How do you cater for a long distance shot with rib in sight?

[DanBettin]

It'll take some explaining this, I've kind of touched on it before but I can't find anywhere at all that addresses what I'm on about.

I finally got around to buying a laser bore sight for my 12 gauge. Using it, I can see that at 25 yards, for example, the laser is on the bead. At 40/50 yards, the laser is increasingly above the bead. This is because I have some rib visible, which means the gun's ever so slightly pointing upwards, which matters more and more the further out a target/clay is.

If I flattened out the gun when mounted (i.e. see no rib at all), the laser remains on the bead so it is more accurate in that sense. The problem with shooting with this kind of sight picture (I know, because I've only just started with a better fit), is that you obscure a lot of your view, so regardless of what bird you're shooting at - it has to disappear behind the bead in order for you to shoot at it.

I struggle sometimes with the birds right out in the distance, and I think I'm usually below them. This could kind of explain why, can anyone give any insight into whether this should even matter that much? Does the pattern opening up take care of this anyway?

 

edit

Edited November 28, 2017 by DanBettin

[ips]

phew

I have no idea what the answer is as I don't see rib, bead or any lead. I look for the leading edge of a clay or the beak of a bird and stuff happens on its own.

with respect you are in danger of over analysing it ?

[bornfree]

Put your laser on eBay. They are no real use on a shotgun, its a dynamic tool its not aimed its pointed. Set up a straight going away clay and shoot it with full choke if you smoke it that's good enough.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, ips said:

phew

I have no idea what the answer is as I don't see rib, bead or any lead. I look for the leading edge of a clay or the beak of a bird and stuff happens on its own.

with respect you are in danger of over analysing it ?

This. People are understandably forever seeking a solution to better shooting, when in fact the only way to shoot better is to achieve a consistently correct and good gun mount and then practice, practice, practice. And then practice some more. Did I mention practice? 

Seriously, there are no shortcuts I’m afraid. 

I see no rib at all when I’m practising my mount and am totally unaware ( except peripherally ) of anything else but the target when shooting. 

[Ultrastu]

The biggest issue with long distance shots with a shot gun (40 yds  + ) is that  due to the extremely low bc of your average shot (no 4 -8 ) the pellets will loose energy very quickly and hence drop in trajectory from your point of aim. Yes this is counter acted by the opening up of the shot pattern to a certain extent (depending on choke. ) but the distance where you have to aim higher to account for drop is about the same distance that your pattern fails to be tight enough for your average quarry .and also the retained energy becomes too low. 

A full choke will obviously  extend this range some what .but the key is not to take really long shots for the 3 reasons above .

For my gun that max range is about 40 yds .a 50 yd shot is just a lottery as to if I will hit / kill the bird. 

[DanBettin]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

This. People are understandably forever seeking a solution to better shooting, when in fact the only way to shoot better is to achieve a consistently correct and good gun mount and then practice, practice, practice. And then practice some more. Did I mention practice? 

Seriously, there are no shortcuts I’m afraid. 

I see no rib at all when I’m practising my mount and am totally unaware ( except peripherally ) of anything else but the target when shooting. 

You're not saying the same as what ips is, I kind of agree with him - there's a lot of thought gone into this, probably far too much since it's a pretty instinctive thing, but that's most certainly not the same as me trying to shortcut it.

I guess what I'd ask is how you know your gun mount is 'good'. If the first time you mount the gun there's no rib, then the second there is, that's not good - that's inconsistency. Also, it's not good to practice what I'm doing poorly over and over again without tweaking my approach to progress.

 

Let me try and simplify what I'm asking - is it not a problem that the gun 'fits' less at a distance?

32 minutes ago, ips said:

phew

I have no idea what the answer is as I don't see rib, bead or any lead. I look for the leading edge of a clay or the beak of a bird and stuff happens on its own.

with respect you are in danger of over analysing it ?

Point taken, as I said above I agree with you.

