Game days? How much is justifiable?

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, stagboy said:

To my way of thinking, those who shoot gamebirds without taking any responsibility for ensuring that the resulting carcases enter the human food chain would be better to stick to shooting inanimate targets. Same with the exponents of "extreme" pheasant shooting, where sentient creatures are used as little more than feathered targets, in the full knowledge that many will be wounded in the course of bolstering the Gun's bragging rights.

It is true that we don't shoot game for food as the main motive, any more than we eat meat to live. We shoot game - as we eat meat - for entertainment. But the way we treat the animals we kill is very important. The big bag brigade have been largely responsible for the collapse in game meat prices, through an excess of supply over demand. This in turn has harmed the public perception of game shooting. 

I shoot driven game birds on my small syndicate and take with me everything nobody else wants, as I have an outlet. On beaters day I shoot game birds without taking any responsibility for ensuring that any of them ( apart from the brace or two I take ) enter the human food chain. It's not my responsibility. All those shooters who pay for a days shooting throughout the season leave at the end of the day without a thought as to where all those shot birds will end up. Why should they? It's not their responsibility. The responsibility for that lies with the shoot, and regardless of what you think of big bag days, it is these days which makes shooting the industry it is, and if it weren't for that industry I seriously doubt we'd all be shooting today. Big shooting estates will diversify; they'll have to; the one in Leicestershire was doing just that, albeit going about it the wrong way, and while I can agree the way we treat the animals we kill is very important, I think you'll find it is the fact we're killing for no other reason than 'sport' or entertainment, that does us more harm than anything else, and you're party to that. 

Do away with all the big shooting estates, and in particular driven shooting on any scale, and see how long we last as individual shooters. 

[Walker570]

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

I shoot driven game birds on my small syndicate and take with me everything nobody else wants, as I have an outlet. On beaters day I shoot game birds without taking any responsibility for ensuring that any of them ( apart from the brace or two I take ) enter the human food chain. It's not my responsibility. All those shooters who pay for a days shooting throughout the season leave at the end of the day without a thought as to where all those shot birds will end up. Why should they? It's not their responsibility. The responsibility for that lies with the shoot, and regardless of what you think of big bag days, it is these days which makes shooting the industry it is, and if it weren't for that industry I seriously doubt we'd all be shooting today. Big shooting estates will diversify; they'll have to; the one in Leicestershire was doing just that, albeit going about it the wrong way, and while I can agree the way we treat the animals we kill is very important, I think you'll find it is the fact we're killing for no other reason than 'sport' or entertainment, that does us more harm than anything else, and you're party to that. 

Do away with all the big shooting estates, and in particular driven shooting on any scale, and see how long we last as individual shooters. 

Very little there I cannot agree with Scully BUTwhen the 'game' starts to get to where feathred targets are presented purely to make them almost impossible to kill cleanly....remember...16 to 1 and that probably with very heavy shotloads and guns to match .... I personally will criticise, the same I will criticise anyone who brags about shooting at deer at very long extended ranges when they should learn to hunt/stalk, or persists in taking head shots with a good chance of blowing off a lower jaw for others to tidy up later.   Oh, my rifle will put every shot on a 10p pice at 200yrds I hear them say, but does that 10p piece move unexpectedly at all?   There comes a point when it is not on I'm afraid.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Walker570

[CharlieT]

38 minutes ago, stagboy said:

To my way of thinking, those who shoot without taking any responsibility for ensuring that the resulting carcases enter the human food chain would be better to stick to shooting inanimate targets. Same with the exponents of "extreme" pheasant shooting, where sentient creatures are used as little more than feathered targets, the full knowledge that many will be wounded in the course of bolstering the Gun's bragging rights.

It is true that we don't shoot game for food as the main motive, any more than we eat meat to live. We shoot game - as we eat meat - for entertainment. But the way we treat the animals we kill is very important. The big bag brigade largely responsible for the collapse in game meat prices, through an excess of supply over demand. This in turn has harmed the public perception of game shooting. 

Your first paragraph is not worthy of a shooting man.

