410s capability patterns and range

[London Best]

I believe that is the biggest load you can put in a 2.5 in case.

i have little success with Eley fourlong, they are only 12.5 gram load and do not sound anywhere near as powerful as the Express 14 gram. 

 

Having said that, somebody gave me 50 Eley 2in 9 gram ctgs, loaded with no6’s, only 83 pellets and I took them and used them on clays and was astounded what they broke!

[gotgcoalman]

I've re loaded 2.5"  fourlong cases with 15g of #5.

[Farmboy91]

24 minutes ago, London Best said:

I believe that is the biggest load you can put in a 2.5 in case.

i have little success with Eley fourlong, they are only 12.5 gram load and do not sound anywhere near as powerful as the Express 14 gram. 

Yeah the difference is definitely noticeable the trap load really does snap out of a light gun, I picked them over the Express mainly because the were 7.5'

[lancer425]

I made up 11 of the 14 gram FES 2.5 inch loads with the 146 grain of enforcer i was given in the bottom of a tub.  i tried 2 at 20 yards 3 at 25 yard  3 at 30 and 3 at 35 yard and this was through full choked Spanish single of mine.  "0 yard as expected was acceptable and i think neater than Express or eley factory but not as good as the fiocci 2.5s but i loaded 6s and the fiocchis were 7s so  not an exact comparison but did look  less patchy and more even spread to me.

25 yard patterns looked better surprisingly more open but all three looked more even overall than the other loads i tried last week, the 30 yard looked again more open but even but the lack of pellets were beginning to show and i can see now where 7s or 71/2s would be a better way to go to fill in the gaps a bit more. 35 yards it was getting wide now gaps a bird might get through and looking clumpy on one load in particular.

 I think the 6s would hit hard but in a 14 gram load the count is just not there i purposly did not buffer these loads because the data did not call for it and changing it would potentialy increase pressures, and .410s being up thefre to begin with i think any buffered loads need a bit more research and development put into them.

  I will say these little loads felt punchy and patterened as good as anything i have shot so far and i think with smaller shot could have the potential to be the best i have tried  up to now.

 Loads were rtoed with my home made RTo head and over powder and top cards were cut from fried rice lids from the chinese silver side out they looked positively spiffing.

As well as this load did i do not think its a 35 yard plus game getter its a typical .410 load, i think any longer range loads with real potential will be 3 inch, the 2.5 inch i think has the best chance of being a good patterned, but pellet count lets it down, and even with tight chokes its density is failing before its pellet energy is, that is with 6s at any rate.  7s will help with a few more pellets and 71/2 offer more, but at a price in energy. Now with these light payloads deciding what to use and getting that choice to still pattern is a difficult task and i have some way to go yet.

[London Best]

I think of my .410’s (English doubles) as 30 yard guns and treat any further kill as a bit lucky, despite odd successes at around the 40 yard mark.

No.7 shot retains (just)  sufficient energy to kill game at 45 yards as is proven every shoot day ( ounce loads, obviously, not .410).

[lancer425]

Yes i think 7s or 71/2s as some others sugest is the way with these guns, certainly with 2.5 inch around half oz loads.

 i like SP3 and think i will base my next move around this powder, and the next up is Buffer and wrapper, and will again go 2.5 inch and 14 gram see if i cant hold the job together that bit more at the 35 yard mark might try for 40. i think if you got a multi choke ran some good tight chokes you would get the patterns if you could hit with these small patterns at range.

Another option is steel 3/8 oz load and 5s or 6s less pellets less kenetic energy but less crunching of the lead in the bore and chokes, so you might get more on the place its needed with the bigger shot size in the steel, it should still do the deed, only think might get in the way is pressure, but with lighter load you might get more velocity and it could cancel out the negatives, if you can get it to pattern, if not its going to be good for 15 to 20 yards not the 20 to 30 i think is realistic with properly loaded lead.

