Is rifle powder quantity so critical?

[turbo33]

Before I get shot down in flames, this is a debate not Intended to be an idiot question re, reloading smaller calibres i.e., 222, 204, 223 etc.

 

So we all want that finger nail group at 100 yards and clearly work up charges to a recommended maximum, some will push further!

 

Colin lad posted some development results for his rounds for his 204 and 222. ( nice groups Colin and don't for a minute think I underestimate your marksmanship!)

 

Using Colin's findings as just a recent post ( hope that's ok Colin?) targets 2,3,5 there is no dicernable difference in 20grns to 20.5 grns. At 21grns, a really tight group. So 20.5 to 21 is an increase of some 2.5% powder charge but the group went from ( I'm guessing Colin) close on an inch down to quarter of an inch? An improvement of 75%. The percentage difference may not be applicable. But assuming in all these threads the rifle is not clamped in a windless tunnel, are there not other variables to take into account or is the charge so critical?

What are your thoughts on this?

Edited October 28, 2016 by turbo33

[Dougy]

Development results at 100yds won't show up variables as much as 200yds. Or further.

Use a teaspoon to measure the powder and you could possibly get good results at 100.

I develope a load to 100 then field tune at 200 if I intend to use the rifles or long range stuff ie over 350.

[spandit]

It depends on whether you're reloading for accuracy or cost. I can produce cheaper than factory ammunition by reloading and my tests have shown it's more consistent but I'm sure either of them would be capable of hitting a live target at reasonable ranges. For bench rest shooting one would probably need to be more particular with precision

[Redgum]

Its really important to limit the variables when working up a load, I zero with a bipod and sandbag on the butt end on as still an evening as possible. I like to have as accurate rifle as possible but find working up powder weights is as far as I will take it. If you want to go really over the top on reloading then you really need a better barrel to deliver rather than an off the peg hunting rifle.The most important thing to do ( that many don't which shows up on simple accuracy tests like the DSC1) is target practice with the method in which you will shoot in the field eg off sticks, free hand etc. This type of practice with correct breathing and trigger control will tune your groups in the field.

[Savhmr]

Yes, quantity matters. How a rifle groups (ie accuracy and precision) is a function of a thing called barrel time. A barrel (any barrel) will have a harmonic motion with each shot fired where the pressure wave causes the barrel to oscillate in a sort of sinusoidal motion and whip around as a result of Newton's 2nd law acting on the barrel from the projectile spinning down the rifling. When the muzzle is on-axis, you'll get your most consistent groups. Research has shown that for most barrels, irrespective of barrel contour, there are about 5 nodes or barrel times where this happens, each one being a factor of bullet seating depth and load. Finding these is a factor of either altering load; altering seating depth, or both, as these variables all alter the time from detonation to the bullet leaving the muzzle and the "shape" of the pressure wave (in terms of when pressure peaks) from the chamber down the barrel. Some powder/bullet combinations are more sensitive than others depending on powder burn rate wrt projectile length and weight, hence some powders are only suitable for some bullets in some calibres. Load data is supplied by powder manufacturers to provide guides as to which is best depending on burn rate and pressure produced behind specific weight bullets in each calibre.

 

Testing at 100 yds can be useful, in conjunction with a choronoraph, to determine average velocity, standard deviation and extreme spread (ie load consistency) with group size. Grouping at distance is useful in determining things like bullet stability, vertical spread (related to velocity spread) and trajectory confirmation. For longer range shooting, longer range testing is necessary to determine actual trajectory for your rifle/bullet combination and for bullet stability at various velocities, plus consistency. Most hunting is done within 200 yards, so for most of us, longer range considerations (including which BC's to use) are less of a concern than just group size. Even at 100 yds, some calibre/load variations of just .2 or .3 grains can see groups open up appreciably, ditto seating depth changes of say 10, 20 or 30 thou.

 

Loads of info on line but Brian Litz's publications together with a good load manual both make really interesting and informative reading for those wanting to delve deeper!

