HW95J Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 Having asked advice and slowly got all the required components and kit together, I'm almost ready to start getting some .410 cartridges made. Just needing the powder now which I'll be collecting in a couple of days. As pictured below I'm using a basic set-up with a manual RTO tool from ebay (imported from Russia). Recipe is for 19 grams of no.6 shot in a 3" case. Even without powder I thought I'd give it a go just to get some practice in. I added 22 grams of shot instead of 19 to try and make it closer in terms of space filled. With just 19 grams there was too much excess at the end and the case twisted under pressure. On the left is my first attempt with 22 grams; It's a bit gnarly but I can blame some of that on the case being previously crimped. In the middle is the next effort with a brand new case and I think it's getting there? Last on the right is a factory Express cartridge. On the middle effort there's still a bit of space between the shot and the bottom of the turned over edge. I'm using thick paper from packaging as an over-shot disc. I think with cardboard this might be a bit more level? Can anyone offer some constructive criticism/improved techniques? I've been finding it quite hard to judge when the RTO tool has done its job- is there a rule of thumb for this? Also, would the below cartridges, a bit rough though they are, be fine to use (if they contained powder!). Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog1408 Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 I use my RTO in my pillar drill, let it run on the top of the case for a couple of seconds to warm the edge before applying pressure, I also just hold the case steady with my hand so when it starts to spin in my fingers I know the edge has been rolled enough and is now touching the card. mike You should also use overshot cards as they have better rigidity than cardboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 I agree with Seadog you need to use a good stiff overshot card and might wax them just rubbing with an old candle as well. That will also take up some of the space. I use hand tools in other bores and if you get the overshot card right and give it a few turns before gently applying pressure you will get used to the feel of the right roll turnover. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243deer Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 I have a bunch of 3in once fired cases waiting for a good home, if you want them drop me a pm. Free as farm pays for my cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted October 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 Thanks for the replies, I'll get some overshot cards and report back on results. I was trying to hold off as the postage looks pretty steep on Claygame considering I don't actually need to order anything else! Thanks for the offer 243, might take you up on that at some point but not got the tools to re-size or prime at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted October 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 Any thoughts on using either an over-powder card (2mm) or splitting one in half to use as an over-shot disc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog1408 Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 Try John at Folkestone engineering, he is probably cheaper than clay game . I would stick with the set thickness of card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) Try John at Folkestone Engineering, he has cards and fibre wads. 500 overshot cards should come just on 1st Class post they weigh almost nothing. I have just had over powder and felt wads and he didn't sting me for postage and a nice guy to boot. Oops didn't see Seadogs contribution, just backs up my experience with FE. In fact I will have a look as I think I may have a few overshot cards you can have. I'll be back and if so, pm me an address. Yep, probably about 200plus and I will never use them. Edited October 14, 2018 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted October 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 26 minutes ago, Walker570 said: Try John at Folkestone Engineering, he has cards and fibre wads. 500 overshot cards should come just on 1st Class post they weigh almost nothing. I have just had over powder and felt wads and he didn't sting me for postage and a nice guy to boot. Oops didn't see Seadogs contribution, just backs up my experience with FE. In fact I will have a look as I think I may have a few overshot cards you can have. I'll be back and if so, pm me an address. Yep, probably about 200plus and I will never use them. Very kind offer, I'll send PM Ordered the other components from John, great guy to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 The overshot card needs to be around 1mm thick or not much thicker so as to not hamper the shot group , The roll tool really needs to be powered a hand tool works for larger diameter cases and paper but you really need the speed to form a decent crimp on a 410 tube with a little dab of lube on the case mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 10 hours ago, Andy H said: The overshot card needs to be around 1mm thick or not much thicker so as to not hamper the shot group , The roll tool really needs to be powered a hand tool works for larger diameter cases and paper but you really need the speed to form a decent crimp on a 410 tube with a little dab of lube on the case mouth. Any suggestions for the lube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 I use ballistol on an old case and run this in rto spinner and then put shell to seal in to complete rto about every 10 to 12 shells, i find about right with my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 17 hours ago, HW95J said: Any thoughts on using either an over-powder card (2mm) or splitting one in half to use as an over-shot disc? Stick with 2mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Stonepark said: I