Tommy Robinson at the Oxford Union

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

 

I do wonder what world we live in. I remember Dawkins writing about his time in the 70’s and 80’s  - they’d just set on the path to unlocking DNA and particle theory and the intellectuals of the time really thought that science would logically bring about the end of religion. And yet here we are importing ‘the stone age’ and doing all we can to foster, protect and support it.

 

And that sums up for me perfectly the situation we now find ourselves in. I simply find it incredible.

[Retsdon]

The problem is that the genie is out of the bottle and there's no getting it back. But it's ironic that over the last 40 years while the Africans and Indians have, after a long struggle, largely rid themselves of alien colonists, Europe has merrily imported millions of its own. And I'm quite certain that in the future it will go into the history books as one of the greatest reckless blunders in the history of mankind. 

 

[henry d]

Ok, several things here;

Yod was the only one to reply to the every/all argument and it was not a throwaway comment, it could have been either ill thought out or used as an emotive comment, either way it was wrong and has not been addressed by the writer.

Pinfireman and his friend; the comment was that the goody two shoes did nothing, well neither did they so there is no reason to berate others if you did not also speak up no matter what the fall out is for you, it would have been the same for them. Pinefireman also says this was from 95/6, so there was 6-7 years of abuse going on that could have been stopped if anyone were committed enough. “...they wanted to keep their jobs!” was the quote, so be it, if you want to keep your job in such a profession then unfortunately it is unprofessional to keep quiet end of. It appears that the social work code of ethics is similar to the one I have in youth work;

Upholding and promoting human dignity and well-being Social workers should respect, uphold and defend each person’s physical, psychological, emotional and spiritual integrity and well-being. They should work towards promoting the best interests of individuals and groups in society and the avoidance of harm. (social work code of ethics 2:1)

 I`m sorry but your friend`s colleagues (at the conference) were complicit due to their inaction, they were unprofessional and should have been taken to task along with anyone else who sat on their hands and sacked. They should have known this so were in a dark place, say something and we may get sacked, don`t say something and if it all goes pear-shaped we may get sacked. I find it hard to believe that they were not aware of both these outcomes and were willing to bet on nothing being found out.

Finally - Constructive dismissal; what do you mean by this? Did he resign because of bullying at work due to his concerns? If so he had a case for wrongful/constructive dismissal.

[Rewulf]

41 minutes ago, henry d said:

Yod was the only one to reply to the every/all argument and it was not a throwaway comment, it could have been either ill thought out or used as an emotive comment, either way it was wrong and has not been addressed by the writer.

On 01/12/2018 at 18:09, pinfireman said:

So far, it,s happened in more than a dozen places, and there are enquiries going on in at least another dozen!  At the moment, our three largest cities have been remarkably quiet about this, but if you think it has not happened in them,  you are dreaming! Whilst all, and every, town or city may be an exaggeration, I am willing to bet that  at least another 12 cases  come to court in the next 3 years...what odds will you give me?

Henry , either you dont read things properly, or you wilfully ignore that which does not fit into your agenda/opinion.

 

43 minutes ago, henry d said:

Pinfireman and his friend; the comment was that the goody two shoes did nothing, well neither did they so there is no reason to berate others if you did not also speak up no matter what the fall out is for you,

There are so many instances in this thread, where Pinfire , his friend and friends wife tried their hardest to bring this to public and official knowledge .
Did you not see these passages in the thread, MULTIPLE times ?
Do I really have to go back and list them for you, or are just going to ignore them again ?

 

46 minutes ago, henry d said:

I`m sorry but your friend`s colleagues (at the conference) were complicit due to their inaction, they were unprofessional and should have been taken to task along with anyone else who sat on their hands and sacked.

So they should have been sacked for not acting ?
The only people who got sacked were those that SPOKE UP !
The ones that sat on their hands are probably still working in these councils, ignoring more diversity sensitive issues.
But we cant talk about them in case we get called racists can we ?