Surely it's the shoots responsibility to sell/process shot game NOT the guns. To suggest that is a moral responsibility that rests with the guns is naive. The gun is buying a days shooting, he has no input into how the shoot is run, how many beaters it employs, how many pickers up there are or which game dealer the shoot uses. To suggest otherwise is just plain silly.  

I would suggest that depressed game prices are not caused by what you rudely call the big bag brigade, but the growing popularity of game shooting, which in turn has resulted in the huge increase in the number of game shoots. I agree though that it is incumbent on shoots to ensure that all fit game enters the food chain.

Perhaps a simple answer would be to ban shoots who's bag is less than, say, 350 then the problem would be solved.

But seriously, it's not the game dealer price that matters, it's placing the bird in the food chain that counts and this is where the large shoots excel. Much easier to contract with a dealer when you're talking 1000's a week or instal processing facilities and employ staff to produce oven ready birds to be sold or given away.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Very little there I cannot agree with Scully BUTwhen the 'game' starts to get to where feathred targets are presented purely to make them almost impossible to kill cleanly....remember...16 to 1 and that probably with very heavy shotloads and guns to match .... I personally will criticise, the same I will criticise anyone who brags about shooting at deer at very long extended ranges when they should learn to hunt/stalk, or persists in taking head shots with a good chance of blowing off a lower jaw for others to tidy up later.   Oh, my rifle will put every shot on a 10p pice at 200yrds I hear them say, but does that 10p piece move unexpectedly at all?   There comes a point when it is not on I'm afraid.

That's fair enough, but it's worthwhile remembering why we do what we do....and that's for the entertainment value. Sport. To shoot pheasants on the ground with a .22lr would mean very few pricked birds, and much more humane than wing shooting, but where's the 'sport' in that?  

I know a woman who had over 70 shots this last season, on one drive, for two birds. They weren't extreme birds by any means, she just couldn't shoot. Who knows how many she pricked. 😉

[stagboy]

1 hour ago, CharlieT said:

I would suggest that depressed game prices are not caused by what you rudely call the big bag brigade, but the growing popularity of game shooting, which in turn has resulted in the huge increase in the number of game shoots. I agree though that it is incumbent on shoots to ensure that all fit game enters the food chain. 

 

I see no evidence that there has been any real  growth in the number of game shoots overall - only in the size of the total UK bag, caused by a relatively small proportion of shoots that produce increasingly large bags, I believe. And the ensuing oversupply of game meat is now a key problem for driven game shooting, no matter what the size of the shoot, not to mention issues associated with overstocking etc.  Anybody who participates in a shoot - of any size, commercial or private  - should satisfy themselves that it is obeying the Code of Good Shooting Practice, which basically stipulates that game must not be shot unless it has a pre-arranged market for human consumption. That's what I mean by taking responsibility. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by stagboy

[Scully]

36 minutes ago, stagboy said:

I see no evidence that there has been any real  growth in the number of game shoots overall - only in the size of the total UK bag, caused by a relatively small proportion of shoots that produce increasingly large bags, I believe. And the ensuing oversupply of game meat is now a key problem for driven game shooting, no matter what the size of the shoot, not to mention issues associated with overstocking etc.  Anybody who participates in a shoot - of any size, commercial or private  - should satisfy themselves that it is obeying the Code of Good Shooting Practice, which basically stipulates that game must not be shot unless it has a pre-arranged market for human consumption. That's what I mean by taking responsibility. 

I'm not sure what 'real growth' overall is, but would be interested in knowing where you have looked for your evidence, and for that evidence in the growth of the total UK bag, if you can't supply evidence of the former? Who is overstocking? How do we determine when it has taken place? Surely the size of the ground determines what it can hold? Birds can be ordered with percentages lost in mind against percentages returned, but overloading capacity won't guarantee returns so where is the logic in this? 

Either way, I don't know of any shoots which organise a 'pre-arranged market for human consumption' prior to ordering it's birds for the season. Think it through.

How many commercial ( or none commercial for that matter ) shoots do you know of which call round game dealers prior to ordering their birds, and on being told there is no market for them, then decide to cancel shooting for that season? 