I'm not making terrible progress, to be honest, it's only the birds in the distance that are causing me a bit of a headache so I'm trying to work out why.

I struggle with the notion of just disregarding the sight picture altogether and 'just shooting it'. That's not really practical, how much rib you see is pretty important, and how much lead is too, initially they're things you need to think about before you can get to a point where you don't need to think about it.

Edited November 28, 2017 by DanBettin

[Scully]

I don’t see how a gun can fit less at a distance! 

You could save yourself a lot of frustration by paying a good coach for a few lessons. He will soon tell you where you are going wrong and right. 

There is much information out there regarding gun mount, which is a personal thing. I like to see no rib at all or at the most a figure of eight if two beads are fitted. I couldn’t hit a thing if I saw a ski slope. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

27 minutes ago, Scully said:

This. People are understandably forever seeking a solution to better shooting, when in fact the only way to shoot better is to achieve a consistently correct and good gun mount and then practice, practice, practice. And then practice some more. Did I mention practice? 

Seriously, there are no shortcuts I’m afraid. 

I see no rib at all when I’m practising my mount and am totally unaware ( except peripherally ) of anything else but the target when shooting. 

As both IPS and Scully have said, we see no rib, the gun points where we look and if we read the bird or target correctly and give the required lead it will break or die.

[DanBettin]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t see how a gun can fit less at a distance! 

You could save yourself a lot of frustration by paying a good coach for a few lessons. He will soon tell you where you are going wrong and right. 

There is much information out there regarding gun mount, which is a personal thing. I like to see no rib at all or at the most a figure of eight if two beads are fitted. I couldn’t hit a thing if I saw a ski slope. 

Been led to believe a good fitting gun is one that you can consistently mount comfortably with your point of aim right as soon as it's mounted. That point of aim is valid for clays at one distance but it's a lot lower further out. If someone was to check my gun fit, wouldn't they check where I was pointing it?

9 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

As both IPS and Scully have said, we see no rib, the gun points where we look and if we read the bird or target correctly and give the required lead it will break or die.

To get there though, to a point where you're able to disregard the sight picture, you've definitely had to work some things out more consciously, surely.

 

By the way, these are honest questions. I'm not trying to prove a point, I'm wondering how to make sure that my approach is right before I can expect it to become second nature.

Edited November 28, 2017 by DanBettin

[Walker570]

Chuck the laser and go visit a GOOD stocker who can tell you if your gun fits. If it does or he sorts that for you then, mount the gun and look at the bird. I never see the gun barrels etc when I shoot.

[DanBettin]

Just now, Walker570 said:

Chuck the laser and go visit a GOOD stocker who can tell you if your gun fits. If it does or he sorts that for you then, mount the gun and look at the bird. I never see the gun barrels etc when I shoot.

How will he tell if it's a good gun fit? Does it not matter where it's pointing?

[Ultrastu]

6 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

As both IPS and Scully have said, we see no rib, the gun points where we look and if we read the bird or target correctly and give the required lead it will break or die.

That would depend entirely on the individual gun. 

I shot a mates ou .the other week as he couldn't hit a thing .when I asked him to take a shot at a bottle 20 yds away on the floor he mounted as he usually did .face pushed into the stock and seeing no rib .he fired  placing the bead jist under the biottle and missed 10 ft short .

I tried the same shot and mounted what I felt was good .seeing a massive amount of rib and a much higher on the stock cheek position .I hit the bottle full on. And I also placed the bottle on top of the bead .

Head position is critical .his was too low

And always shot under .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

Been led to believe a good fitting gun is one that you can consistently mount comfortably with your point of aim right as soon as it's mounted. That point of aim is valid for clays at one distance but it's a lot lower further out. If someone was to check my gun fit, wouldn't they check where I was pointing it?

To get there though, to a point where you're able to disregard the sight picture, you've definitely had to work some things out more consciously, surely.