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

They should have known this so were in a dark place, say something and we may get sacked, don`t say something and if it all goes pear-shaped we may get sacked.

The option to make a stand on principle is not so cut and dried.  We mostly all think we would do what's right, but it becomes a different matter when you throw into the mix a family to feed and educate, a mortgage to pay, and a scarcity of alternative employment possibilities. Then it become a question of priorities.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

The option to make a stand on principle is not so cut and dried.  We mostly all think we would do what's right, but it becomes a different matter when you throw into the mix a family to feed and educate, a mortgage to pay, and a scarcity of alternative employment possibilities. Then it become a question of priorities.

Of  course it is .
Yet some, rather than face up to the fact, that members of one of their precious ethnic minorities are committing sexual crimes, somehow want to blame someone else for the abuse !
You usually find its the same types who justify youth knife crime and robbery , by bleating about 'not enough being done for them'

We have choices in life, and we are all responsible for ourselves at base level.
The more nannying and excuses made , simply makes the problem worse.

[Retsdon]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Of  course it is .
Yet some, rather than face up to the fact, that members of one of their precious ethnic minorities are committing sexual crimes, somehow want to blame someone else for the abuse !
You usually find its the same types who justify youth knife crime and robbery , by bleating about 'not enough being done for them'

We have choices in life, and we are all responsible for ourselves at base level.
The more nannying and excuses made , simply makes the problem worse.

I' wasn't talking about those at the top who, for purely political reasons, made it impossible for decent people to do their job properly, or the media who share their political agenda. I was talking about normal people like Pinfireman's friend who would basically have had to sacrifice their job in a (probably) futile gesture of defiance. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

I' wasn't talking about those at the top who, for purely political reasons, made it impossible for decent people to do their job properly, or the media who share their political agenda. I was talking about normal people like Pinfireman's friend who would basically have had to sacrifice their job in a (probably) futile gesture of defiance. 

He did sacrifice his job eventually.

And futility ? Thats when there is no chance of a positive action.
Someone didnt think it was futile, and took the big step, and thats why we are having this discussion.

I often wonder what else is out there , waiting to be uncovered.

[pinfireman]

On 01/12/2018 at 18:50, grrclark said:

Pinfireman, I am not blaming anyone other than those in authority who allowed this behaviour to take place, I have said that rather explicitly in my posts.

I’m not revisiting what I said previously to try and highlight that to you as quite frankly I can’t be bothered, i’m fed up with having these sorts of discussions on PW and i’m a fool for letting myself get engaged in this one.

I see and recognise the problem for exactly what it was and is, which is a systemic failure of the eatablishment due to having a dangerously skewed agenda, but i’m going to leave it there.

That,s fine....my fight has always been with those who knowingly allowed it to happen, and deliberately closed their eyes, and minds, to it.  It,s not with those who were ignorant as to what was happening at the time. The political culture at the time was to smother any complaints, and to label those who made them as racist!  "Diversity" was their  political watchword, and nothing was going to get in the way of it.....not even when one of their own MPs, Anne Cryer, started complaining. It was, and still is, a national tragedy.

On 01/12/2018 at 20:41, Retsdon said:

The problem is that the genie is out of the bottle and there's no getting it back. But it's ironic that over the last 40 years while the Africans and Indians have, after a long struggle, largely rid themselves of alien colonists, Europe has merrily imported millions of its own. And I'm quite certain that in the future it will go into the history books as one of the greatest reckless blunders in the history of mankind. 

 

True!

[pinfireman]

11 hours ago, henry d said:

Ok, several things here;

 

Yod was the only one to reply to the every/all argument and it was not a throwaway comment, it could have been either ill thought out or used as an emotive comment, either way it was wrong and has not been addressed by the writer.

