Rewulf Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I said she was financially comfortable, nothing about not being bothered. You said 'This was based on a discussion with my mother-in-law who was saying that she doesn't understand why it's so damned important to certain people of her age group' So if its not important, why did she vote remain ?🙄 5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: The only thing I'm trying to duck is avoiding you totally misrepresenting what I have said for whatever reason it is that you may be doing so. I dont think you know what youre saying to be fair. 6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Now you're changing your story - earlier on you were espousing a list of reasons that the older people know better, now you're saying old and young voted leave for the same reasons. What ? Thats two completely different arguments ! 7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I have no idea how old you are and sharing my views on whether or you are racist is not helpful or relevant here Im 51 , and I didnt ask you for your view on whether Im racist or not, I could be any demographic !! 9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: or are you actually saying that you are old and racist and that's the reason you voted out. See you don't like it and it's not nice is it I dont have a problem with the question, but I thought everyone one who voted leave was a thick racist xenophobe ? Its automatic isnt it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I thought she wasnt bothered , comfortable ect ? Youre ducking and diving now, you said there was factual evidence that the older generation voted more for leave than the young, oowee backed this up with FULLFACT 🙄 Yet it clearly states no such data exists, by simple logic , far more of the UK population are over 30 than under, and far far less are under 25, you know , those poor mites that have had their future 'stolen' What on earth are you trying to establish ? The 'older' people voted to leave for the same reasons that the younger people wanted to leave, or are you saying something different like , Im old and racist , so I want out ? The evidence is there. Its not definitive but there are several surveys all suggesting the same evidence and it's more than reasonable to draw the conclusion strongly that this is the case. If you have an issue with the evidence then present it rather than bluff and bluster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, oowee said: I don't know why you are struggling to be honest. They are all leaving the EU. You may have miss understood the term 'leave the EU' and presumed it meant leave everything to do with Europe 😂 rather than the political entity. How very condescending . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 22 minutes ago, oowee said: Not a GE we want a new ref now. Something that sets the issue on the table properly and unambiguously. In or out and if you want out may or no deal. Simples. Just say we had a new ref - in or out and out won (just for instance). Then there would have to be another asking if we wanted May's deal or no deal. Do you really think parliament would say "OK fair enough. No deal it is then"? Of course they wouldn't which makes the whole idea of any more referendums pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, walshie said: Just say we had a new ref - in or out and out won (just for instance). Then there would have to be another asking if we wanted May's deal or no deal. Do you really think parliament would say "OK fair enough. No deal it is then"? Of course they wouldn't which makes the whole idea of any more referendums pointless. Unless parliament had agreed the wording in advance. They might not do that of course but how else do we break the deadlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 Just now, oowee said: The evidence is there. Its not definitive but there are several surveys all suggesting the same evidence and it's more than reasonable to draw the conclusion strongly that this is the case. If you have an issue with the evidence then present it rather than bluff and bluster. Very funny ! There are NO facts except this one , the UK demographic looks like this. So what is 'young' Decide for yourself where you want that to be, and work out how the 'old' were over represented within leave votes, bearing in mind that the 'old' make up about 75 % of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Rewulf said: How very condescending . You think. ' I don't know why you are struggling to be honest' is more condescending than :- 😀 Hilarious! Mostly options biased towards remain! Why is it so hard to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: You said 'This was based on a discussion with my mother-in-law who was saying that she doesn't understand why it's so damned important to certain people of her age group' So if its not important, why did she vote remain ?🙄 She doesn't understand why it's so important to certain people in her age group to vote out and keep pushing for the extreme version of Brexit - but I think you already know this is what was meant. She actually said it's become almost as extreme and dogmatic as certain aspects of religion where people become aggressive and threatening. I dont think you know what youre saying to be fair. Typical populist put down, very banal. What ? Thats two completely different arguments ! How so? Im 51 , and I didnt ask you for your view on whether Im racist or not, I could be any demographic !! I'm 49 and originate from Africa, just like you. I dont have a problem with the question, but I thought everyone one who voted leave was a thick racist xenophobe ? Its automatic isnt it ? Again, a bit banal chap 😕 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: Unless parliament had agreed the wording in advance. They might not do that of course but how else do we break the deadlock. Article 50 clearly states what happens in case no agreement is made 2 years to the day after is invoked. They could have come to an agreement 2 days after it was invoked. We could have