Fiber shotcups 3"& 31/2"

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Very interesting.

[islandgun]

4 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Very interesting.

Yes.......... thanks Carsten Holm Clausen for your in-depth info

[edenman]

Will these fibre shot wads shoot as tightly as plastic?

[figgy]

Thanks for the info and load recipes Carsten. Very helpful and will save us all some wasted time and components. What gun and barrel bore diameter did you shoot them through? Backbored let's some gasses past the fiber seals.

[Smokersmith]

Thanks again for the research!!

The answer could be an inverted card cup seal which should be more efficient than just a nitro seal .... could need both ... one to form the seal, and the card to protect the base of the wad.

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

40 minutes ago, edenman said:

Will these fibre shot wads shoot as tightly as plastic?

I have not testet pattern yet, to cold and wet outside for that 😊
Kent Biowad and GameBore Regal, have bin used for hunting in Denmark for som years, and they are doing all right for small game. 28 gram, shotsize 5 steel.

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

32 minutes ago, figgy said:

Thanks for the info and load recipes Carsten. Very helpful and will save us all some wasted time and components. What gun and barrel bore diameter did you shoot them through? Backbored let's some gasses past the fiber seals.

Sorry... forgot to write the testgun, Remington 870, barrel is not backbore, I bellive the barrel diameter is 0.730"

The original charge is about 15 years old.
I use Tube 43 indsted of VP65. and only 35 grains Aliant steel now with a newer lot number. the speed is testet to 485 m/s V2. testgun Remington 870

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

42 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Thanks again for the research!!

The answer could be an inverted card cup seal which should be more efficient than just a nitro seal .... could need both ... one to form the seal, and the card to protect the base of the wad.

Hi,
Thanks...
Do you have a link to that inverted card cup, would like to read and se more.

[Smokersmith]

These are typically home made .... the picture or the brown wad on the previous page shows something similar ... with the base element of the wad having the ability to expand and create a gas seal like a plastic one would.

[Diss4111]

15 hours ago, edenman said:

Will these fibre shot wads shoot as tightly as plastic?

They give very even patterns, the picture below is 32grains of SSB+150 and 32 grams of steel 4's

[Diss4111]

This is the same load but 32 grams of steel 1's

And this is 22 grains CSB5 with 24 grams of Steel 7's

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

Diss4111

do you have som more information.
Speed ?
Distance ?
Choke ?
Gun ?
Try make a cirkel where you have the most pattern inside a 75 cm cirkel.
Count the patten in the cirkel and i in the shell.. Then you kan get pattern in procent.

Like this.
12/76, 36 gram steel, #1, 470 m/s V2, distance 35 meter. (Tube 43 wad) Not Biodegradable wad 
Beretta A391 optima

Edited December 13, 2018 by Carsten Holm Clausen

[Diss4111]

Hi Carsten,

I don't have any speed figures yet as I don't have a chrono. The gun is a Beratta Extrema with a 28" barrel and a Kicks Hy Flyer Mod choke. The pattern boards are a metre square and were 35 yards away.

The loads were;

Fiocchi 615 primer,

32 grains SSB+150 powder,

4mm over powder card,

38mm fibre shot cup

32 grams of shot,

70mm case with RTO.

The board I used was 9mm MDf and the shot ripped through it at 35 yards so they have plenty of poke

The 24 gram load is

70mm case,

Fiocchi 615 primer,

22 grains CSB5

4mm over powder card,

34mm shot cup with 3mm 20 bore card inside

24 grams of shot

6 point crimp closure

 

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

Hi Diss4111

Thanks for the information, and load data.
Think it needs a little more work, The bedst pattern is your 24 grams, # 4 can work, but # 1 need som work. 

Did you slidt your shot cup ?

I´m looking forward to the spring, so i can get out testing som more. 

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

Well I´m a bit inspired by Tom Roster and his work.

Tom was in charge of the CONCEP (Cooperative North Amarican Shotgunning Education Program).
Tom has developed a method of specimen shooting based on wildlife exploration on practical hunting, with non-toxic shot. (Steel, tungsten and bismuth)

For several years, Tom has built up a large knowledge, about non-toxic shots killing ability.
There are no fewer than 16.000 ducks and geese, 225 turkeys and 600 pheasants, where the shooting distance is measured by distance meter. Then the game is autopsized and x-ray photographed to find the cause of death.