I do not disregard the sight picture, my guns fit me so I see no rib, sometimes I am aware of a darkness below what I am looking at. Many years ago I lost the orange blade from the muzzle of my Beretta, I didn't notice until a Mate pointed it out. He had picked it up 3 stands earlier and wondered if I would ever notice.

15 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

As both IPS and Scully have said, we see no rib, the gun points where we look and if we read the bird or target correctly and give the required lead it will break or die.

 

3 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

That would depend entirely on the individual gun. 

I shot a mates ou .the other week as he couldn't hit a thing .when I asked him to take a shot at a bottle 20 yds away on the floor he mounted as he usually did .face pushed into the stock and seeing no rib .he fired  placing the bead jist under the biottle and missed 10 ft short .

I tried the same shot and mounted what I felt was good .seeing a massive amount of rib and a much higher on the stock cheek position .I hit the bottle full on. And I also placed the bottle on top of the bead .

Head position is critical .his was too low

And always shot under .

I agree, but as my guns all fit me, that is how it works for me.

[grrclark]

12 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

You're not saying the same as what ips is, I kind of agree with him - there's a lot of thought gone into this, probably far too much since it's a pretty instinctive thing, but that's most certainly not the same as me trying to shortcut it.

I guess what I'd ask is how you know your gun mount is 'good'. If the first time you mount the gun there's no rib, then the second there is, that's not good - that's inconsistency. Also, it's not good to practice what I'm doing poorly over and over again without tweaking my approach to progress.

 

Let me try and simplify what I'm asking - is it not a problem that the gun 'fits' less at a distance?

You are in real danger of overthinking things and trying to take too mechanical or theoretical approach.  Are you an engineer by any chance?

There are a whole host of things that you will discover when you start to shoot at more challenging targets that will eventually lead to you discovering there is not a one size fits all approach.

The sight picture that you have for different targets will change depending on the target and your sight picture will be unique to you.

For example if you are shooting say a springing teal on the way up and early in it's flight you may well have to swing through that target and lose sight of the bird, as it slows down you can point at it and at the transition point right at the top of the flight you can be just under it.

If you are shooting trap style targets then with the correct hold point you can look down past the barrel and shoot the clay just at the point it gets to the barrel almost having a dead stationary gun, or you might hold lower and take the gun up to meet the clay and pull the trigger to kill it that way with a moving gun.

If you are shooting a target that is going away from you and below your feet you may feel that you are holding crazy high above the clay, or if it is crossing you will feel as though you are crazy low, yet it still breaks.

There are countless other examples.  The point i'm trying to make is that sometimes you will effectively point right at the clay with the bead dead centre on the bird and other times you might float what looks like 6, 9 or 12 inches below the target.  New shooters often think about lead only being on one plane too, either to the left of a right to left bird or vice versa, but it operates on two planes and the more technical type targets you shoot at you will work that out.

What Scully, Tightchoke and IPS are saying is that you need to learn to shoot your gun and be able to read targets, you then build up your sight picture memory bank for your gun for a whole host of different target presentations.  With a consistent mount, which stems from the feet up and having solid fundamentals, then you will progress more quickly.

What these guys are also saying is that the more you shoot, the less you see the bead, it is an instinctive thing, you are aware of the barrels in your periphery, but you're not looking at them and you just know because you have learned the required relationship between gun and clay.  The only way you work that out is to shoot lots.

p.s. go to a good coach.  With respect forget about seeing a stocker or someone that harps on about gun fit, just go to see a good coach and take it from there.

 

[wymberley]

Ebay sounds good.

If you've picked a choke to deliver the goods at your predetermined maximum range with an accurate shot, then it's odds on if you're any more than a foot off (at best) with the centre of the pattern you're relying on luck.