Edited October 28, 2016 by Savhmr

[Redgum]

Yes, quantity matters. How a rifle groups (ie accuracy and precision) is a function of a thing called barrel time. A barrel (any barrel) will have a harmonic motion with each shot fired where the pressure wave causes the barrel to oscillate in a sort of sinusoidal motion and whip around as a result of Newton's 2nd law acting on the barrel from the projectile spinning down the rifling. When the muzzle is on-axis, you'll get your most consistent groups. Research has shown that for most barrels, irrespective of barrel contour, there are about 5 nodes or barrel times where this happens, each one being a factor of bullet seating depth and load. Finding these is a factor of either altering load; altering seating depth, or both, as these variables all alter the time from detonation to the bullet leaving the muzzle and the "shape" of the pressure wave (in terms of when pressure peaks) from the chamber down the barrel. Some powder/bullet combinations are more sensitive than others depending on powder burn rate wrt projectile length and weight, hence some powders are only suitable for some bullets in some calibres. Load data is supplied by powder manufacturers to provide guides as to which is best depending on burn rate and pressure produced behind specific weight bullets in each calibre.

 

Testing at 100 yds can be useful, in conjunction with a choronoraph, to determine average velocity, standard deviation and extreme spread (ie load consistency) with group size. Grouping at distance is useful in determining things like bullet stability, vertical spread (related to velocity spread) and trajectory confirmation. For longer range shooting, longer range testing is necessary to determine actual trajectory for your rifle/bullet combination and for bullet stability at various velocities, plus consistency. Most hunting is done within 200 yards, so for most of us, longer range considerations (including which BC's to use) are less of a concern than just group size. Even at 100 yds, some calibre/load variations of just .2 or .3 grains can see groups open up appreciably, ditto seating depth changes of say 10, 20 or 30 thou.

 

Loads of info on line but Brian Litz's publications together with a good load manual both make really interesting and informative reading for those wanting to delve deeper!

 

Well there's the quick answer to the question

[Andy RV]

Consistency!

[Harnser]

Yes, quantity matters. How a rifle groups (ie accuracy and precision) is a function of a thing called barrel time. A barrel (any barrel) will have a harmonic motion with each shot fired where the pressure wave causes the barrel to oscillate in a sort of sinusoidal motion and whip around as a result of Newton's 2nd law acting on the barrel from the projectile spinning down the rifling. When the muzzle is on-axis, you'll get your most consistent groups. Research has shown that for most barrels, irrespective of barrel contour, there are about 5 nodes or barrel times where this happens, each one being a factor of bullet seating depth and load. Finding these is a factor of either altering load; altering seating depth, or both, as these variables all alter the time from detonation to the bullet leaving the muzzle and the "shape" of the pressure wave (in terms of when pressure peaks) from the chamber down the barrel. Some powder/bullet combinations are more sensitive than others depending on powder burn rate wrt projectile length and weight, hence some powders are only suitable for some bullets in some calibres. Load data is supplied by powder manufacturers to provide guides as to which is best depending on burn rate and pressure produced behind specific weight bullets in each calibre.

 

Testing at 100 yds can be useful, in conjunction with a choronoraph, to determine average velocity, standard deviation and extreme spread (ie load consistency) with group size. Grouping at distance is useful in determining things like bullet stability, vertical spread (related to velocity spread) and trajectory confirmation. For longer range shooting, longer range testing is necessary to determine actual trajectory for your rifle/bullet combination and for bullet stability at various velocities, plus consistency. Most hunting is done within 200 yards, so for most of us, longer range considerations (including which BC's to use) are less of a concern than just group size. Even at 100 yds, some calibre/load variations of just .2 or .3 grains can see groups open up appreciably, ditto seating depth changes of say 10, 20 or 30 thou.

 

Loads of info on line but Brian Litz's publications together with a good load manual both make really interesting and informative reading for those wanting to delve deeper!

 

 

Oh dear god how ever did I manage to shoot deer .

 

Harnser

[Dunkield]

Oh dear god how ever did I manage to shoot deer .

 

Harnser

 

Funny thing is if you go to mainland Europe they shoot plenty of animals and just use factory loads.

Perhaps they are out shooting while some of us are stressing about chasing that elusive 0.1 moa..

[Harnser]

Funny thing is if you go to mainland Europe they shoot plenty of animals and just use factory loads.

 

 

Perhaps they are out shooting while some of us are stressing about chasing that elusive 0.1 moa..

All the years that I stalked deer I used only two calibres . The mighty .270 and the venerable .308 . I loaded for both off these rounds very successfully . The .270 load was 47 grains of vit 140 behind a 130 grain bullet . The .308 was 45 grains of vit 140 behind a 150 grain bullet . Both of these rounds would shoot an inch at 100 yards . I have killed big red stags on the spot with both of these loads I have had no need to experiment beyond these two loads.