[grahamch]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

That's fair enough, but it's worthwhile remembering why we do what we do....and that's for the entertainment value. Sport. To shoot pheasants on the ground with a .22lr would mean very few pricked birds, and much more humane than wing shooting, but where's the 'sport' in that?  

I know a woman who had over 70 shots this last season, on one drive, for two birds. They weren't extreme birds by any means, she just couldn't shoot. Who knows how many she pricked. 😉

Then surely she should have been sent home, or was she a paying punter?

[Scully]

9 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Then surely she should have been sent home, or was she a paying punter?

She had paid for the day. It was only her second day on live quarry and she had a loader/mentor. 

I wouldn’t send anyone home for being a poor shot. A mate once shot a box and a half of cartridges for one bird, but he was smiling like a Cheshire cat, thoroughly enjoyed his day. I know folk who have grown up learning to shoot on nothing else but live quarry; makes you wonder how many birds they have wounded too in the process of learning to shoot, doesn't it? 

 

[stagboy]

59 minutes ago, Scully said:

I'm not sure what 'real growth' overall is, but would be interested in knowing where you have looked for your evidence, and for that evidence in the growth of the total UK bag, if you can't supply evidence of the former? Who is overstocking? How do we determine when it has taken place? Surely the size of the ground determines what it can hold? Birds can be ordered with percentages lost in mind against percentages returned, but overloading capacity won't guarantee returns so where is the logic in this? 

Either way, I don't know of any shoots which organise a 'pre-arranged market for human consumption' prior to ordering it's birds for the season. Think it through.

How many commercial ( or none commercial for that matter ) shoots do you know of which call round game dealers prior to ordering their birds, and on being told there is no market for them, then decide to cancel shooting for that season? 

RE release and bag trends, I suggest you look at the GWCT website.https://www.gwct.org.uk/research/species/birds/common-pheasant/  Or the recent Madden study, published in the European Journal of Wildlife Research,https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10344-018-1199-5 the intro of which states (my emphasis): "Each year, pheasants Phasianus colchicus are artificially reared in captivity (hereafter ‘reared’) and released into the UK countryside for game shooting. Numbers of released game birds have been put at 25 million (Sage et al. 2005), 34.9 million (BASC 2015), 40 million (PACEC 2008) and 50 million (including partridges at likely < 20%) (Harper 2014; Winter 2013). Interpretations of such data vary and exact numbers are disputed. Regardless, there is a general pattern of increased release numbers over the past 50 years, with around nine times as many pheasants released in 2011 compared to 1961 when monitoring began (Robertson et al. 2017). 

In any case, the collapse of the market price for game meat speaks for itself; we are shooting more game than the market wants.

Re the purported increase in the number of game shoots, where is the evidence? Shotgun certificates are fewer now than in the 1980s.  According to the latest (2017) GunsOnPegs/Strutt and Parker shoot survey: "The majority of game shoots in the UK are small, DIY syndicated or private shoots that shoot a handful of small bag days. However, just over 7% of shoots accounted for half of the total number of birds put down and shot."

RE Code of Good Shooting practice, you seem to be suggesting that most commercial shoots are breaking it. I do hope not. The relevant section of the code (4) states: Shoot managers must ensure they have appropriate arrangements in place for the sale or consumption of the anticipated bag in advance of all shoot days. 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by stagboy

[sabel25]

33 minutes ago, Scully said:

I'm not sure what 'real growth' overall is, but would be interested in knowing where you have looked for your evidence, and for that evidence in the growth of the total UK bag, if you can't supply evidence of the former? Who is overstocking? How do we determine when it has taken place? Surely the size of the ground determines what it can hold? Birds can be ordered with percentages lost in mind against percentages returned, but overloading capacity won't guarantee returns so where is the logic in this? 

Either way, I don't know of any shoots which organise a 'pre-arranged market for human consumption' prior to ordering it's birds for the season. Think it through.

How many commercial ( or none commercial for that matter ) shoots do you know of which call round game dealers prior to ordering their birds, and on being told there is no market for them, then decide to cancel shooting for that season? 