 

Pinfireman and his friend; the comment was that the goody two shoes did nothing, well neither did they so there is no reason to berate others if you did not also speak up no matter what the fall out is for you, it would have been the same for them. Pinefireman also says this was from 95/6, so there was 6-7 years of abuse going on that could have been stopped if anyone were committed enough. “...they wanted to keep their jobs!” was the quote, so be it, if you want to keep your job in such a profession then unfortunately it is unprofessional to keep quiet end of. It appears that the social work code of ethics is similar to the one I have in youth work;

 

Upholding and promoting human dignity and well-being Social workers should respect, uphold and defend each person’s physical, psychological, emotional and spiritual integrity and well-being. They should work towards promoting the best interests of individuals and groups in society and the avoidance of harm. (social work code of ethics 2:1)

 

 I`m sorry but your friend`s colleagues (at the conference) were complicit due to their inaction, they were unprofessional and should have been taken to task along with anyone else who sat on their hands and sacked. They should have known this so were in a dark place, say something and we may get sacked, don`t say something and if it all goes pear-shaped we may get sacked. I find it hard to believe that they were not aware of both these outcomes and were willing to bet on nothing being found out.

 

Finally - Constructive dismissal; what do you mean by this? Did he resign because of bullying at work due to his concerns? If so he had a case for wrongful/constructive dismissal.

 

.they wanted to keep their jobs!” was the quote, so be it, if you want to keep your job in such a profession then unfortunately it is unprofessional to keep quiet end of. It appears that the social work.....Wrong!  My friend was constructively dismissed because he did not keep quiet, and was then threatened  with  his wife being sacked from her position in another dept of the council!  You have no concept as to how thoroughly nasty the people  running the council were. These people were not  following lofty principles, they were determined to keep this under wraps at all costs! As to the reason given for his dismissal, it,s a bit difficult to ask him at the moment, he died 2 years ago, after a long fight with one of the most unpleasant diseases around.

You should read the full report on this episode, before making criticisms.......it might open your eyes, and change your views.  Might..............

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Henry , either you dont read things properly, or you wilfully ignore that which does not fit into your agenda/opinion.

 

There are so many instances in this thread, where Pinfire , his friend and friends wife tried their hardest to bring this to public and official knowledge .
Did you not see these passages in the thread, MULTIPLE times ?
Do I really have to go back and list them for you, or are just going to ignore them again ?

 

So they should have been sacked for not acting ?
The only people who got sacked were those that SPOKE UP !
The ones that sat on their hands are probably still working in these councils, ignoring more diversity sensitive issues.
But we cant talk about them in case we get called racists can we ?

You,ve said it better than I could.....thanks.

9 hours ago, Retsdon said:

The option to make a stand on principle is not so cut and dried.  We mostly all think we would do what's right, but it becomes a different matter when you throw into the mix a family to feed and educate, a mortgage to pay, and a scarcity of alternative employment possibilities. Then it become a question of priorities.

Especially when after taking a stand, no one, not police press or politicians,  take any actions, and indeed, tend to blame the victims!

[grrclark]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Of  course it is .
Yet some, rather than face up to the fact, that members of one of their precious ethnic minorities are committing sexual crimes, somehow want to blame someone else for the abuse !
You usually find its the same types who justify youth knife crime and robbery , by bleating about 'not enough being done for them'

We have choices in life, and we are all responsible for ourselves at base level.
The more nannying and excuses made , simply makes the problem worse.

Hiw did you get to that conclusion?

At no point in this thread by has anybody denied what went on and who was the perpetrator of the crimes.

The vast majority of the perpetrators of the abuse were men of Pakistani origin  and they committed the abuse for a multitude of reasons, perhaps significant amongst them was a feeling of invulnerability.  There are obviously a host of other socio-cultural contributors or motivations too.

Those in authority who unequivocably knew about the abuse taking place and did nothing to stop it are complicit in allowing it to happen, in my opinion, and should be prosecuted as such.

I don’t think anything that has been said in this thread, by any commentator, is contrary to that.

The disagreements are largely around semantics of language and some questioning of the principle behind statements made.