 

Harnser

[Vince Green]

In load testing you are not going to base everything on one group but it will give you a bit of encouragement to look further. load development can easily develop into a hobby in its own right and its very enjoyable. Apart from having confidence in the load it causes you to hone your marksmanship skills.

 

but it can also get a bit obsessive

Edited October 31, 2016 by Vince Green

[Savhmr]

 

Well there's the quick answer to the question

 

 

The short answer is "yes"

 

The detailed answer is for those who just might be interested in why the answer was "yes"

 

It has nothing to do with the gun going "bang" and the deer falling over Harnser. Someone may want the detail for other reasons, like precision shooting where it matters a lot more than for stalking.

 

Why, when someone takes the trouble to post a comprehensive answer in order to actually try and help someone, is there always someone with nothing better to do than to denigrate?

[Harnser]

The short answer is "yes"

 

The detailed answer is for those who just might be interested in why the answer was "yes"

 

It has nothing to do with the gun going "bang" and the deer falling over Harnser. Someone may want the detail for other reasons, like

 

 

 

precision shooting where it matters a lot more than for stalking.

 

Why, when someone takes the trouble to post a comprehensive answer in order to actually try and help someone, is there always someone with nothing better to do than to denigrate?

My dear friend . I am very sorry that you should take offence at my comments of your very comprehensive insight to reloading . All that I intended to say , was that I have never been into reloading in as technical a way as you obviously are . I was meaning that I must have been very lucky with my development of the two loads that served me well over many ,many years .

 

Harnser

[Vince Green]

reloading for scores is a massively more complicated subject. Hugely more detailed than knocking down the odd deer or fox.

[Redgum]

 

 

The short answer is "yes"

 

The detailed answer is for those who just might be interested in why the answer was "yes"

 

It has nothing to do with the gun going "bang" and the deer falling over Harnser. Someone may want the detail for other reasons, like precision shooting where it matters a lot more than for stalking.

 

Why, when someone takes the trouble to post a comprehensive answer in order to actually try and help someone, is there always someone with nothing better to do than to denigrate?

 

I don't think Harnser was putting your comment down mate but its true that the search for the holy grail in super accurate loads doesn't have to be so critical in the field, from what I have seen over the years, practicing technique in field shooting can improve accuracy ten fold. What's the point of being able to shoot tiny little groups off the bonnet of the truck with a bipod and bags when you can only wobble about like a drunken sailor once on the sticks.

[Savhmr]

Sorry folks, especially you Harnser...didn't mean to be tetchy. Had a bad day yesterday....dealing with some very bad news. My apologies if I caused offence.

[Bewsher500]

no factory ammo is loaded by weight....none

 

I spent two years loading with scoops

I now check 1 out of 10 the rest being thrown with a powder thrower (volume not weight)

 

neck tension and brass prep consistency is more important than weighing powder to the 1/10th of a grain

a) very few scales are accurate down to 1/10th of a grain

b) you assume that a specific weight of powder has the same pressure producing capacity through energy release as an exact same weight......it doesn't

[Savhmr]

no factory ammo is loaded by weight....none

 

I spent two years loading with scoops

I now check 1 out of 10 the rest being thrown with a powder thrower (volume not weight)

 

neck tension and brass prep consistency is more important than weighing powder to the 1/10th of a grain

a) very few scales are accurate down to 1/10th of a grain

b) you assume that a specific weight of powder has the same pressure producing capacity through energy release as an exact same weight......it doesn't

 

The point though is consistency. Very few throwers, except those to benchrest standards, throw precise uniform volumes. There's umpteen threads on the 'net about the inaccuracies of many throwers. That brings us to scoops. Fine if you have a selection and load that way, but irrespective of powder energy release per unit mass (which varies from batch to batch) to get consistent loads demands either consistent volumes or consistent weights for each batch. One is as important as the other depending on which way you are set up to load. You can prove both points using a chrony and looking for ES/SD figures, which if you are consistent, and you are careful RE neck tension and brass prep, should come down. Some powders and cals are obviously more sensitive to others on variation. I'd expect a .204 or .223 to be less tolerant of changes than say a 30-06 where the odd 0.1 or 0.2 grains may make little or no difference.