[Walker570]

All good stuff.  Judging yardage on a shoot day is not easy and I am in no doubt that many times people including myself judge a bird to have been at 35yrds when it was closer to 25 and 45yrds up in the sky with nothing to aid judgement is not easy at all.   I probably fire between 800 and 900 cartridges a year at driven game with a 410 and judge that the majoirty of birds are between 20 to 30yrds.  I have a small wood here at home and it is planted with poplars. We thin a few and at the moment measured with a tape they are around 80ft high...that is 27yrds.  A partridge flying above those trees would be around 30yrds up and considered by me and most of those I shoot with to be a good bird to extend that another 10yrds and it would be classed as exceptional, so my feeling is we often misjudge the distance at which we actually kill birds . On two occasions I know almost to the yard how far one of my reloads killed a) a pheasant and b) a partridge.  Paced out the pheasant was 52 of my paces(I'm 6ft1inchtall) stone dead and the partridge was 58 of my paces, both incidents witnessed and commented on.

Put he bird in the pattern of #7s from a 410 and it will do the job.    As a picker up on many occasions over the years, I have had my dogs retrieve a lot of birds not cleanly killed by 12s, 20s, 16s where the bird was not fully in the pattern.  I come across many shooters on driven days who have the latest in 'cannon shells' who do not sem to have the same success I do.  My average over the last three seasons has been in the region of 2.7 to 1.  I know this because a) I reload so pick my empties religiously, well my wife does and usually turns out all the days empties on the kitchen top when we get home and she also keeps tabs on what I actually connect with.

With any gauge it is important to be able to not lift the gun when you know that bird is not in range where you can kill it cleanly. Not wing it or ***** it and I am sure we have all seen the gun who shoots at birds 70 -80 or more yards away.

The 410 will do the job if you do.

[lancer425]

Agree with all that walker 570.  I can relate to the range estimation aspect only too well, its not easy judging distances and the old books i feel got it wrong when people were shooting at massive ranges, i think this is often the case in wild fowling too many claim high shooting when in actual fact the birds are in range its just the shooter or the load sometimes both were just not up to the task.  As a discipline i think the .410 is a fantastic medium, it demands involvement both in the handling and shooting and working out what works, if all 12 bore shooters put the work in to their gun s the die hard .410 people do the world would be a better place.

12s dont give any markedly relivent marksmanship advantage over a .410 what they bring to bear is a slightly bigger pattern and more pellets with a bigger bore less shot deformation and of course the shorter wad column to bare ratio again giving soft shot a chance to pattern acceptably.

Its all relative and in my view interesting patterning anything, and ,410 is just one fickle round that if it were a child it would be that  screaming and demanding  attention little bratt .

 Onward and upwards And buffer next up and i want to do this right so will make a couple of boxes and do five rounds a pattern, and i will try and video it with my new go pro clone i got for my birthday.

[London Best]

@ Walker570

Very interesting about the measured poplars being 27 yds high. Lancer is right, of course, about range estimation. It is very difficult when a bird is up in the sky, and to be honest most folks don’t have a clue. Any bird clearing a poplar would be considered a good one. Oak trees usually top out at about 12 yds high, so your average farm shoot pheasant flying over one on level ground is maybe 15 yards up.

Neville, you may not remember me, but I remember you and Frieda well. 

Clues: Buildwas Park, Bretby Park, SJB, stalking on the neighbouring ground at Hereford? Ring any bells? I spent a lot of time helping Steve and was once up for a trip to Poland with you but it didn’t happen.

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

@ Walker570

Very interesting about the measured poplars being 27 yds high. Lancer is right, of course, about range estimation. It is very difficult when a bird is up in the sky, and to be honest most folks don’t have a clue. Any bird clearing a poplar would be considered a good one. Oak trees usually top out at about 12 yds high, so your average farm shoot pheasant flying over one on level ground is maybe 15 yards up.

Neville, you may not remember me, but I remember you and Frieda well. 

Clues: Buildwas Park, Bretby Park, SJB, stalking on the neighbouring ground at Hereford? Ring any bells? I spent a lot of time helping Steve and was once up for a trip to Poland with you but it didn’t happen.

Happy days. best regards.

[lancer425]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=2ahUKEwiRzbXFkJ7iAhVDrHEKHav3BWwQFjAFegQIBRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fourten.org.uk%2Fgram_crak-r1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2ce36IOhMJolCNeL1jaYH8

[gotgcoalman]

what's the "standard distance" for patterning a .410?

12 bore is 40 yards @ 30" circle.

.410 is.............

answers on a post card.