That right there in your post is the problem with so many debates on PW of this nature, where people are inventing strawmen to justify their own argument.

You have attributed your own assumptions towards someone elses motivation for posting and it bears no reflection at all to what has been posted and that quite frankly is disingenuous and wrong.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

Hiw did you get to that conclusion?

At no point in this thread by has anybody denied what went on and who was the perpetrator of the crimes.

The vast majority of the perpetrators of the abuse were men of Pakistani origin  and they committed the abuse for a multitude of reasons, perhaps significant amongst them was a feeling of invulnerability.  There are obviously a host of other socio-cultural contributors or motivations too.

Those in authority who unequivocably knew about the abuse taking place and did nothing to stop it are complicit in allowing it to happen, in my opinion, and should be prosecuted as such.

I don’t think anything that has been said in this thread, by any commentator, is contrary to that.

The disagreements are largely around semantics of language and some questioning of the principle behind statements made.

That right there in your post is the problem with so many debates on PW of this nature, where people are inventing strawmen to justify their own argument.

You have attributed your own assumptions towards someone elses motivation for posting and it bears no reflection at all to what has been posted and that quite frankly is disingenuous and wrong.

Not the case at all.

Pinfireman and his deceased friend got attacked, by people on here 'for not doing anything' when it was stated very clearly that they did.

Attacked by people who it would seem to me, ignored what had been written and carried on regardless, they might as well have called him a liar.

You stated it above, the attacks were carried out by mostly Pakistani men for whatever reasons, but one of them being, they felt invulnerable, now why would that be ?

It's because there was, and is, a sense of terror in official institutions of putting blame on a minority, which makes bringing blame to bear difficult. There are plenty of fingers pointing , but rather than point at the root cause of the problem , we point them at each other. Because it doesn't matter if WE get offended, it doesn't matter if it's white kids getting abused and raped. As long as we don't offend any minority, it's all good.

As has been amply demonstrated here.

Rather than take common ground with pinfireman, people tried to dismantle his story, call into question his 'every town ' accusation, before eventually making his whole point invalid , because he didn't do enough !

And you talk about straw man arguments?

I don't always agree with pinfireman, but in this instance, he did nothing wrong. And when I pointed out the inaccuracies of the hate levelled at him, I'm wrong too apparently ?

I think some people need to reread the entire thread.

[grrclark]

51 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Not the case at all.

Pinfireman and his deceased friend got attacked, by people on here 'for not doing anything' when it was stated very clearly that they did.

Attacked by people who it would seem to me, ignored what had been written and carried on regardless, they might as well have called him a liar.

You stated it above, the attacks were carried out by mostly Pakistani men for whatever reasons, but one of them being, they felt invulnerable, now why would that be ?

It's because there was, and is, a sense of terror in official institutions of putting blame on a minority, which makes bringing blame to bear difficult. There are plenty of fingers pointing , but rather than point at the root cause of the problem , we point them at each other. Because it doesn't matter if WE get offended, it doesn't matter if it's white kids getting abused and raped. As long as we don't offend any minority, it's all good.

As has been amply demonstrated here.

Rather than take common ground with pinfireman, people tried to dismantle his story, call into question his 'every town ' accusation, before eventually making his whole point invalid , because he didn't do enough !

And you talk about straw man arguments?

I don't always agree with pinfireman, but in this instance, he did nothing wrong. And when I pointed out the inaccuracies of the hate levelled at him, I'm wrong too apparently ?

I think some people need to reread the entire thread.

Dear me you really do engage in some emotive twaddle.

Point out to me the bits in bold where there is any inference that is being suggested in any post, or rather by any commentator, on this thread.

