms about getting it extended, a leather covered pad should look the part.

Very nice underlever hammer gun, will have a closer look at the proof marks.

[Sako7mm]

That 'dovetail third bite' is a doll's head extension.

[Feltwad]

That 'dovetail third bite' is a doll's head extension.

Exactly ,very common on Belgium guns of that period but also used by English gun makers.

Feltwad

[Walker570]

Two makers mentioned above and I have one of each.

 

Army & Navy 16 gauge circa approx. 1900 still with superb Damascus barrels and nitro proofed when I acquired it, from BP originally.

Any Army & Navy shotgun if it has been looked after would be a good safe buy because they only had top gunmakers provide guns for them. I am led to believe mine is Westley Richards but certainly made in the Gun Quarter, Birmingham. Took it for a stroll this last Saturday and it killed a couple of 50yrd crossing hen birds with that easterly wind behind them, no trouble at all.

 

BSA ... I have my grandfathers old 12 gauge BSA boxlock. I am not sure when he purchased it but I think it was pre WW2. He did have a new set of barrels made(sleeved), why I don't know because that was some 60yrs ago. I had the stock measured and the stocker took the challenge and bent it to my fit. I accepted the challenge. The stock was obviously dry and old and before putting in the vice it was sat in warm oil for quite a while before with eyes closed and fingers crossed, the vice was turned a half turn every morning when he came to work. That was 50yrs ago and it still holds true today. The action is just a little slack and I need to have it refurbished. Not much flies on if it comes within 45yrds of this old gun.

 

There are some magnificent new guns on the market today but for me nothing beats the feel of an old English shotgun and the history behind it. What a tale they could tell if they could only speak.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Walker570

[goober]

I got to use my late fathers hammer gun this weekend,the first time since 1985 when I first used it pigeon shooting when I was just 15.

It is a'guyot' bar in wood with single selective trigger with sir Joseph whitworth fluid steel barrels.

I have noticed the rarity of single trigger hammer guns when trying to research the gun.

[buze]

So, about these rebouding hammers -- mine has these, however the 'pins' themselves are not on a spring, so they stay 'down'... Seems it's not a problem for opening the gun, but can be a problem when closing it again.

 

So question is, would my gun have springs in the pins themselves, or is the bahaviour fully normal?

[JohnfromUK]

So, about these rebouding hammers -- mine has these, however the 'pins' themselves are not on a spring, so they stay 'down'... Seems it's not a problem for opening the gun, but can be a problem when closing it again.

 

So question is, would my gun have springs in the pins themselves, or is the bahaviour fully normal?

There is no YES/NO answer; Many do have small springs (bit like a ballpoint refill spring). Sometimes these fail as they corrode (gas can get in there). Some have a variety of 'patent' extractors that retract the pins as the opening lever/mechanism is operated - a good example is on many push up lever William Powell guns where pushing up the lever also lifts the firing pins.

I have not seen any that remain down, but suspect they probably exist, though many may just have a failed/missing spring?

[matone]

I got to use my late fathers hammer gun this weekend,the first time since 1985 when I first used it pigeon shooting when I was just 15.

It is a'guyot' bar in wood with single selective trigger with sir Joseph whitworth fluid steel barrels.

I have noticed the rarity of single trigger hammer guns when trying to research the gun.

That sounds like something very special ! Guyot made some fabulous guns.

[buze]

There is no YES/NO answer; Many do have small springs (bit like a ballpoint refill spring). Sometimes these fail as they corrode (gas can get in there). Some have a variety of 'patent' extractors that retract the pins as the opening lever/mechanism is operated - a good example is on many push up lever William Powell guns where pushing up the lever also lifts the firing pins.

I have not seen any that remain down, but suspect they probably exist, though many may just have a failed/missing spring?

 

Thanks for that -- I half assumed there would be some sort of spring mechanism in there. I'll have to take the courage to remove the grub pins and see what's in there; perhaps it could be pretty straightforward to put a spring in there too; a pen or a keyboard spring could do it I'm sure.

It's also not preventing the gun to work, just needs to remember to push the pins back with the finger before closing the gun; it's not like it's a quick firing thing anyway :-)

[ChrisPCarter]

This is a good read, as it happens I've been looking into hammer guns myself this week as I've always fancied one. I ordered the hammer guns book last night and it should be here tomorrow.

I've found that Just Cartridges still stock Gamebore black powder cartridges but they are £29 a box or £263.00 per slab plus £15 delivery. Even buying by the 1000 they work out at £1 per shot. I wouldn't shoot this gun a lot but that's a bit too pricey for me! Plus it sounds like BP is a pain to clean (lots of hot water soaking needed) as it's very corrosive.

[ChrisPCarter]

I was looking at a very nice condition Joseph Lang hammer gun the other day, made around 1870 I believe. 29.5" damascus barrels, 2.5" chambers and a bit of choke which seems quite rare as a lot are cylinder.

It seems to lock up nice and solid and there's not a mark on the barrels or action.

It's had a stock extension piece fitted but it looks very nicely done and could even be the original wood put back on. I just can't decide if the extension puts me off a bit but it's a lovely gun otherwise.

