To FAC or not to FAC

[crow]

17g hmr was no good for me cause i could not shoot it into the trees even in the middle of a national park. so stuck with fac air for tree shots.

its a pain taking two rifles.

56 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Also the  bullet shape of it .would mean it should retain more energy down range than a similar weight pellet .and the fallout risks that would incure .

You could allways shoot slugs from your .22 fac air. ? 

my fac is 29.8fpe. slugs would just slow it down. it shoots jsb exact best.

[Ultrastu]

Will your .22 air not reach out far enough for you on land based quarry ? 

Possibly consider a .25 air .

Almost (and in some cases more ) reach than a .22lr .and somewhat less risk for tree shots but still need cafeful consideration .

Fx bull pup .25 cal at 50 fpe 

[bruno22rf]

Struggling again here Stu....so a (usually less than) 30.g .25 fired at 50ft/lb has more range (reach) than a 40.g .22lr leaving the barrel at just over 130 ft/lb? To assist you I would like to add that the RWS HV HP that I use is still carrying over 70ft/lb in it's trousers at 200 yards.

Edited September 11, 2018 by bruno22rf

[Ultrastu]

If only it were as simple as ."more muzzle energy equals more accuracy and further distance ."

We would have nothing to discuss and we would just all go out and buy a .308 

As deckers above pointed out .it has a lot to do with spin rate .velocity and projectile  design .

A pellet is aerodynamicly  stable and to a certain degree self correcting in flight  .a bullet (boat tail ) isnt and the heaviest bit is usually at the rear. So the bullet would tumble if it werent spin stabilized. So a 20 grn pellet and a 20 grn bullet only have the weight in common and very little else. 

 

[Ultrastu]

Just now, bruno22rf said:

Struggling again here Stu....so a (usually less than) 30.g .25 fired at 50ft/lb has more range (reach) than a 40.g .22lr leaving the barrel at just over 130 ft/lb? To assist you I would like to add that the RWS HV HP that I use is still carrying over 70ft/lb in it's trousers at 200 yards.

Ive seen many .22 lr bullets out of guns that struggle to hold a 2 inch group at 50 yds. And by 75 yds are useless. 

By comparison my competition ultra .177 sub .will print a 1/4 - 1/2 inch group at 50 yds. And hold a 2 inch at 75 . (Wind permitting ) 

Power doesnt control accuracy .

When a .25 fac air can reliably take head shot rabbits around 80 yds then its a potent tool and is worthy of consideration against a .22lr .

 

That all im saying. 

[bruno22rf]

You are side stepping the issue me old m8 - the .22rf is well known worldwide for it's accuracy and the fact that you have seen a couple of, clearly, scrap rifles has no bearing on your statement that the .25 can "in some cases" reach further than the .22lr. What you should have said is that you have experienced a couple of .22lr rifles so knackered that they might not compete ,accuracy wise, over your brand new shiny .25? We all know that power does not equate to accuracy but the assumption that your average (i.e. in reasonable condition) .22lr is incapable of competing in either accuracy or power stakes down range against a .25 Airgun is bordering on fantasy. By comparison to your sub - a decent .22lr will print those groups at 100 yards in the same conditions. You have yourself an expensive top of the game .25 Airgun - if you allow the same expenditure on a .22lr (something along the lines of an Annie Match) you will be looking sub 1" at 200 yards - unless, of course, one of your mates has a completely ******** one of those as well?

[Ultrastu]

Fair enough .

Your right a good .22 lr is amazingly accurate. Never said they cant be .

 

[Mice!]

Always entertaining you guys, i see a shoot off is needed 🤩

Ultrastu Vs bruno22rf 

Shinny.25 sci fi Airgun Vs ( unknown ) 22rf 

50 yards 90yards and 200 ( just for fun)

you wouldn't believe how big my spoon is.

[Ultrastu]

Well the test would include. 

The range accuracy./groups. And 1 shot kill on steel .