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by grrclark

[Vince Green]

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:17, pinfireman said:

My friend was "constructively" dismissed,  and  I DID shout it out, only to be called a racist, and threatened with legal action!  You have no idea of the culture that existed there, and how it pervaded the council, and South Yorkshire Police!  Those who spoke out were targetted. Even a demo in the town centre by the BNP (who I dislike!) almost failed to get noticed!  It took a national newspaper to finally blow the whistle.  Even today, and on here, there are people who fail to understand what was happening, it,s magnitude  of fear, and how the authorities stamped down on  the victims, and those who tried to expose the crimes!

Its still happening, nothing has changed except the age bar has been raised to over 16. So now its OK, its legal, carry on fill your boots. The girls are just as vunerable, the exploitation just as cynical but Hey! copper she's 16 so on your bike.

[Rewulf]

52 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Dear me you really do engage in some emotive twaddle.

Point out to me the bits in bold where there is any inference that is being suggested in any post, or rather by any commentator, on this thread.

 

 

 

It's emotive 'twaddle' because it's an emotive subject . People tend to get that way when children are sexually assaulted.  That much would be clear to an imbecile.

But you miss the point.

Why ,again , are we arguing about whether or not it's emotive , or whether those in charge ignored it, or whether their underlings didn't shout loud enough ?

Those girls got abused and raped , when they complained they were ignored, It happened, it's happening, and it's going to keep happening, because our ridiculous PC culture still exists.

Rather than tackle the underlying issue of why these men do what they do, we argue about whether we should say anything about it.

That's what I'm talking about, is that so hard to understand ?

[grrclark]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It's emotive 'twaddle' because it's an emotive subject . People tend to get that way when children are sexually assaulted.  That much would be clear to an imbecile.

But you miss the point.

Why ,again , are we arguing about whether or not it's emotive , or whether those in charge ignored it, or whether their underlings didn't shout loud enough ?

Those girls got abused and raped , when they complained they were ignored, It happened, it's happening, and it's going to keep happening, because our ridiculous PC culture still exists.

Rather than tackle the underlying issue of why these men do what they do, we argue about whether we should say anything about it.

That's what I'm talking about, is that so hard to understand ?

The emotive twaddle was related to your comments such as “the hate shown to pinfireman”

And “...how it has been amply demonstrated here...” in the context that it’s ok for white children to be raped.

None of that is remotely true, so emotive twaddle.

What is clear is that you’re just looking for an echo chamber, lots of voices agreeing with you.  

For the avoidance of doubt.  Yes it’s an abomination it should have happened and was permitted to happen, especially so as there was an institutional failing across multiple organisations in their being complicit to the abuse happening.  The organisational failings being mulitple, not least amongst which was a failure to tackle the problem through fear of being branded racist.

Alongside the perpetrators of the abuse those that were in authority and knew about this happening, I believe, should also be prosecuted.

Back to your point how do you stop what happened from happeneing again, or stop it if it is still happening elsewhere?

The only way is for those who know it is happening to speak out, to use every avenue open to them to highlight the problem.  If they have evidence then go to the press, write to every councilor, MP, and MEP.  Write to the local authority executives, the head of police and social work.  To be resolute in the face of resistance.  The very thing that many people, apparently, didn’t do.

We cannot change an endemic culture unless we do speak out, which is why it is being discussed here.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by grrclark

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, grrclark said:

The emotive twaddle was related to your comments such as “the hate shown to pinfireman”

And “...how it has been amply demonstrated here...” in the context that it’s ok for white children to be raped.

None of that is remotely true, so emotive twaddle.

I was being sarcastic, so sarcastic twaddle ?

 

2 hours ago, grrclark said:

What is clear is that you’re just looking for an echo chamber, lots of voices agreeing with you.  

Your opinion, but I will admit to one thing, I dont post , unless I believe myself to be right in what Im saying.
If people agree with me thats fine.
But I would much rather people disagree with me, show me their angle, who knows I might learn something ?
What is clear to me , is there is no point in having a debate if everyone agrees with each other, THEN its an echo chamber, and pointless.

