The Strange Death Of Europe...

[stagboy]

Dalrymple is great. 

[Retsdon]

41 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Lets get this straight, there is nothing wrong with immigration, as long as its controlled.

Not sure I'd agree with this. I'd start at the opposite end of the stick and say that immigration is basically a negative and go from there. Too few doctors? Build more medical schools. Not enough babies being born? Put in place the social and economic conditions that encourage young couples to have children. The notion that the country should import foreigners to fill every need is like eating every meal from tge takeaway  rather than just learning to cook properly and organizing the larder.

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Not sure I'd agree with this. I'd start at the opposite end of the stick and say that immigration is basically a negative and go from there. Too few doctors? Build more medical schools. Not enough babies being born? Put in place the social and economic conditions that encourage young couples to have children. The notion that the country should import foreigners to fill every need is like eating every meal from tge takeaway  rather than just learning to cook properly and organizing the larder.

Mmm ,arent you an immigrant ? ?

I see what you are saying , but you cant MAKE people do things, what would be the social and economic conditions that make white UK couples have babies ?
Perhaps promise them more money in benefits than they could ever hope to earn on their own merits? Ooops !
Only problem is , that works for everybody else too.And is a major attraction for migrants.
Build more medical schools= more foreign students, any English doctors coming out of them get sick of doing 60 hour weeks on the NHS ,so go to the US ,Canada and OZ for more money ,less hours and a better lifestyle.

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Mmm ,arent you an immigrant ? ?

I see what you are saying , but you cant MAKE people do things, what would be the social and economic conditions that make white UK couples have babies ?
Perhaps promise them more money in benefits than they could ever hope to earn on their own merits? Ooops !
Only problem is , that works for everybody else too.And is a major attraction for migrants.
Build more medical schools= more foreign students, any English doctors coming out of them get sick of doing 60 hour weeks on the NHS ,so go to the US ,Canada and OZ for more money ,less hours and a better lifestyle.

It is vital to train more kids to provide the skills we need. Years ago every hospital had a nurse's school and trained their own nurses. The student nurses lived in the nurses home and got paid while they trained

Somewhere along the way that has gone by the board. Creating the situation where we are totally dependant on foreign nurses. Every town had a Technical College, where are they now?

Anybody on here got a son or nephew who has tried to get an apprenticeship to be a motor mechanic or an electrician recently? Its nigh on impossible

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

It is vital to train more kids to provide the skills we need. Years ago every hospital had a nurse's school and trained their own nurses. The student nurses lived in the nurses home and got paid while they trained

Somewhere along the way that has gone by the board. Creating the situation where we are totally dependant on foreign nurses. Every town had a Technical College, where are they now?

Anybody on here got a son or nephew who has tried to get an apprenticeship to be a motor mechanic or an electrician recently? Its nigh on impossible

Good question, but who would want to be a motor mechanic ,when they are trying to phase out piston driven cars in the next 20 years ?

The nurse one is an excellent example though.
What skills do we import ,and what could be done to provide 'home grown' kids with useful careers ?
It seems to me these days, for every person who actually makes something, there are 4 people doing admin or transportation for the item made, then another 2 people in local and central government to admin further !
A nation of shopkeepers, selling produce we have to buy in from abroad to our own populace.
Makes you wonder how we have any GDP at all ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Good question, but who would want to be a motor mechanic ,when they are trying to phase out piston driven cars in the next 20 years ?

The nurse one is an excellent example though.
What skills do we import ,and what could be done to provide 'home grown' kids with useful careers ?
It seems to me these days, for every person who actually makes something, there are 4 people doing admin or transportation for the item made, then another 2 people in local and central government to admin further !
A nation of shopkeepers, selling produce we have to buy in from abroad to our own populace.
Makes you wonder how we have any GDP at all ?

That is a major part of the problem!

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Mmm ,arent you an immigrant ?

No, I'm a migrant worker hired to do a specified job for a specified employer for a specified period of time. From the moment my contact lapses or is not renewed I have 3 weeks to leave the country.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

what would be the social and economic conditions that make white UK couples have babies ?