In addition, Tom has tested 75,000 lead, steel, tungsten and bismuth cartridges to find out which cartridges are best and most effective for a given hunting form.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Carsten Holm Clausen

[Diss4111]

56 minutes ago, Carsten Holm Clausen said:

Hi Diss4111

Thanks for the information, and load data.
Think it needs a little more work, The bedst pattern is your 24 grams, # 4 can work, but # 1 need som work. 

Did you slidt your shot cup ?

I´m looking forward to the spring, so i can get out testing som more. 

The cups were split 4 ways 3/4 of the length. The 4's and 1's are very effective. The paper on the 4's is 24" wide so there is far more than the 50% of shot in a 30" circle. As is the 1's. The 1's have been devastating on geese this season. Outperforming the Gamebore Mammoth 3.5" BB's that I would normally use. I would expect the 7 to be a better pattern, there's a lot more shot in them and in my opinion lighter loads pattern better than heavy ones.

I am going to slit the shot cups full length on my next ones but the next tests will be for speed when my chrono arrives.

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

Similarly to the Danish conditions

Recommended shooting distances in Denmark by the ethical rules.

To reduce the number of winged it is important that you know the recommended maximum shooting distances for. If you stick to these recommendations, fewer pieces will be deceived:

Row deer: Max. 20 meters
Fox and goose: Max. 25 meters
Other species: Max. 30 meters

Shooting distances only apply in the most favorable situation, such as side or tip shots. In other situations the shooting distance must be reduced.

This card is for the Danish conditions
Allowed in Denmark: Biggest caliber is 12 and biggest shot, # 1 (4 mm) Lead is not allowed.

Recommended shotsize, Loads, shot number in a 75 cm circle for steel shot. Distance 35 meters.

[Diss4111]

I'm amazed by both of those charts, I would not fire a lead 7 or 8 shot at a bird, let alone steel. The minimum I go to for steel is 5's and that is not very often. 4's are the norm and 1's for geese at any range.

I am working on a 28 gram steel 4 load for flight pond shooting. I would normally use 32 gram 4's for this but am trying to stop using plastic altogether

 

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

3 minutes ago, Diss4111 said:

The cups were split 4 ways 3/4 of the length. The 4's and 1's are very effective. The paper on the 4's is 24" wide so there is far more than the 50% of shot in a 30" circle. As is the 1's. The 1's have been devastating on geese this season. Outperforming the Gamebore Mammoth 3.5" BB's that I would normally use. I would expect the 7 to be a better pattern, there's a lot more shot in them and in my opinion lighter loads pattern better than heavy ones.

I am going to slit the shot cups full length on my next ones but the next tests will be for speed when my chrono arrives.

Good to hear 

Keep up your good work. Let us know when you have done some chrono tests

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

2 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

I'm amazed by both of those charts, I would not fire a lead 7 or 8 shot at a bird, let alone steel. The minimum I go to for steel is 5's and that is not very often. 4's are the norm and 1's for geese at any range.

I am working on a 28 gram steel 4 load for flight pond shooting. I would normally use 32 gram 4's for this but am trying to stop using plastic altogether

 

 

I agree .. smallest I use is steel # 5
Mostly number 4 ore 3 to ducks

My favorite is a 12/70, 30 gram steel, # 4, 475 m / s .. But still with plastic wad. For small dabbling ducks, Crows and wood pigion.
I would like it with fiber cups ... and it will probably come with a little more testing.

For Gees I use 12/76,  34 gram steel, # 2, 475 m/s V2 or 36 gram steel #1 470 m/s V2.

For Diving ducks (Sea duck hunting with decoys) 12/76, 34 gram #3 or 2, 475 m/s V2

These loads, we need with biodegradable wads, Also the big ones in 12/89 with 40+ gram steel. 

A very popular shell in Denmark is 12/76, 28 grams, 500 m / s. Produced by Kent, Kent Fasteel super speed. and a similar from GamBore Jaguar hunting steel
But not easy to keep a good pattern. It's too fast.