I have some factory load 3" and 2.5".

Loaded some 3" and 2.5".

Old wall paper found to act as a target.

correct amount of shot spilt on the floor while loading for the wife to find tomorrow.

[Stonepark]

Lancer,

 

Just to pitch in and summarise discussions I have had and as noted by others above the 410 is an experts gun used most often used by the young. In effect, due to the very limited tolerances on both gun design (chamber lengths, forcing cones, chokes, bore diameter) and ammunition (pressure, shot size, shot load), if any of these are significantly out of the sweet spot, pattterns are less than effective. With a larger bore, there is more room to manouver to still get an adequate performance but not with 410.

Chamber lengths - putting 2 inch or 2 1/2 inch cartridges through 3 inch gun does not give a good seal and therefore disturbed patterns

Forcing cones - very short cones do not work well with the long narrow shot column of the 3 inch case

Chokes - Most  410's are over choked for use. In my multichoke (Khan/Revo K226), anything more than 12-15 thou and the patterns degrades and gets worse than the lesser chokes. if your patterns are always patchy and random, this is a sign of possible overchoking issues. Over choking also results in patterns narrower than required, making the chance of missing higher, especially when this is meant to be a close range gun. The above 12 - 15 thou with home loads gives me a 64% pattern at 35 yards (about 5% behind optimum) in a 30 inch circle.

Bore diameter -  not a good idea to run over sized bores as as well as pressure losses, this again this interacts with chokes giving pattern issues

Pressure - Until the advent of the 3 1/2 inch 12 bore which matches, the 410 was the highest running pressure gun. Even normal 410 loads are still at the high end of 12 bore loads and therefore need a minimum of 3% antimony for subsonic, 5% antimony for normal pressure to resist deformation of pellets on firing within the chamber. For full pressure 410 loads 6% antimony pellets are required.

Shot size -  2 inch No9  has a 20 yard range even when almost subsonic, 2 1/2 inch No 8 has a 30 yard range, 3 inch No 7.5 or 7 to give a 35 yard range (pushable to 40 in the heavier loadings) Any bigger shot size for each cartridge and the patterns go to pants at leser ranges. Why use a pellet capable of killing at 50 yards (No6) or larger and longer, if the pattern peteres out at 25 yards no matter the choke for small/medium game - .However there is an argument for a No4 load (in Scotland over decoys) for geese with a 40 yard range).

Shot load - 3 inch loadings are generally  getting lighter (down to 16g in some cases). I run 21g loads at the supersonic mark and have no issues with killing pheasants, partridge, pigeons, crows etc over 4 seasons. If I try for more speed (more powder and higher pressure) with 3% antimony shot the pattern goes patchy within 1gr of extra powder. My next loadings will all be 5% antimony clay shot (euro 7.5 ) and I will see what i can squeeze out of them speed wise by upping powder load until the pattern begins to degrade due to pressure.

If I can be of any help, drop me a PM.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

Lancer,

 

Just to pitch in and summarise discussions I have had and as noted by others above the 410 is an experts gun used most often used by the young. In effect, due to the very limited tolerances on both gun design (chamber lengths, forcing cones, chokes, bore diameter) and ammunition (pressure, shot size, shot load), if any of these are significantly out of the sweet spot, pattterns are less than effective. With a larger bore, there is more room to manouver to still get an adequate performance but not with 410.

Chamber lengths - putting 2 inch or 2 1/2 inch cartridges through 3 inch gun does not give a good seal and therefore disturbed patterns

Forcing cones - very short cones do not work well with the long narrow shot column of the 3 inch case

Chokes - Most  410's are over choked for use. In my multichoke (Khan/Revo K226), anything more than 12-15 thou and the patterns degrades and gets worse than the lesser chokes. if your patterns are always patchy and random, this is a sign of possible overchoking issues. Over choking also results in patterns narrower than required, making the chance of missing higher, especially when this is meant to be a close range gun. The above 12 - 15 thou with home loads gives me a 64% pattern at 35 yards (about 5% behind optimum) in a 30 inch circle.