Now comes the real issue, it was recently re-proofed for black powder. The guy selling it is apparently well regarded for his knowledge of old guns and says he doesn't know why they didn't nitro proof it as he is sure it would have passed as the barrels are thick and probably thicker than a lot of new guns. I think he said they were over 40 thou throughout. Being no expert I am having to take his word for it. He said he wouldn't bother getting it re-proofed and would have no worries shooting your average nitro game cartridges through it. I mentioned I have a slab of 2.5" Grand Prix paper cartridges in 30g 6 and that I wouldn't really need anything bigger. The biggest I ever shoot in my O/U are 32g 5 but I probably wouldn't go that far, though I do have some Fiocchi ones in 2.5" too.

What I don't know are the proof pressures for black powder and what an average or light game nitro cartridge produces?

Is this advice reasonable or just dangerous?

Also what does the law say regarding shooting nitro in a BP proof gun?

It's a very nice gun and seems a good price - they said if it had an untouched stock and nitro proof it would be double the price, which does seem right from others I've seen.

 

Cheers, Chris.

Edited November 13, 2016 by ChrisPCarter

[bruno22rf]

Cleaning BP guns is no real chore - cheap windscreen wash for your car does the job followed by a decent oil such as Napier Gun cleaner and lubricant is all you need - might want to wait till the Boss is in bed though as the smell is a bit whiffy- or you can blame the dog of course. As for the law on using Nitro cartridges in a BP Gun - don't think there's much of a legal issue - but you might end up becoming an expert by the time you have been discharged from your local A&E - DONT DO IT - might well be safe but it could remove your good looks or, more importantly, ruin a fine old gun.

Edited November 14, 2016 by bruno22rf

[JohnfromUK]

Be aware that any insurance you have may be void if you use Nitro in a BP gun .....

 

The proof issue would worry me; it is not just the barrels, it is the closure type, action bar design, etc.

 

Either someone had it BP re-proofed because they were 'purist' and felt it 'wrong' to Nitro ....... or there was concern it wouldn't pass. It is not just straight 'pressure', but the rate of rise of pressure ..... and where in the barrel the peak pressure occurs. BP burns very differently to Nitro.

 

In my view to shoot Nitro through it would be very unwise.

[Feltwad]

If the gun is only black powder proof then stick to black powder only,if you want it nitro take it too a good gunsmith who should know if it is worthwhile to have it reproofed for nitro The question is why was it not nitro proofed when it was reproofed for blackpowder,If you buy the gun my advice if you want to use nitro have it proved for nitro do not forget if it is going to burst it might has well be in the proof house and not in your hand.

Feltwad

The hammer guns in the enclose image have all been restored and reproofed for nitro although I only use black powder in them

Edited November 14, 2016 by Feltwad

[ChrisPCarter]

Yes I know you're right, I will either stick to black powder or wait for another gun to come up.

It does look in such good condition it's a shame it's not been nitro proofed.

I presume I'm right in thinking that some work must have been done on it to need re-proofing?

Surely you wouldn't proof it again for BP if it's already in proof?

The guy in the shop did run through all the usual failure points and said everything was solid.

I should have the hammer gun book today so I'll have a good read up on them and see if there's any other styles take my fancy.

Shooting BP would be nice in some ways for a special day but I've got stacks of 2.5" nitro cartridges to use and the costs and inconvenience of getting another type of cartridge on top of my 12, 20 and 410 stuff is probably too much of a pain in the ****.

[ChrisPCarter]

What are the likely costs and processing time to get it reproofed assuming there is nothing wrong with it?

[JohnfromUK]

Yes I know you're right, I will either stick to black powder or wait for another gun to come up.

It does look in such good condition it's a shame it's not been nitro proofed.

I presume I'm right in thinking that some work must have been done on it to need re-proofing?

Surely you wouldn't proof it again for BP if it's already in proof?

The guy in the shop did run through all the usual failure points and said everything was solid.

I should have the hammer gun book today so I'll have a good read up on them and see if there's any other styles take my fancy.

Shooting BP would be nice in some ways for a special day but I've got stacks of 2.5" nitro cartridges to use and the costs and inconvenience of getting another type of cartridge on top of my 12, 20 and 410 stuff is probably too much of a pain in the ****.

Proofing is required when the barrels have been 'materially altered'. This is usually (12 bore) that they have been enlarged (by lapping/fine boring to remove pitting) to the next proof size (i.e. .729 to .738) thousandths of an inch. It can also be for other reasons like chamber lengthening.

IF it would have stood a good chance of nitro proof - I can't see why the seller wouldn't have done this. Proof is a risky and not cheap process as the gun needs to be prepared for proof (woodwork removed etc.) and I think may have to be submitted by an RFD/gunsmith, but I'm not sure on that.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a gun only in BP proof (except as a wall hanger) - too much hassle. You could ask the seller (if he is so confident it will pass) to have it Nitro proofed at a pre-agreed price conditional on passing nitro proof (in other words, you pay costs if it passes - he carries the risk that it doesn't)

 

I have heard that the proof of older guns has become a lot more strict recently and the failure rate has been higher as a consequence, though how many of these failures are at 'viewing' as opposed to catastrophic failures I can't say.

Edited November 14, 2016 by JohnfromUK