Second that scully

There's no shoot that can predetermin the future market

I think stagboy  may not know the current system which started at the begining of this last season regarding game dealers

Prior to this last season game dealers paid the estates for game birds ie 75p per partridge and around 70p per pheasant  But this season the estaes have had to pay the dealers anything from 35p upwards per bird so they are being paid at both ends with the idea that this cost was to be passed on to the gun Thus to get the game into the food chain through an accredited system where estates would be checked out and like other meat would have a traceable background

I don'nt mind this as being a beater on the estate i go we could only get the odd brace up to the xmas period by which time there's alot of game hitting the market and the dealer prices were reducing so they did'nt mind us taking more game

But this season we were told to take what we wanted from day one Which meant i could fill my freezer and my mates freezers and supply a lot of my neighbours with lovely organic meat

and still had others wanting birds and this applied to all beaters and pickers up

Therefore all game shot on this estate went for  human cosumption and all birds we shot on beaters days were being processed and handed out to all the tenants on the estate

[Scully]

Thanks for that, will have a look tomorrow. 

Regarding commercial shoots; I asked if you know of any which ring game dealers and then cancel the season if told there is no market for their birds. I don’t know of any, do you? 

[Scully]

1 minute ago, sabel25 said:

Second that scully

There's no shoot that can predetermin the future market

I think stagboy  may not know the current system which started at the begining of this last season regarding game dealers

Prior to this last season game dealers paid the estates for game birds ie 75p per partridge and around 70p per pheasant  But this season the estaes have had to pay the dealers anything from 35p upwards per bird so they are being paid at both ends with the idea that this cost was to be passed on to the gun Thus to get the game into the food chain through an accredited system where estates would be checked out and like other meat would have a traceable background

I don'nt mind this as being a beater on the estate i go we could only get the odd brace up to the xmas period by which time there's alot of game hitting the market and the dealer prices were reducing so they did'nt mind us taking more game

But this season we were told to take what we wanted from day one Which meant i could fill my freezer and my mates freezers and supply a lot of my neighbours with lovely organic meat

and still had others wanting birds and this applied to all beaters and pickers up

Therefore all game shot on this estate went for  human cosumption and all birds we shot on beaters days were being processed and handed out to all the tenants on the estate

Good to hear. Sounds similar to around here.

Some shoots are beginning to process shot birds themselves ( some can afford it ) which was the case in Leicestershire, the only problem being it fell foul of legislation regarding disposal of carcasses following that process. 

[stagboy]

4 minutes ago, sabel25 said:

Therefore all game shot on this estate went for  human cosumption and all birds we shot on beaters days were being processed and handed out to all the tenants on the estate 

Well, this sounds like it is meeting the Code of Good Shooting Practice, so that's good. But what a pity that we see high quality, free range game meat effectively being given away these days. 

[dougall]

Whatever our personal thoughts on a day and bag size I do think that as shooting folk you either agree with shooting game or not and that we should defend all bag sizes and the choice of our fellow sportsmen.Limits on wild birds say woodcock/geese etc at certain times is just responsible stewardship,capping the bag on a shoot which rears the birds to be shot is frankly only constrained by the wallet. For most is the 'craic' of the whole day/mates/catering/banter/great day out and the shooting of 'x' number of birds just part of that formula. After a while you settle on a number constrained by the group with whom you wish to shoot..I personally would much rather having 120-150 selected crackers than 350 shoot everything,but as I have done that in the past I would wish to defend all options so the choice remains open to those that wish to. Give me 50 decoying pigeons on a windy day for pure shooting 'pleasure' than 50 driven pheasant. But for a day out with 8 mates/night in a hotel swelling the Liver on claret the driven day still takes some beating!

The 500 bird estates who tractor them into a pit won't survive;I just hope they don't take us all down with them!

[sabel25]

8 hours ago, stagboy said:

Well, this sounds like it is meeting the Code of Good Shooting Practice, so that's good. But what a pity that we see high quality, free range game meat effectively being given away these days. 