If your eye is below the rib, you'll shoot low - well, you would if you could see. If your eye is middle to diddle, you'll shoot flat - except things can be a fad fuzzy. If your eyeball is sitting on the rib, you'll shoot high - how high is dependent upon just how high your eye is above the rib. Does 70/30 ring any bells?

The effective range of a shotgun is about 30 yards, perhaps a tad more. At the end of the day, you need to see so it is inevitable that you're going to shoot high. Gun fit will ensure that you shoot at a manageable height. Should you decide that your effective range is between 20 and 50 yards - or thereabouts - then dependent upon how you like to see your target in relation to the peripheral view of the rib you need to check that your pattern centre achieves that view at, say, 35 yards. Then you're covered for the 20 to 50. Obviously, this will alter dependent upon whether you're shooting clays or game

70/30? are the traditional percentages of the pattern centre above and below the bird when game shooting.

[Walker570]

As said by Tightchoke    The description of the shooting at the plastic bottle indicates 'aiming' like a rifle. A shotgun is not a rifle. It is more instinctive shooting and being able to envisage where the shotgun will 'throw' the shot. If you point your finger at something , you don't 'aim' along your finger, it is an instinctive movement, hence the shotgun has to fit you like another arm and only a good stocker can tell you if it does.  

 

on edit in respect of comments above, most of which I agree with .... gun fit is very important. A good coach will be able to help you some, but if your gun is way out of fit then both of you will be struggling. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Walker570

[DanBettin]

27 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I do not disregard the sight picture, my guns fit me so I see no rib, sometimes I am aware of a darkness below what I am looking at.

I definitely get this, and I'm at a level where I also don't consciously focus on the bead, but I'm aware of where it is in relation to the target, since this will determine whether I need to bring my gun up to meet it or, basically, where I should be looking then to place the shot. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

If your gun fits and your mount is consistently good, you look at the target and the gun will be pointing where you are looking and then the computer in your head makes the decision about required lead, the trigger is pulled, the cartridge functions, the pellets are delivered and the target breaks.

The computer in your head requires a lot of input to get to the point where it becomes almost automatic, I occasionally have time to think about lead consciously but that is only on very long targets.

[grrclark]

27 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

on edit in respect of comments above, most of which I agree with .... gun fit is very important. A good coach will be able to help you some, but if your gun is way out of fit then both of you will be struggling. 

It is important of course, if the gun is way out then you are fighting an uphill battle, but so very often the gun fit is a result of bad posture and setup and that needs a coach.  Get the fundamentals sorted and once those are solid then fine tune.

[DanBettin]

29 minutes ago, grrclark said:

You are in real danger of overthinking things and trying to take too mechanical or theoretical approach.  Are you an engineer by any chance?

There are a whole host of things that you will discover when you start to shoot at more challenging targets that will eventually lead to you discovering there is not a one size fits all approach.

The sight picture that you have for different targets will change depending on the target and your sight picture will be unique to you.

For example if you are shooting say a springing teal on the way up and early in it's flight you may well have to swing through that target and lose sight of the bird, as it slows down you can point at it and at the transition point right at the top of the flight you can be just under it.

If you are shooting trap style targets then with the correct hold point you can look down past the barrel and shoot the clay just at the point it gets to the barrel almost having a dead stationary gun, or you might hold lower and take the gun up to meet the clay and pull the trigger to kill it that way with a moving gun.

If you are shooting a target that is going away from you and below your feet you may feel that you are holding crazy high above the clay, or if it is crossing you will feel as though you are crazy low, yet it still breaks.

There are countless other examples.  The point i'm trying to make is that sometimes you will effectively point right at the clay with the bead dead centre on the bird and other times you might float what looks like 6, 9 or 12 inches below the target.  New shooters often think about lead only being on one plane too, either to the left of a right to left bird or vice versa, but it operates on two planes and the more technical type targets you shoot at you will work that out.

What Scully, Tightchoke and IPS are saying is that you need to learn to shoot your gun and be able to read targets, you then build up your sight picture memory bank for your gun for a whole host of different target presentations.  With a consistent mount, which stems from the feet up and having solid fundamentals, then you will progress more quickly.