Bore diameter -  not a good idea to run over sized bores as as well as pressure losses, this again this interacts with chokes giving pattern issues

Pressure - Until the advent of the 3 1/2 inch 12 bore which matches, the 410 was the highest running pressure gun. Even normal 410 loads are still at the high end of 12 bore loads and therefore need a minimum of 3% antimony for subsonic, 5% antimony for normal pressure to resist deformation of pellets on firing within the chamber. For full pressure 410 loads 6% antimony pellets are required.

Shot size -  2 inch No9  has a 20 yard range even when almost subsonic, 2 1/2 inch No 8 has a 30 yard range, 3 inch No 7.5 or 7 to give a 35 yard range (pushable to 40 in the heavier loadings) Any bigger shot size for each cartridge and the patterns go to pants at leser ranges. Why use a pellet capable of killing at 50 yards (No6) or larger and longer, if the pattern peteres out at 25 yards no matter the choke for small/medium game - .However there is an argument for a No4 load (in Scotland over decoys) for geese with a 40 yard range).

Shot load - 3 inch loadings are generally  getting lighter (down to 16g in some cases). I run 21g loads at the supersonic mark and have no issues with killing pheasants, partridge, pigeons, crows etc over 4 seasons. If I try for more speed (more powder and higher pressure) with 3% antimony shot the pattern goes patchy within 1gr of extra powder. My next loadings will all be 5% antimony clay shot (euro 7.5 ) and I will see what i can squeeze out of them speed wise by upping powder load until the pattern begins to degrade due to pressure.

If I can be of any help, drop me a PM.

Thanks again points taken on board and clearly understood and thanks for the kind offer of advice , what is clear with and  everybody here and even the video .410 guru all saying 7s 7 1/2 even 8s i think its the way to go from now on.

I only have a kilo or so of 71/2 and its old eley i guess about 3% shot and will date from the  80s i don’t use 71/2s in loads normally but .410 looks the exception now. 

 

[lancer425]

With the lead of 3% crumbling under presure mentioned here. I thought about Steel. I know its lighter and i know you only get 3/8 oz in the TPS wads, but could you not use 2.7/ 2.8 6 steel in 3/8 oz loads and get enough pellets to get through the internal balistics of the .410 to still give steel a shout against the degraded lead loosing lead pellets to the rigours of a small bore hight pressure shotgun.  Whats the opinion on this ?

[Walker570]

As I have said many times before, I pattern at a measured 35yrds (tape measure) cannot say if that is a standard measurment, it is certainly mine.

17 hours ago, gotgcoalman said:

what's the "standard distance" for patterning a .410?

12 bore is 40 yards @ 30" circle.

.410 is.............

answers on a post card.

I have some factory load 3" and 2.5".

Loaded some 3" and 2.5".

Old wall paper found to act as a target.

correct amount of shot spilt on the floor while loading for the wife to find tomorrow.

 

[neutron619]

Haven't updated this in ages, but some data:

http://www.smallboreshotguns.com/410-bore/410-cartridges/

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, neutron619 said:

Haven't updated this in ages, but some data:

http://www.smallboreshotguns.com/410-bore/410-cartridges/

WOW! guess what i am doing after tea tonight . Thank you!

[gotgcoalman]

well the link confirms what happened today.

Shooting wallpaper using 2.5"-3" fartory load Eley #6 and the homeload #5 in the same cases.

large shot in a .410 is a distinct disadvantage.

 

[motty]

I

8 hours ago, lancer425 said:

With the lead of 3% crumbling under presure mentioned here. I thought about Steel. I know its lighter and i know you only get 3/8 oz in the TPS wads, but could you not use 2.7/ 2.8 6 steel in 3/8 oz loads and get enough pellets to get through the internal balistics of the .410 to still give steel a shout against the degraded lead loosing lead pellets to the rigours of a small bore hight pressure shotgun.  Whats the opinion on this ?

I have shot quite a few pigeons with 24gm 7 1/2 steel in the 12. I think the actual diameter is 2.5mm. They performed nicely out to 35 yards or so. I think a steel 7 1/2 would give a decent pattern at 30 yards or more.

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, motty said:

I

I have shot quite a few pigeons with 24gm 7 1/2 steel in the 12. I think the actual diameter is 2.5mm. They performed nicely out to 35 yards or so. I think a steel 7 1/2 would give a decent pattern at 30 yards or more.