Simple

It's bacause of bad press reports Antis voicing off about nothing they don'nt understand and think all meat comes in polythene wrappers and milk comes in polythene bottles from the super market  These are the people that eat chicken in all unimaginable forms that have been reared in sheds force fed on **** and are slaughtered within 8 weeks and been proven to be unhealthy for human consumption in large amounts

In regards to your facts and figures you have listed  I would say there are more applications for SGC's now and rising as there are alot of youngsters coming into the sport and especialy female shooters which we try and encourage

As regards birds being put down There are   many factors to take into consideration 

One of the main is the demise of the grouse through disease caused with the tick Thus alot of grouse moores closing Thus some put more partridge down to have a grouse drive

There's also the demise of the English grey partridge which used to be abundant

We have a high volume of predatory birds now that are protected which account for high volumes of loss ( which put a local  self employed lad out of business on his shoot ) All due to the RSPB taking the law into there own hands Where a high court judge proved them of malpractice ( but that's another story )

Loss of poults through severe bad wet weather

abundance of fox taking birds

Desease accounting for huge losses

Thus estates have to restock to retain numbers to keep the shoot running and to fulfill the let days

Guns on pegs  Well in the halsyon days of corporate days Companies would lay on shoot days for their business associates which have long gone

In the last decade, i being a working class bloke as are my friends, are able to pick up some good days on various estates all over the N East and Scotland at reasonable prices and youngsters join us  And we are all treated the same ( with one exception that we go round the beaters and pickers up with some food and drinks to show our appreciation for what they do as we know full well what they contribute and to see their smiles on their faces )

I have no quarms about shoots having a 500 bird day as you know these are well organised and profesionaly run

The estate i go to do 100, 120, 150, 200 bird days and 200 takes some doing and are rare

Edited February 19, 2019 by sabel25

[Jonno243]

10 hours ago, stagboy said:

Well, this sounds like it is meeting the Code of Good Shooting Practice, so that's good. But what a pity that we see high quality, free range game meat effectively being given away these days. 

It is arguable that it is in fact not being "given" away. Those birds have already been bought and paid for by the guns...

[stagboy]

10 hours ago, sabel25 said:

Simple

Well, yes, it is "simple" - too much game meat (supply), not enough of a market (demand). But that's not just my own opinion. Here is what the British Game Alliance states on its website, under FAQs:

"The BGA is the only organisation tackling the ever-increasing issue of oversupply of game on to the market as well as implementing credible self-regulation. We cannot afford for the issue to worsen as it is our Achilles heel and if allowed to continue to crash would result in government intervention and subsequently shooting being heavily restricted. We have been warned of this as far up as No 10."

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by stagboy

[scolopax]

On 17/02/2019 at 20:56, Perazzishot said:

 

 

[Scully]

50 minutes ago, stagboy said:

Well, yes, it is "simple" - too much game meat (supply), not enough of a market (demand). But that's not just my own opinion. Here is what the British Game Alliance states on its website, under FAQs:

"The BGA is the only organisation tackling the ever-increasing issue of oversupply of game on to the market as well as implementing credible self-regulation. We cannot afford for the issue to worsen as it is our Achilles heel and if allowed to continue to crash would result in government intervention and subsequently shooting being heavily restricted. We have been warned of this as far up as No 10."

 

Then it would indeed appear by the post above, that shoots are NOT complying with the code of good practise....’ ever increasing issue of  oversupply of game onto the market’. Like I said, I don’t know of any shoots which ring around to ensure an outlet prior to ordering birds.....and for the third time of asking, do you? 

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Like I said, I don’t know of any shoots which ring around to ensure an outlet prior to ordering birds.....and for the third time of asking, do you? 

When I used to run a (medium sized) shoot (over 20 years ago now) several shoots locally made arrangements with a major game dealer (in eastern England) well in advance of the season starting.  That way the game dealer could arrange the pick up days to visit (at least 3) medium to large shoots within a few miles of each other with their refrigerated lorry.  If I remember right there was a weekly 'pick-up' in a particular day that had a route visited many shoots in the day's travel.  It had no relation to ordering the birds, and had no contracted price (which was changed per week and was minimal after Christmas).

In those days I believe most went to the continent.

[scolopax]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Then it would indeed appear by the post above, that shoots are NOT complying with the code of good practise....’ ever increasing issue of  oversupply of game onto the market’. Like I said, I don’t know of any shoots which ring around to ensure an outlet prior to ordering birds.....and for the third time of asking, do you? 