I have 2 nephews (late 20s, early 30s) both of whom are well -educated, in comparatively well-paying jobs, who are both in long term relationships with equally well-educated, well-paid girlfriends. All four of them - nephews and GFs-  are stuck in London (because that's where the jobs are),  paying huge amounts of money to rent cramped living space while working stupid hours for trans-national  corporations. Where do the babies fit in?  At a time when they and their friends are in the prime of fecundity, and when in forner generations they'd have all been starting families, they're living in boxes in Battersea with no feasible exit plan in sight. It seems like  it's fast becoming the case that  the only people in Britain who can afford to have families are the very rich, the very poor, or apparently the newly arrived immigrants. Certainly the indigenous tax-paying middle-classes are being actively discouraged from indulging in parenthood. Giving them some incentives would be a good place to start.

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

No, I'm a migrant worker hired to do a specified job for a specified employer for a specified period of time. From the moment my contact lapses or is not renewed I have 3 weeks to leave the country.
I wasnt trying to be offensive , and of course you are absolutely correct.

 

I have 2 nephews (late 20s, early 30s) both of whom are well -educated, in comparatively well-paying jobs, who are both in long term relationships with equally well-educated, well-paid girlfriends. All four of them - nephews and GFs-  are stuck in London (because that's where the jobs are),  paying huge amounts of money to rent cramped living space while working stupid hours for trans-national  corporations. Where do the babies fit in?  At a time when they and their friends are in the prime of fecundity, and when in forner generations they'd have all been starting families, they're living in boxes in Battersea with no feasible exit plan in sight. It seems like  it's fast becoming the case that  the only people in Britain who can afford to have families are the very rich, the very poor, or apparently the newly arrived immigrants. Certainly the indigenous tax-paying middle-classes are being actively discouraged from indulging in parenthood. Giving them some incentives would be a good place to start.

An incentive of what exactly? Money , tax breaks, a house ?
You cant really give it them, and not people who are possibly less well off or educated.
Do they even want kids? Im sure they are happy as they are at the moment.

This is a Europe wide issue, and whilst most of the older generation sort of buy into the idea that all the migrants will some day pay their pensions out of all the income tax they will (one day) be paying, the reality, if you think about it, is that its never going to work like that.

Its more likely that once this country has been thoroughly pillaged, the migrants will go back to where they came from, as it will be a better place to be than here.
Your nephews and their girlfriends would be better off relocating if Im honest.
 

[Retsdon]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

An incentive of what exactly? 

Some proper long-term strategic planning for the future of the nation - something that in days gone past was the  bread and butter of government business. If more half the population of London are, by their own definition, either immigrants or the children of immigrants then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that there is going to be a massive squeeze on the supply of available housing suitable for raising children in. So either a) more housing needs to be built or b) the demand needs to be damped to nothing. Or maybe c) companies and employers need to be properly incentivized to move out of the South East. Better still, d) a combination of all three. 

Will anything be done? Nope.

... because government these days is not about discharging one's duty, it"s about pandering to special interest groups whilst keeping an eye out for lucrative post-political directorships or employment. 

 

 

 

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Some proper long-term strategic planning for the future of the nation - something that in days gone past was the  bread and butter of government business. If more half the population of London are, by their own definition, either immigrants or the children of immigrants then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that there is going to be a massive squeeze on the supply of available housing suitable for raising children in. So either a) more housing needs to be built or b) the demand needs to be damped to nothing. Or maybe c) companies and employers need to be properly incentivized to move out of the South East. Better still, d) a combination of all three. 

Will anything be done? Nope.

... because government these days is not about discharging one's duty, it"s about pandering to special interest groups whilst keeping an eye out for lucrative post-political directorships or employment. 

 

All correct, but it wouldnt make any difference if we stopped all immigration tomorrow, certain demographics will double their numbers through birth alone in the next 20 years.

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I wasnt trying to be offensive , and of course you are absolutely correct.

 

Sorry, I never saw this. No offence taken at all.

But actually it's interesting. Nobody I know who works under the same terms of contact as I do had any problem with our status at all. Nobody feels hard done by that we or our families are not offered citizenship, or benefits, or that we can"t build churches in Riyadh and ring the bells 5 times a day. It"s Arabia and it"s the Arabs' country and they can make whatever rules they want to. And if I don't"t like it then I can leave. And what's wrong with that? I think there's nothing at all wrong with it.

