Dare I Say It

[wymberley]

We need to watch this like a hawk. I trust BASC, CA, et al are doing so. If we aren't careful it'll be NTS or nothing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42097801

[Yellow Bear]

I think this is the aim of the article, the main cause is stated as poison but they lead on shot as a cause.

[Uilleachan]

.... and where's the evidence that the lead found, in the liver i assume, came from shot and not other sources??? The Norwegians did a lot of work on this, including a study of lead affecting raptors. They lifted their blanket lead ban in 2015 (apart from over wet lands and clay grounds).  

[Scully]

And all so totally biased to point the finger of blame at one section of society.....namely shooters. You just couldn’t make it up.

[stagboy]

Hang on a minute, have you read the red kite research in question? I confess I haven't. But if there is good data (!) showing that scavenging kites are being poisoned by ingesting lead pellets from carcasses, then we have an impending problem and we will have to find a way to deal with that. Simply dissing the research without even seeing it is not very credible or sensible.

Lead is toxic, no doubt about that. But it is also a natural substance. We need to use it in a way that minimises the chance of it doing any damage to human health or the environment. I tend to think (hope!) that this can be done without a blanket ban on lead shot - but we need to be intelligent and forward thinking about this. 

I suspect that, as usual, the Beeb has given a rather selective summary.  But until we read the research, we won't know. That's where we need the research folk at BASC etc to investigate, before this story takes on a life of its own.

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

then we have an impending problem and we will have to find a way to deal with that.

I think a stiff letter should be sent to the red kites, telling them not to eat lead. Not sure why we have to deal with it, as it is outside our control.

Typical of the "There must be another way" or "Think of the children" syndrome.

Quote

but we need to be intelligent and forward thinking about this. 

I await your suggested solution with bated breath.

 

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, stagboy said:

Hang on a minute, have you read the red kite research in question? I confess I haven't. But if there is good data (!) showing that scavenging kites are being poisoned by ingesting lead pellets from carcasses, then we have an impending problem and we will have to find a way to deal with that. Simply dissing the research without even seeing it is not very credible or sensible.

Lead is toxic, no doubt about that. But it is also a natural substance. We need to use it in a way that minimises the chance of it doing any damage to human health or the environment. I tend to think (hope!) that this can be done without a blanket ban on lead shot - but we need to be intelligent and forward thinking about this. 

I suspect that, as usual, the Beeb has given a rather selective summary.  But until we read the research, we won't know. That's where we need the research folk at BASC etc to investigate, before this story takes on a life of its own.

 

I stopped reading round about the moment deliberate baiting via poisoned carcasses was mentioned. The report isn’t anything new. 

I don’t know who commissioned the report, do you? 

[stagboy]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t know who commissioned the report, do you? 

No, and that's a very good question. Follow the money...

[wymberley]

38 minutes ago, stagboy said:

Hang on a minute, have you read the red kite research in question? I confess I haven't. But if there is good data (!) showing that scavenging kites are being poisoned by ingesting lead pellets from carcasses, then we have an impending problem and we will have to find a way to deal with that. Simply dissing the research without even seeing it is not very credible or sensible.

Lead is toxic, no doubt about that. But it is also a natural substance. We need to use it in a way that minimises the chance of it doing any damage to human health or the environment. I tend to think (hope!) that this can be done without a blanket ban on lead shot - but we need to be intelligent and forward thinking about this. 

I suspect that, as usual, the Beeb has given a rather selective summary.  But until we read the research, we won't know. That's where we need the research folk at BASC etc to investigate, before this story takes on a life of its own.

 

Best to be careful what you wish for. We're dealing with very clever people who may well have their own agenda (where have we seen this before?). For example, when you complete the wildfowling survey, pay particular attention to questions 7 and 8. Because if you answer 7 in a certain manner, you can not answer 8 as you might wish but you have to give an answer to continue - there should have been another option at 8. Ergo, if they ignore the comments and simply rely on the 'ticked boxes' then it's a fait accompli.

[Me matt]

BASC are already all over this...

Taken from a twitter post;

BASC says the evidence has been exaggerated to support claims that lead poisoning is a significant factor in the mortality rates of red kites in the UK.

A study in the European Journal of Wildlife Research has published details of post mortems and toxicology analysis of 162 red kites found dead between 1989 and 2007.

Despite the report focusing on poisoning and linking deaths with the consumption of lead, analysis of the figures showed that lead poisoning accounted for just 3.7 per cent of mortality – second lowest only behind metabolic bone disease.

Physical trauma, including collisions with power lines, was a far more significant factor, accounting for more than a quarter of the deaths. Infectious disease was also a notable cause of death at 17.9 per cent.

[Uilleachan]

It seems the report from "The European Journal of Wildlife Research" was published in 2010. I requested the full text but will have to wait on the outcome. There's a link here to the abstract page, which may or may not work for you. The abstract, all be it very short, makes no mention of lead shot.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232361176_Illegal_killing_slows_population_recovery_of_a_re-introduced_raptor_of_high_conservation_concern_-_the_Red_Kite_Milvus_milvus

There are a number of sources of lead emission into the environment most of them industrial. Here's a lead emissions map for the UK in 2015:

http://naei.beis.gov.uk/data/map-uk-das?pollutant_id=17

Note the north of the country, very low levels of lead shown. But where they are they just happen to coincide with the road network (and areas of high population density) e.g. I can see the A9 snaking through the central highlands from it's lead foot print.  Heavy metals, such as lead, are accumulative in organisms and found in higher concentrations the further up the food chain we look. Classic example is the plankton eating whale and lesser whales such as the killer whale dolphins etc.