use ballistol on an old case and run this in rto spinner and then put shell to seal in to complete rto about every 10 to 12 shells, i find about right with my setup. I have plenty of Ballistol, will give that a try. Good tip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 Sorry for the delay on a reply i have been working in Norway , The lube can be anything Ballistol ,Ptfe ,wd,40,pledge it will all work all it does is help the roll crimp tool thats turning to form the plastic before overheating the plastic and not gripping and twisting the plastic case mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted October 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 How's this then! Walker very kindly sent me some overshot cards and I took on board the advice to use a touch of ballistol to lubricate the end of the case and give it a few spins before applying pressure to generate some heat- (if this has any real effect with a hand tool). First attempt with all this in mind is pictured below. Looking alright if I say so myself. 12grains Lil Gun, 18.5 grams #6 shot. Proving to be a busy weekend so only got the one made. Looking forward to getting a batch done once I can find the time. Hopefully I'll have a chance to test them out in a week or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 Tidy, glad I could help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 Don't load too many until you can see the recipe works. When I first loaded 410 I was getting a lot of unburnt powder in the barrels but a grain more powder made all the difference by raising the pressure to where it needed to be. Was a different recipe but best to check yours before you get too carried away in case some aspect needs adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) These are handy for batch making, I use 2 and shuffle each stage between the two to make sure of no mix ups between stages...... https://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/reloading/reloading-tray-LT150.php Edited October 21, 2018 by Stonepark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 On 14/10/2018 at 16:44, HW95J said: I added 22 grams of shot instead of 19 to try and make it closer in terms of space filled. It looks like you've started using a different recipe so hopefully this isn't going to be a problem, but I don't think anyone else has said: don't do this. .410 is already a high pressure cartridge (compared to a 12 gauge, for example) and loading several grams of shot just to fill the case is going to bump up the pressure even further. No, I don't think the average gun is going to blow up with 3g of extra shot, but the recipes are recipes for a reason. If you need to fill space, use cork, paper or wool fillers, or choose a longer wad. Basically anything that has negligible mass and therefore isn't going to provide greater inertia at the point the pressure is highest. Good roll crimps on the second lot though - well done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 21, 2018 Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 3 hours ago, neutron619 said: It looks like you've started using a different recipe so hopefully this isn't going to be a problem, but I don't think anyone else has said: don't do this. .410 is already a high pressure cartridge (compared to a 12 gauge, for example) and loading several grams of shot just to fill the case is going to bump up the pressure even further. No, I don't think the average gun is going to blow up with 3g of extra shot, but the recipes are recipes for a reason. If you need to fill space, use cork, paper or wool fillers, or choose a longer wad. Basically anything that has negligible mass and therefore isn't going to provide greater inertia at the point the pressure is highest. Good roll crimps on the second lot though - well done! +1 Adding 3extra grams of shot to a 19g recipe is a really bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted October 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, sitsinhedges said: +1 Adding 3extra grams of shot to a 19g recipe is a really bad idea. I've not been adding extra shot to live rounds, this was before I had the powder and purely to practice with the RTO tool. No powder in those cartridges and too thin wads- hence the empty space. The ones I've actually loaded are to a recipe. 4 hours ago, Stonepark said: These are handy for batch making, I use 2 and shuffle each stage between the two to make sure of no mix ups between stages...... https://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/reloading/reloading-tray-LT150.php Will get a couple of these 👍 Also i'll make sure not to load in bulk before I know that things are working well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog1408 Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 Just make your own trays, bit of wood and a (14mm I think) wood bit .......hey presto a low cost strong cartridge holder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted November 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2018 At last had the time to get a small batch made up. Beginning to get the hang of the RTO and knowing when cartridges are sufficiently turned over. Hoping to get out next weekend and give them a try. Very satisfying indeed. Beneficial in that it requires so much concentration and accuracy etc that I can forget about work and get lost in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted November 3, 2018 Report Share Posted November 3, 2018 2 hours ago, HW95J said: At last had the time to get a small batch made up. Beginning to get the hang of the RTO and knowing when cartridges are sufficiently turned over. Hoping to get out next weekend and give them a try. Very satisfying indeed. Beneficial in that it requires so much concentration and accuracy etc that I can forget about work and get lost in it. You're best off with a drill press and a stop on the quill for consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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