What these guys are also saying is that the more you shoot, the less you see the bead, it is an instinctive thing, you are aware of the barrels in your periphery, but you're not looking at them and you just know because you have learned the required relationship between gun and clay.  The only way you work that out is to shoot lots.

p.s. go to a good coach.  With respect forget about seeing a stocker or someone that harps on about gun fit, just go to see a good coach and take it from there.

 

Got it in one, I'm a software engineer so I make a living from over-thinking things. But if I'm hitting a blocker and not managing to smash targets - then I'm bound to look at analysing it a bit at least.

[DanBettin]

44 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Ebay sounds good.

If you've picked a choke to deliver the goods at your predetermined maximum range with an accurate shot, then it's odds on if you're any more than a foot off (at best) with the centre of the pattern you're relying on luck.

If your eye is below the rib, you'll shoot low - well, you would if you could see. If your eye is middle to diddle, you'll shoot flat - except things can be a fad fuzzy. If your eyeball is sitting on the rib, you'll shoot high - how high is dependent upon just how high your eye is above the rib. Does 70/30 ring any bells?

My point is that this is valid at certain distances is it not? Since I'll be shooting higher on closer clays?

Basically, I was shooting with no rib, and hitting the clays left, right and centre. But noticed on the further clays, the idea of blotting out a clay from a distance didn't work since I needed to see the path of the clay I was trying to shoot! So I started mounting my gun to see a bit of rib, and coincidentally it's more comfortable. But now it's at an angle, which I think is giving me more problems.

The general consensus here is to stop thinking about it and just shoot, but from a practical sense what does that mean I do next time I go out? I'm even starting to annoy myself now, and it seems like I'm being stubborn with this for the sake of it but I'm just thinking, how should the gun fit? What is my sight picture and where is that clay in my sight picture when I pull the trigger? I reckon they're very real questions.

I've had a few lessons, when I seen no rib I done well on them, so no faults were picked up on - but it wasn't ideal making the clays disappear on every target (as opposed to just the driven/rising ones).

 

-------------------------

Btw, thanks for all the replies so far! Appreciate the wisdom of shooters that are obviously better than me, I don't mean to seem impatient, just trying to work out what's what.

Edited November 28, 2017 by DanBettin

[Ultrastu]

Just as an addition to my story above. 

When we figured out why my mate was shooting low..and then me trying to explain my gun mount on his gun .i stuck with black gaffer tape a 10 mm high bit of plastic i found in my bag ( a cut section of a .410 shell ) on to his gun at the breech so he could effectivley line up the plastic with the barrel bead  like open sights on a rifle.this stopped his head dropping too low on the stock and he then proceeded to hit the bottle from 10 out to 40 yds by aiming like a rifle the bottle just on the top of the bead .as per normal .

He is very pleased as he now knows and can see the correct gun mount to shoot his gun to hit stuff .I offered to make a permanent "rear sight " 

But he likes the old .410 cart stuck to his gun as is .cos it works .for him 

 

 

[grrclark]

4 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

Got it in one, I'm a software engineer so I make a living from over-thinking things. But if I'm hitting a blocker and not managing to smash targets - then I'm bound to look at analysing it a bit at least.

There were a couple of things that helped turn the lights on for me, one is that I regularly shoot with some fellas that are VERY good and had some really insightful coaching.

I also got involved in setting targets too and have now down a bucket load of sportrap, sporting and fitasc shoots, including championships, and that really taught me that nothing is straight forward.  You can beat people with what appear to be the most ludicrously simple targets, but that are subtly doing a couple of different things.  It really is so much more than set the bead on the bird and pull the trigger.

[Ultrastu]

Obviously a red dot would sort all the above issues the op is having .but they have been covered in another thread last month 

[TIGHTCHOKE]