Now, I can't help thinking that immigrants into Europe, faced with the same take it or leave it choice would have no problem either. The problems really stem from a bizarre, wishy-washy liberal mindset that has pervaded European political thinking. And this mindset somehow believes that it"s morally necessary to invite the jobbing gardener you brought in to cut the hedge into the house wholesale, and that he and his family should now join your own family in perpetuity. Even give them equal shares in granddad's willl and move the kids into one bedroom to make space.  Why not? Surely anything else would be some kind of 'Xist.'

Of course, this is jam for the gardener and his family but not necessarily such a good thing for you and yours. But apparently it just has to be done.

Well, as a jobbing gardener I state categorically that it doesn't have to be done. All over the world there are ex-pat workers doing contract to contract perfectly happily with no feeling of resentment at all. Why should incomers to Europe and Britain be any different?

Edited May 24, 2018 by Retsdon

[Rewulf]

43 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Sorry, I never saw this. No offence taken at all.

But actually it's interesting. Nobody I know who works under the same terms of contact as I do had any problem with our status at all. Nobody feels hard done by that we or our families are not offered citizenship, or benefits, or that we can"t build churches in Riyadh and ring the bells 5 times a day. It"s Arabia and it"s the Arabs' country and they can make whatever rules they want to. And if I don't"t like it then I can leave. And what's wrong with that? I think there's nothing at all wrong with it.

Now, I can't help thinking that immigrants into Europe, faced with the same take it or leave it choice would have no problem either. The problems really stem from a bizarre, wishy-washy liberal mindset that has pervaded European political thinking. And this mindset somehow believes that it"s morally necessary to invite the jobbing gardener you brought in to cut the hedge into the house wholesale, and that he and his family should now join your own family in perpetuity. Even give them equal shares in granddad's willl and move the kids into one bedroom to make space.  Why not? Surely anything else would be some kind of 'Xist.'

Of course, this is jam for the gardener and his family but not necessarily such a good thing for you and yours. But apparently it just has to be done.

Well, as a jobbing gardener I state categorically that it doesn't have to be done. All over the world there are ex-pat workers doing contract to contract perfectly happily with no feeling of resentment at all. Why should incomers to Europe and Britain be any different?

Cant argue with that at all .

[old man]

7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The answer is simple, they come because they can. People will always want a better life, you would do the same. Its the most natural human desire in the world to want to improve your situation.

The trouble is they can't all come, most politicians are frozen like a rabbit in the headlights because they can't say publically what they are thinking privately.   So they say nothing and do nothing, hoping we won't notice.

Sadly, correct once again. We should not blame those taking advantage but blame those facilitating it.

Namely countless spineless politicos working to an unseen agenda which will probably bankrupt us?

[old man]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Sorry, I never saw this. No offence taken at all.

But actually it's interesting. Nobody I know who works under the same terms of contact as I do had any problem with our status at all. Nobody feels hard done by that we or our families are not offered citizenship, or benefits, or that we can"t build churches in Riyadh and ring the bells 5 times a day. It"s Arabia and it"s the Arabs' country and they can make whatever rules they want to. And if I don't"t like it then I can leave. And what's wrong with that? I think there's nothing at all wrong with it.

Now, I can't help thinking that immigrants into Europe, faced with the same take it or leave it choice would have no problem either. The problems really stem from a bizarre, wishy-washy liberal mindset that has pervaded European political thinking. And this mindset somehow believes that it"s morally necessary to invite the jobbing gardener you brought in to cut the hedge into the house wholesale, and that he and his family should now join your own family in perpetuity. Even give them equal shares in granddad's willl and move the kids into one bedroom to make space.  Why not? Surely anything else would be some kind of 'Xist.'

Of course, this is jam for the gardener and his family but not necessarily such a good thing for you and yours. But apparently it just has to be done.

Well, as a jobbing gardener I state categorically that it doesn't have to be done. All over the world there are ex-pat workers doing contract to contract perfectly happily with no feeling of resentment at all. Why should incomers to Europe and Britain be any different?

The difference here is that everyone who comes, immediately decides they don't like our ways and starts to undermine and disrupt to their own benefit, the benefits system excepted? Meanwhile our home grown bone idle sector proliferates maybe?