Well going on your  71/2 2.5mm steel prompt, looking at non tox size chart which as caught me out before and sticking to mms as clase as possible. The 7 1/2 were probably 7s at 2.54mm thats 422 to the ounce.  so TPS wad takes 3/8ths so thats a steel pellet count of around 160 pellets.

Going for a lead 1/2 oz comparison load. and going for a lead 7 at 2.4mm and 340 to the oz gives a half oz load count of 170 . so pellet count is same more or less and you might just squeeze a few more pellets in under typical steel set back and get the extra ten pellet shortfall in that way.

So despite the drop in load by 1/8 oz the less dense theoreticaly less lethal steel still has a comparative pellet count. And i imagine it will be possible to get a little more velocity , add to this the fact no steel pellets are going to be sacrificed on the internal ballistics compared to the lead loads that will lose some. Steel looks in a better shape as a 3/8 oz load in the .410, and i imagine will pattern better, but the last comment is pure speculation on my part, but i think its got enough going for it even with the shortfall in energy of steel to make it worth a look.

[motty]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

Well going on your  71/2 2.5mm steel prompt, looking at non tox size chart which as caught me out before and sticking to mms as clase as possible. The 7 1/2 were probably 7s at 2.54mm thats 422 to the ounce.  so TPS wad takes 3/8ths so thats a steel pellet count of around 160 pellets.

Going for a lead 1/2 oz comparison load. and going for a lead 7 at 2.4mm and 340 to the oz gives a half oz load count of 170 . so pellet count is same more or less and you might just squeeze a few more pellets in under typical steel set back and get the extra ten pellet shortfall in that way.

So despite the drop in load by 1/8 oz the less dense theoreticaly less lethal steel still has a comparative pellet count. And i imagine it will be possible to get a little more velocity , add to this the fact no steel pellets are going to be sacrificed on the internal ballistics compared to the lead loads that will lose some. Steel looks in a better shape as a 3/8 oz load in the .410, and i imagine will pattern better, but the last comment is pure speculation on my part, but i think its got enough going for it even with the shortfall in energy of steel to make it worth a look.

Can't disagree with any if that. If I could be bothered, I would probably load steel in the .410 for pigeons and ducks, and hw18 for geese.

[lancer425]

HW 18 in the .410 would change everything you could go with 8s or 9s and get the pellet count up there with a 12 on lead and lose nothing in the energy per pellet stakes such loads would be lethal.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

43 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

HW 18 in the .410 would change everything you could go with 8s or 9s and get the pellet count up there with a 12 on lead and lose nothing in the energy per pellet stakes such loads would be lethal.

To what sort of range?

[lancer425]

6 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

To what sort of range?

Size dependent what range  just like any shot. i think 40yards is a real possibility with 9s certainly 7s or 8s and with decent pellet counts, bigger payloads bigger shot which you will get in a tps wad with TSS will push ranges out more.  an idea in what you are dealing with here in these charts. . Its impressive stuff.

Lead Shot

Lead #2: 89/oz
Lead #4: 136/oz
Lead #5: 173/oz
Lead #6: 222/oz
Lead #7: 295/oz


12g/cc Shot (Hevi-Shot, Hevi-13, Win XRHD, Rem HD)

12g/cc #2: 81/oz
12g/cc #4: 125/oz
12g/cc #5: 159/oz
12g/cc #6: 209/oz
12g/cc #7: 278/oz


13g/cc Shot (ITX Extreme Turkey Trauma-13, Nitros Megaweight)

13g/cc #2: 75/oz
13g/cc #4: 115/oz
13g/cc #5: 147/oz
13g/cc #6: 193/oz
13g/cc #7: 256/oz
13g/cc #8: 352/oz


15g/cc Shot (Federal Heavyweight, Tungsten Spheres)

15g/cc #2: 65/oz
15g/cc #4: 100/oz
15g/cc #5: 127/oz
15g/cc #6: 165/oz
15g/cc #7: 219/oz
15g/cc #8: 301/oz


18g/cc Shot (TSS)

TSS #2: 54/oz
TSS #4: 83/oz
TSS #5: 106/oz
TSS #6: 139/oz
TSS #7: 185/oz
TSS #8: 254/oz
TSS #9: 362/oz

Edited May 17, 2019 by lancer425