 

2 hours ago, grrclark said:

For the avoidance of doubt.  Yes it’s an abomination it should have happened and was permitted to happen, especially so as there was an institutional failing across multiple organisations in their being complicit to the abuse happening.  The organisational failings being mulitple, not least amongst which was a failure to tackle the problem through fear of being branded racist.

Alongside the perpetrators of the abuse those that were in authority and knew about this happening, I believe, should also be prosecuted.

 

I dont know what the issue is here, I never doubted that was your position ?
I also completely agree with it.

The issue I had was you appeared to back up Henry when he attacked Pinfire, who completely ignored what he posted and making it sound like Pinfire and his friend were complicit in the abuse, whilst not once addressing the real culprits.

Lets not forget that this thread is about Tommy Robinson, which is a subject that brings the PC element of PW out flexing.
Which is why Henry said his piece , then disappeared.

 

3 hours ago, grrclark said:

The only way is for those who know it is happening to speak out, to use every avenue open to them to highlight the problem.  If they have evidence then go to the press, write to every councilor, MP, and MEP.  Write to the local authority executives, the head of police and social work.  To be resolute in the face of resistance.  The very thing that many people, apparently, didn’t do.

How far do you go ?
Those strongly worded letters, those stern emails, depends where they land.
Those media outlets, depends on who owns them, or what their agenda is.
Those MPs , depends how 'career minded' they are , youve seen what happened to Sarah Champion I presume ?
Whilst Naz 'shut up for the sake of diversity' Shah , gets nothing.
A strong message ?

I agree , you dont give up, but how far are people willing to go ?

Finally, my point again, is about division, why are we even arguing about who was to blame, anyone in their right mind knows who was to blame surely ?

[Dave-G]

Won't be long before the age of sexual consent is vastly reduced to de-criminalise child grooming or full on sex in one fell swoop to benefit our culturally different bretheren. 

As usual the justifiably affronted indiginous population will get rubbished if they protest it in any way.

Now mildly wondering if thats why a few culprits have been sacrificed to pave the way for the many. 

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Won't be long before the age of sexual consent is vastly reduced to de-criminalise child grooming or full on sex in one fell swoop to benefit our culturally different bretheren. 

As usual the justifiably affronted indiginous population will get rubbished if they protest it in any way.

Now mildly wondering if thats why a few culprits have been sacrificed to pave the way for the many. 

I can’t seriously see that happening....can you? Seriously? Think it through. 

[Dave-G]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

I can’t seriously see that happening....can you? Seriously? Think it through. 

T'was mildly tongue in cheek but it would spontaneously free up up the police and courts to find the time and funds for other issues. Notwithstanding that a few of our own peado's will fall though the net too. I think I chose my wording and stance quite well there for a change so I'll quit before I go wong.

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

T'was mildly tongue in cheek but it would spontaneously free up up the police and courts to find the time and funds for other issues. Notwithstanding that a few of our own peado's will fall though the net too. I think I chose my wording and stance quite well there for a change so I'll quit before I go wong.

Like I said, you need to think it through. 

[pinfireman]

15 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Its still happening, nothing has changed except the age bar has been raised to over 16. So now its OK, its legal, carry on fill your boots. The girls are just as vunerable, the exploitation just as cynical but Hey! copper she's 16 so on your bike.

True, Vince.  There,s an awful lot more to come out, but these days, it,s once again being ignored by the media, or only getting a slight mention on page 16 !What a mess we have allowed our successive governments to get us in....................

[grrclark]

9 hours ago, Scully said:

Like I said, you need to think it through. 

A thankful, but rare, source of reason.

Not blowing smoke up your ****, but you’re a rare soul who has strongly held opinions, but thoroughly reasoned in why you hold them.  

[Scully]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

A thankful, but rare, source of reason.

Not blowing smoke up your ****, but you’re a rare soul who has strongly held opinions, but thoroughly reasoned in why you hold them.  

Why thankyou kind sir! The feeling is mutual. 👍

[sportsbob]

Tommy will be speaking again this Sunday.