 

Then, there's the question of how you actually load the powder. There's some evidence that using long tubed funnels to swirl the powder in creates a more uniform and consistent burn.

 

I agree though that neck tension and brass prep is more important. I've recently started testing reloads using the same powder batch on cases which range from new, to 5 times fired, and concluded that for consistency, I'll be annealing every 2nd or 3rd firing max. It was surprising just how much ES starts to grow after just 3 or 4 firings.

 

For those just interested in shooting charlie at up to 200 yds, none of this probably matters much as you'll get accurate enough results with something as simple as a Lee loader. For those carrying out something like corvid control over extended ranges to say 400 yds, it starts to matter a lot more, and the further out you go, the more apparent velocity differences become with vertical spread increases (and groups open up more as the wind picks up) so precision in loading matters more in those circumstances. Learning to read the wind is essential as all this loading millarky isn't worth a damn if you can't read the wind well enough and you're basically wasting your time. I reckon people might be better served by learning to read wind by practicing on steel before overly worrying about loading precision.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Savhmr

[Old farrier]

Hi

Very interesting thread 😊

Couple of questions I f I may

Firstly I shoot quarry with expanding heads however can only use solids at local range is it possible to reload to get the same point of impact from both types if so how

 

Second have two rifles same caliber one for daytime one with night vision

Will one round work equally in both

 

Sorry if I'm a pain asking 😊

 

All the best

Of

[Vince Green]

Why do you have to use solids at the range?

[Old farrier]

Why do you have to use solids at the range?

Club rules fmj no expangding ammunition on the range

[Harnser]

The only reason that I reloaded my own rifle ammo back in the day ,Was because it was so much cheaper then . I could reload my own ammo for less than half price . My old mentor who was with out a doubt the best rifle shot I have ever met recommended the two loads that I mentioned earlier . I used to weigh every load on my scales and always crimped . I decided to give up stalking last year because it no longer boded well with me . I now like to watch the deer around the farms and have no inclination to want to shoot them any more . I have passed on some of my stalking expertise and experiance onto others who keep the deer numbers down when necessary .

 

Harnser

[Dougy]

Hi

Very interesting thread

Couple of questions I f I may

Firstly I shoot quarry with expanding heads however can only use solids at local range is it possible to reload to get the same point of impact from both types if so how

Second have two rifles same caliber one for daytime one with night vision

Will one round work equally in both

Sorry if I'm a pain asking

All the best

Of

What I would do is match your target load to your hunting load. It's possible yes.

Different rifles,,,, it's going to be try it and see, not a simple yes or no answer, but you could be lucky.

Chamber size could be a factor, but if you full length resize that should make each case fit either rifle. That's going to be a short process hopefully.

[colin lad]

Before I get shot down in flames, this is a debate not Intended to be an idiot question re, reloading smaller calibres i.e., 222, 204, 223 etc.

 

So we all want that finger nail group at 100 yards and clearly work up charges to a recommended maximum, some will push further!

 

Colin lad posted some development results for his rounds for his 204 and 222. ( nice groups Colin and don't for a minute think I underestimate your marksmanship!)

 

Using Colin's findings as just a recent post ( hope that's ok Colin?) targets 2,3,5 there is no dicernable difference in 20grns to 20.5 grns. At 21grns, a really tight group. So 20.5 to 21 is an increase of some 2.5% powder charge but the group went from ( I'm guessing Colin) close on an inch down to quarter of an inch? An improvement of 75%. The percentage difference may not be applicable. But assuming in all these threads the rifle is not clamped in a windless tunnel, are there not other variables to take into account or is the charge so critical?

What are your thoughts on this?

i am loading for hunting not target shooting so the group's i got were plenty good enough for me but the chap i was speaking to just before i done my test's shoot's 1000 yards comp's and goes well beyond what i did he told me to try as i did then when if find the best groups then to go in interval's of .1 of a grain up and down either side of what i had till i had the best i could get then once satisfied i had it as tight as poss then to adjust seating depth to further tighten it.

for me as i said what i had was plenty good enough for my hunting needs and doubt i will be going beyond 200 yards also the groups i did where all off my quads that i use when out hunting as i didn't want to test on a bench then shoot of stick's.

 

colin

[Dunkield]

Firstly I shoot quarry with expanding heads however can only use solids at local range is it possible to reload to get the same point of impact from both types if so how

 

Just use A Max, apparently it's both or neither depending on who you listen too