Also terminal  ballistic peformance on clay and gel at 25  50  75  100  200 yds. 

The above should show. How capable the guns are at grouping and also the ability of the shooter /and gun to judge wind and range to make a 1 shot kill. 

The ballistic tests would show. How effective on quarry the projectiles are at range and also how much energy they carry down range. (For risk and performance ) 

Have to admit. I can easily do the above tests .air v lr. 

But havent yet as i tend to just get on and hunt with my guns .

But if i find time my mates .22 lr sako should give my wildcat a good work out 

[Ultrastu]

Id predict (but would have to confirm )

That on the clay tests. Looking for depth v width of hole .

Id say up to 75 yds the .25 would perform better. Meaning it gives a wider and shallower hole than the .22 lr 

Beyond id say the better bc and retained energy of the .22lr would mean it  makes a wider but still deeper hole. Than the. 25 ..

At 200 yds id say the .22lr still punches right through clay with a narrow hole and the .25 fails to make much impact on the clay in either respect .

As for the gel .the .22lr .will always penetrate deeper at every range. 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ultrastu

[Ultrastu]

If the above is correct then up to 75 yds the .25 would "hit " quarry harder and be more effective than the .22lr .

Beyond the .22 lr would have the advantage but would also carry more fallout risk. Lets be conservative 

Say the .25 is good out to 75 yds and the .22lr 100 yds is that extra 25 yds of the .22lr worth the extra risk of ricochet and while giving away better terminal performance to the .25 at most of the ranges we find and take quarry .??? 

[Dekers]

2 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

If the above is correct then up to 75 yds the .25 would "hit " quarry harder and be more effective than the .22lr .

Beyond the .22 lr would have the advantage but would also carry more fallout risk. Lets be conservative 

Say the .25 is good out to 75 yds and the .22lr 100 yds is that extra 25 yds of the .22lr worth the extra risk of ricochet and while giving away better terminal performance to the .25 at most of the ranges we find and take quarry .??? 

I'm getting lost, is that guesswork or statistical fact?

What .22LR ammo, what .25 FAC Air and what power all round, etc etc?

[Ultrastu]

A bit of guess work .based on testing a lot of other cals at different ranges and powers. 

Based on .22lr subsonic 40 grn hollow point 1050 fps . And .25 jsb kings  24 grn at 880 fps .

 

As i said above ,i havent actually done the those tests  .so anyone would be wise to experiment themselves before taking it as gosple .

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Looking for depth v width of hole .

Always the same 😂😂

its got you all thinking anyway 

[bruno22rf]

Why are you thinking subs? I'm not suggesting you use Felt pellets. My round of choice is the RWS HV HP ( ok it's a top performer but I use it almost exclusively and have championed it's performance many times previously) so lets start the Air .25 versus Powder burning .22 Top Trumps - the RWS (in ballistic Putty) expands to just under .4", penetrates 9" deep leaving a wound channel 3" wide in places and parks up leaving a void large enough to soak up just under 400ml of liquid. Tested on Shooting UK article in 2013 at 50 yards. It is also worth noting that you cite 100 yards for the .22 and mention the paltry 25 yards range advantage over the .25 - pick up a decent Match .22lr and we are talking 200 yards in IDEAL conditions and still enough retained energy to Roger your .25 ragged.

[Dekers]

9 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

Why are you thinking subs? I'm not suggesting you use Felt pellets. My round of choice is the RWS HV HP ( ok it's a top performer but I use it almost exclusively and have championed it's performance many times previously) so lets start the Air .25 versus Powder burning .22 Top Trumps - the RWS (in ballistic Putty) expands to just under .4", penetrates 9" deep leaving a wound channel 3" wide in places and parks up leaving a void large enough to soak up just under 400ml of liquid. Tested on Shooting UK article in 2013 at 50 yards. It is also worth noting that you cite 100 yards for the .22 and mention the paltry 25 yards range advantage over the .25 - pick up a decent Match .22lr and we are talking 200 yards in IDEAL conditions and still enough retained energy to Roger your .25 ragged.