I'm no red kite expert but I have spent a lot of time on the Black Isle, the local kite hot spot and as any casual easter ross observer will know; kites are seen in high numbers around roads scoping out road kill. 

So in lue of actual shot being recovered from kite digestive systems, gradual accumulation from wider environmental emission affected prey animals seems more likely. To my mind.  

[CaptainBeaky]

The full text of the article is available - the abstract on the researchgate page has a link in the text.

And no, the stats don't support the conclusion that replacing lead shot would have a significant effect.

[stagboy]

Very good response from BASC, putting lead poisoning mortality into context with other causes and making sensible suggestions. Shows the value of having an in-house research team.

 

 

[thepasty]

24 minutes ago, Uilleachan said:

Best not, as we'd just be painted as the villains when too much sherry's been quaffed and someone lets rip from the hip  

Better to have some slick shooting PR bod to get in touch to point out that it was a wonderful article and a timely reminder that all shot game or vermin should be removed from the field, as per BASC code of practice: Picking Up (1. Golden Rule 5: All game must be retrieved as soon as it's safe to do so). Just to let her know that we're doing our bit to keep shot game and vermin from becoming carrion, as a group.

probs best, I just hate the way the media go about their business of misleading people and no one does anythying. :(

[CaptainBeaky]

The full text of the article is available here

[Uilleachan]

11 minutes ago, thepasty said:

probs best, I just hate the way the media go about their business of misleading people and no one does anythying. :(

You and me both, but when it's a case of a journalist who's perhaps simply sought a quote from an "expert", and therefore doesn't feel the need to cross reference, the quote came from someone who was apparently a contributor to the study, it's always best to caw canny and leave it to those who can suck butter without having it melt, by way of countering such claims, as in the way BASC have responded.   

[stagboy]

12 minutes ago, thepasty said:

probs best, I just hate the way the media go about their business of misleading people and no one does anythying. :(

I know what you mean. But then, when our own side post things like this:

 

4 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I think a stiff letter should be sent to the red kites, telling them not to eat lead.

l

on a public forum, you have to wonder at our capacity to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[Uilleachan]

26 minutes ago, CaptainBeaky said:

The full text of the article is available here

Thanks. 

[stagboy]

3 hours ago, Uilleachan said:

There are a number of sources of lead emission into the environment most of them industrial. Here's a lead emissions map for the UK in 2015:

http://naei.beis.gov.uk/data/map-uk-das?pollutant_id=17

Fascinating map. But it occurs to me that it only shows airborne emissions; large parts of the Pennines - particularly in Durham and south Northumberland - are littered with hundreds of abandoned lead mines, many with old spoil heaps which surely contain lead dust. I wonder if all this stuff, much of it lying on the surface in right-to-roam land, has ever been investigated/evaluated? 

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

 

I know what you mean. But then, when our own side post things like this:

 

4 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I think a stiff letter should be sent to the red kites, telling them not to eat lead.

l

on a public forum, you have to wonder at our capacity to shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

 

You post an opinion, saying we have to do something, based on a report that you have not read. You have no suggestions, but then decide to have a pop. I was way too kind. Your response was amateurish at best, surpassed by your last offering.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Uilleachan said:

Best not, as we'd just be painted as the villains when too much sherry's been quaffed and someone lets rip from the hip  

Better to have some slick shooting PR bod to get in touch to point out that it was a wonderful article and a timely reminder that all shot game or vermin should be removed from the field, as per BASC code of practice: Picking Up (1. Golden Rule 5: All game must be retrieved as soon as it's safe to do so). Just to let her know that we're doing our bit to keep shot game and vermin from becoming carrion, as a group.

But if you do nothing she’s got away with it! Ah well.

All it takes........

[Uilleachan]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

But if you do nothing she’s got away with it! Ah well.

All it takes........

I'm not a pistol shooter and, I'm only relating what I've read; but I've read that some of the individual submissions sent in during the post Dunblane consultation had quite the opposite effect than that intended by the writers. Enough to tip the balance. All it takes is one dodgy communication to spoil it for the many. Hence why I badger my shooting body and have them deal with it.    

[stagboy]

17 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

 

 

You post an opinion, saying we have to do something, based on a report that you have not read. You have no suggestions, but then decide to have a pop. I was way too kind. Your response was amateurish at best, surpassed by your last offering.

I said we should let BASC look at it before jumping to conclusions. Which they did. Good stuff.

My point is that the self-important wittering of the "I think lead is wonderful I feed it to my grand-daughter every morning" brigade are a gift to the antis. 

 

[Gordon R]

You advocated doing something without first checking that the research was valid and we had a problem. You later said that BASC should be involved. You addressed your remarks to this forum suggesting we, as individuals, should be acting - hence my reply. 

 

Quote

Hang on a minute, have you read the red kite research in question? I confess I haven't. But if there is good data (!) showing that scavenging kites are being poisoned by ingesting lead pellets from carcasses, then we have an impending problem and we will have to find a way to deal with that. Simply dissing the research without even seeing it is not very credible or sensible.

Whilst "dissing"  the research (just who really speaks like that) might be unwise, over-reacting to a non problem would be equally unwise.

You need to read your own posts.

I will call a halt to your junior squabble, unless your ego demands that you be heard.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Gordon R

[stagboy]

Look, we're all on the same side (I hope) so let's move on. I have a life.