I have tested many times in different weapons and chokes, with # 4
The result usually looks like this.
Test distance 25 and 35 meters, it is fast a pattern brake up. And It's not good in my eyes.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Carsten Holm Clausen

[motty]

6 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

Hi Carsten,

I don't have any speed figures yet as I don't have a chrono. The gun is a Beratta Extrema with a 28" barrel and a Kicks Hy Flyer Mod choke. The pattern boards are a metre square and were 35 yards away.

The loads were;

Fiocchi 615 primer,

32 grains SSB+150 powder,

4mm over powder card,

38mm fibre shot cup

32 grams of shot,

70mm case with RTO.

The board I used was 9mm MDf and the shot ripped through it at 35 yards so they have plenty of poke

The 24 gram load is

70mm case,

Fiocchi 615 primer,

22 grains CSB5

4mm over powder card,

34mm shot cup with 3mm 20 bore card inside

24 grams of shot

6 point crimp closure

 

Those patterns are ok, but I would expect any cartridge (especially steel) to pattern ok at that range.

[motty]

4 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

The cups were split 4 ways 3/4 of the length. The 4's and 1's are very effective. The paper on the 4's is 24" wide so there is far more than the 50% of shot in a 30" circle. As is the 1's. The 1's have been devastating on geese this season. Outperforming the Gamebore Mammoth 3.5" BB's that I would normally use. I would expect the 7 to be a better pattern, there's a lot more shot in them and in my opinion lighter loads pattern better than heavy ones.

I am going to slit the shot cups full length on my next ones but the next tests will be for speed when my chrono arrives.

In what way have your 32gm 1s outperformed Mammoth 42gm BB.

4 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

I'm amazed by both of those charts, I would not fire a lead 7 or 8 shot at a bird, let alone steel. The minimum I go to for steel is 5's and that is not very often. 4's are the norm and 1's for geese at any range.

I am working on a 28 gram steel 4 load for flight pond shooting. I would normally use 32 gram 4's for this but am trying to stop using plastic altogether

 

Just out of interest, why would you not fire lead 7 at any live quarry?

[motty]

3 hours ago, Carsten Holm Clausen said:

I agree .. smallest I use is steel # 5
Mostly number 4 ore 3 to ducks

My favorite is a 12/70, 30 gram steel, # 4, 475 m / s .. But still with plastic wad. For small dabbling ducks, Crows and wood pigion.
I would like it with fiber cups ... and it will probably come with a little more testing.

For Gees I use 12/76,  34 gram steel, # 2, 475 m/s V2 or 36 gram steel #1 470 m/s V2.

For Diving ducks (Sea duck hunting with decoys) 12/76, 34 gram #3 or 2, 475 m/s V2

These loads, we need with biodegradable wads, Also the big ones in 12/89 with 40+ gram steel. 

A very popular shell in Denmark is 12/76, 28 grams, 500 m / s. Produced by Kent, Kent Fasteel super speed. and a similar from GamBore Jaguar hunting steel
But not easy to keep a good pattern. It's too fast.

I have tested many times in different weapons and chokes, with # 4
The result usually looks like this.
Test distance 25 and 35 meters, it is fast a pattern brake up. And It's not good in my eyes.

Have you tried those fast loads with full chokes?

[Carsten Holm Clausen]

1 hour ago, motty said:

Have you tried those fast loads with full chokes?

That 12/76 28 gram 500 m/s Yes I have, and 3/4.  Did´t work well for me, it is some years a go, and don´t have a picture of it. These to is from two years a go, in a friends Beretta A400 extreme with original choke.

My best results is with max speed 485 m/s V2. Then it starts to spread out... So I ditched this load several years a go.

34 gram og 36 gram loads is reloaded by me...
And yes they are tested  Could not find that 34 gram with #2 but with #3. Choke Beretta extended Full

Edited December 13, 2018 by Carsten Holm Clausen

[figgy]

Interesting views on range.

If I had to limit my shots to 25 meters max for geese most seasons I'd never pull the trigger.

Glad we can have larger shot sizes.