[Retsdon]

Well, I just finished the whole book. Negatives? It could have been better edited and 100 pages shorter. At times it becomes a bit directionless and repetitive. Positives? It's not just a rant about immigration. Murray also delves into a crisis of core values and certainties (something that he largely attributes tothe decline of a common Christian identity ) which has given rise to an unwillingness or even inability to  try and address the Big Questions -  who we are, what we"re striving  for, what we want our legacy to  be. Instead we have drifted into an all pervading shallowness that manifests in the trivialization of politics, the cynicism or sentimentality of art, and the obsession with terminology in modern philosophy to the extent that real ideas are strangled at birth. All of which renders Europe singularly unprepared to face the momentous challenge of mass-migration.

All in all it's pretty depressing stuff as the author himself acknowledges when he admits in the epilogue to having had very mixed feelings about the book reaching number 1 on the Sunday Times best seller lists. 

Is it worth reading? That depends. If you're the sort of person who doesn't believe in getting medical check-ups for fear of discovering something nasty, then no - because reading this book is like being told that pain you've been suspicious about is quite likely terminal. On the other hand, if you like to know what's probably coming down the pike and plan accordingly, then give it a read.

[AVB]

On 24/05/2018 at 20:25, Rewulf said:

Good question, but who would want to be a motor mechanic ,when they are trying to phase out piston driven cars in the next 20 years ?

The nurse one is an excellent example though.
What skills do we import ,and what could be done to provide 'home grown' kids with useful careers ?
It seems to me these days, for every person who actually makes something, there are 4 people doing admin or transportation for the item made, then another 2 people in local and central government to admin further !
A nation of shopkeepers, selling produce we have to buy in from abroad to our own populace.
Makes you wonder how we have any GDP at all ?

That was one of the reasons behind the death of the Investment Banking Industry. When I started out the ratio of income generators to support staff was 1:1. Now it is 1:4 or worse. You can’t move for tripping over a compliance officer! 

[amateur]

5 hours ago, AVB said:

That was one of the reasons behind the death of the Investment Banking Industry. When I started out the ratio of income generators to support staff was 1:1. Now it is 1:4 or worse. You can’t move for tripping over a compliance officer! 

Aaah yes!, but wasn't that because the "income generators" often played fast and loose and either broke the regulations or generated losses?

Nick Leeson or Barclays, anyone?

Edited May 27, 2018 by amateur

[armsid]

there have been a lot of very good points made here .As an engineer in coventry i watched with dismay as technical colleges closed and engineering firms closed. this happened after the vote to join what was then the EEC, they moved to europe or closed as cheaper goods flooded the market.When companies wanted labour they went to europe or elsewhere reason ?our schools were not teaching engineering there were not enough companies and worst of all no colleges or even lecturers .The accountants said it is cheaper to import the skills than train our own hence we dont make anything here that generates the high wages needed to fund NHS etc through taxation 

[amateur]

But ...... I used to work as FD for a defence company who made defence optical components from scratch, using local skilled and semi-skilled labour. 

We were able to source the same components for the same or better quality from China at 2/3 the price. It was a no-brainer, particularly as the MOD were always chiselling the price.

We kept our highly paid design and engineering staff, but out-sourced all the lower-skilled work - much cheaper and less hassle

[AVB]

2 hours ago, amateur said:

Aaah yes!, but wasn't that because the "income generators" often played fast and loose and either broke the regulations or generated losses?

Nick Leeson or Barclays, anyone?

Somewhat true. ‘Twas more fun though! 

[Westward]

On 24/05/2018 at 12:25, Rewulf said:

Makes you wonder how we have any GDP at all ?

Well the good old EU invented a new way of calculating GDP. Instead of it being the sum total of revenues generated by industry, business and commerce they added in things like private consumption (which is why they all panic over high street spending), investment and some government spending in order to mask the fact that most EU member states run both a trade deficit, a fiscal deficit and have unstoppable growth in their national debt.

GDP figures are therefore so vague as to be almost meaningless, hence the rise in "think tanks" which are basically totally unproductive discussion groups made up from time warp students who've never seen the inside of a factory and in consequence are almost always wrong about everything and the constant negativity emanating from Mark (Jonah) Carney who never wastes any opportunity to undermine the economy.

The guessing game is whether it'll be financial meltdown, populist dissatisfaction or uncontrolled immigration that destroys the EU.