 

Most big shoots will make or confirm arrangements before the seson begins, they will not go into the season on a wing and a pray,  but there is an increasing perception that dead game is now a problematic by product of the commercial shooting industry.  It does need a long term solution. 

[stagboy]

22 minutes ago, Scully said:

Like I said, I don’t know of any shoots which ring around to ensure an outlet prior to ordering birds.....and for the third time of asking, do you? 

No. Can't be bothered to ask, even, because the question is irrelevant and a distraction from my point, which is that that the Code of Good Shooting Practice stipulates that game is to be treated as food, and shoots shouldn't produce game unless they know can dispose of it properly, ie into the human food chain.  Exactly how they do that is up to them - some give it away, it seems, from earlier posts. Fair enough; as long as it isn't wasted. Anybody who participates in a shoot should, to my mind, satisfy themselves that it is abiding by the Code. It's irresponsible to do anything else, in my opinion.

Here is the relevant section of the Code, once again:  "Shoot managers must ensure they have appropriate arrangements in place for the sale or consumption of the anticipated bag in advance of all shoot days." If you don't agree with this,  then that's up to you. I am sure the antis would welcome you with open arms. 

Now, the current "oversupply" of game meat is an observable fact. Whatever the reason, it exists. That's why shoots are giving it away - or even paying for it to be taken away.

We need to recognise this basic fact in order to deal with it. And the evidence (see links in earlier posts) suggests that both the total number and the density of pheasant rearing has increased greatly in recent decades. Yet I see no evidence that the overall number of game shoots has increased markedly over the same time. So, this suggests that some of the big shoots are getting even bigger. Hence more game is flooding the market. And this has led to problems for shoots of all sizes, in my opinion, as the commercial value of game meat has collapsed, depriving shoots of income, and at the same time giving the antis potent ammunition to attack the public perception of game and game shooting.

The BGA, it seems, is attempting to address the current supply/demand imbalance by stimulating demand, rather than restricting supply. That's a perfectly respectable position. I wish them well. 

 

[Scully]

29 minutes ago, scolopax said:

Most big shoots will make or confirm arrangements before the seson begins, they will not go into the season on a wing and a pray,  but there is an increasing perception that dead game is now a problematic by product of the commercial shooting industry.  It does need a long term solution. 

I agree, a long term solution is needed, but arranging for collection of shot birds isn’t what I’m disputing. I know of a big commercial shoot which is paid pennies per bird for collection (even pigeons are collected ) and the difference is paid for by the guns, and I know of a shoot within ten miles of this one where they actually pay for their birds to be collected; again, the difference being paid for by the guns.

What I want to know is if anyone knows of any shoots which cancel the delivery of birds or indeed shoot days when faced with no outlet for shot birds. I don’t. 

[sabel25]

Perhaps if it was promoted properly to the general public  Organic low fat high protien etc etc

They should have one or two of these ponsey chefs that appear on numerous cookery programmes to push this healthy product  instead of them showing us how to cook a bloody turkey every christmas or an inemic chicken breast

Promoted and packaged with organic and a tractor stamped on, it will sell  Shops and super markets will make big profit from a product that they'll buy in relatively cheap

[scolopax]

22 minutes ago, Scully said:

I agree, a long term solution is needed, but arranging for collection of shot birds isn’t what I’m disputing. I know of a big commercial shoot which is paid pennies per bird for collection (even pigeons are collected ) and the difference is paid for by the guns, and I know of a shoot within ten miles of this one where they actually pay for their birds to be collected; again, the difference being paid for by the guns.

What I want to know is if anyone knows of any shoots which cancel the delivery of birds or indeed shoot days when faced with no outlet for shot birds. I don’t. 

to take it to the extreme and totally hypothetically.....the industry has some form PR disaster, and there is no market or outlet for the vast majority of shot game....Is it ethical / justifiable for a shoot to continue knowing that the birds will be disposed of as waste at the end of each shoot day ?   Would revenue made and spent and gamekeepers job make such actions justifiable?    

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by scolopax