The .22lr is perfectly capable of 200 yards, we use it quite regularly at Bisley at that distance and on a very good day it produces results which would surprise many.  Just the same I would not consider it a 200yard field round!

[bruno22rf]

Not an ideal round Dekers by any means but still capable - if it can punch sub 1" groups at 200 yards on paper and still carry 70ft/lb+ then it can ruin a Rabbits day at the same range. There are, of course, very many rounds that will make the .22lr look pants but when you consider it's efficiency and the diversity of the available Ammo for the humble 22lr you have to accept that it is a heck of a round.

[strimmer_13]

Just asking as these are getting slightly heated, would you trust your .25 to take a fox at 50-75 yards? My .22 with mini mags has accounted for dozens at this range but would be interested as I'm also thinking maybe I need a fac air in my cabinet for spaces and ranges where my .22 wouldn't be ideal and probably closer than that. 

As I side not I have never used a fac airgun before. 

[Dekers]

3 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

Not an ideal round Dekers by any means but still capable - if it can punch sub 1" groups at 200 yards on paper and still carry 70ft/lb+ then it can ruin a Rabbits day at the same range. There are, of course, very many rounds that will make the .22lr look pants but when you consider it's efficiency and the diversity of the available Ammo for the humble 22lr you have to accept that it is a heck of a round.

Energy at the distance isn't the issue, it is consistency of delivery!

The difference at Bisley is, I know Exactly the distance and can have a few sighters if I want, and if the wind just breaths a bit hard the shot can be off the black altogether.

Bisley is a bit of fun, I've shot a HMR at 600yards there, but 200 yards doesn't work for me with a .22lr for field work.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Dekers

[Whitetail]

It will take some airrifle regardless of cal, velocity etc to live with a high quality 22 rim fire shooting ammo it likes at extended ranges, you can't base how a 22 shoots on the majority you've seen shooting , just as you can't with Airrifles. I had a fin fire range that would shoot 3/4 groups at a hundred yds all day long , it will be interesting to see if you two would have a shoot off.

[Ultrastu]

I dont really think that a well sorted .25 air could match a well sorted .22lr  for long range  distance group size .the drop and bc of a pellet starts to work against it past 80  yds .

I dont think anybody thinks otherwise ? 

Its the effectiveness up to that range thats more interesting (to me at least ) and the added  fallout risk beyond. 

[Whitetail]

41 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I dont really think that a well sorted .25 air could match a well sorted .22lr  for long range  distance group size .the drop and bc of a pellet starts to work against it past 80  yds .

I dont think anybody thinks otherwise ? 

Its the effectiveness up to that range thats more interesting (to me at least ) and the added  fallout risk beyond. 

Would agree with that , you can make elevated shots with out the risk of shooting someone in the next village 

[bruno22rf]

No "heated" discussions twixt myself and Ultrastu I hope strimmer-13 - all I'm aiming at is an intelligent and broad minded exchange of views and experiences, something I have come to expect from Stu.

Edited September 12, 2018 by bruno22rf

[Ultrastu]

Thanks bruno .likewise .😃

Its often very easy to hold on to long held beliefs and then some thing or one comes along and it gets challenged and opionions altered. Its evolution and exactly what what forums are all about .

[Whitetail]

7 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Thanks bruno .likewise .😃

Its often very easy to hold on to long held beliefs and then some thing or one comes along and it gets challenged and opionions altered. Its evolution and exactly what what forums are all about .

Good to see things are being kept civil,.Bruno 22 if you get the chance to try a fac 25 they're very impressive , accurate and hard hitting. I had mk 2 rapid running at 45foot pounds and the only thing I didn't like was the impact noise , it would completely empty a small wood or spinney of pigeons where as a .22 or .20 running at 27-30 foot pounds I would get multiple chances . Just to much gun for me and what I needed