said "We're leaving now, tata", 1 day after it was invoked. The 2 year period was there so that the negotiations weren't interminable. It didn't mean we HAD to stay in for 2 years before making a decision either way. We should have left on 29th March and there are questions hanging over whether the extension was legal. There's no point having an A50 if it is ignored to suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, walshie said: Just say we had a new ref - in or out and out won (just for instance). Then there would have to be another asking if we wanted May's deal or no deal. Do you really think parliament would say "OK fair enough. No deal it is then"? Of course they wouldn't which makes the whole idea of any more referendums pointless. I agree, no deal never was really on the table, people banging on about it on both sides are either living in denial or using it as a scaremongering tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, oowee said: how else do we break the deadlock. There would be no deadlock if Parliament simply carried out on what the referendum decided - and what both Tory and Labour promised in their election manifestos - namely leave the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, Rewulf said: You may have miss understood the term 'leave the EU' and presumed it meant leave everything to do with Europe 😂 rather than the political entity. THAT is condescending. 3 minutes ago, oowee said: 😀 Hilarious! Mostly options biased towards remain! THAT is a fact. 4 minutes ago, oowee said: Why is it so hard to understand? I could ask the same condescending question of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 Just now, oowee said: You think. ' I don't know why you are struggling to be honest' is more condescending than :- 😀 Hilarious! Mostly options biased towards remain! Why is it so hard to understand? Accusations of being patronising and condescending are populist speak for "I don't have a good come back on this" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: THAT is condescending. THAT is a fact. I could ask the same condescending question of you. So a condescending statement received one in reply. Seems fair to me. 3 minutes ago, walshie said: Article 50 clearly states what happens in case no agreement is made 2 years to the day after is invoked. They could have come to an agreement 2 days after it was invoked. We could have said "We're leaving now, tata", 1 day after it was invoked. The 2 year period was there so that the negotiations weren't interminable. It didn't mean we HAD to stay in for 2 years before making a decision either way. We should have left on 29th March and there are questions hanging over whether the extension was legal. There's no point having an A50 if it is ignored to suit. Parliament clearly won't agree no deal. What I can't get my head around is why it was put into legislation in the first place (presumably a negotiating tool) when it was never a realistic option. This is exactly what Sir Ivan Rogers said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 Not sure I understand why everyone who voted on either side needs to be labelled. I MAY be old and racist, or young and racist, or patriotic, or "in the know" about the EU, or stupid, or didn't understand the question, but you'll never know for sure and we all know what assumptions make. Bottom line is my "X" counts every bit as much as the self-proclaimed intelligentsia who voted remain. Did anyone see the tweet from Alistair Campbell this morning because David Davis dared voice his own opinion? How very grown up. You'd think someone who spent his life spinning lies to feed to the nation would have something better to say without resorting to schoolyard profanities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: She doesn't understand why it's so important to certain people in her age group to vote out and keep pushing for the extreme version of Brexit - but I think you already know this is what was meant. She actually said it's become almost as extreme and dogmatic as certain aspects of religion where people become aggressive and threatening. What extreme version of Brexit ? Agressive and threatening ? Where ? Comes back to that same old thing, 'If you voted leave , you are a knuckle dragging thick racist' Its not banal, the term has been used on here during and after the referendum. 8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Typical populist put down, very banal. Aah, that populist word , youre beginning to sound like youre struggling with the argument when that comes out. 10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I'm 49 and originate from Africa, just like you. Im a cat , from space , so no. 🤖 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Mice! said: Your probably right, mostly seasonal work where people come over and work damn hard. A lot of the fruit pickers around Arbroath were living in porta cabins on the farms back in 2002/3 and probably still do? So are they paying tax council tax and everything else the rest of us do, very doubtful indeed. This is why the locals won't do the hard work for low pay, overheads. Yes they are and yes they do, they are accomodated in (generally) good static caravans and the other things that are like statics but no wheels etc. The locals used to do the work but slowly they became disinterested in doing it and the "berry buses" stopped coming, the way of fruit farming also changed as they started to use tunnels and extend the growing season so they were reliant on students and foreign workers. The locals were disinterested in going out and doing the back breaking work long before tunnels became common, now that they are common place and the (straw)berries are at waist level its a lot more efficient and less physically demanding. After a tragedy in Arbroath we spoke to an EE farm worker (not just a picker) who was a GP but made better wages here and was studying here as well so he could eventually practice here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, oowee said: Parliament clearly won't agree no deal. What I can't get my head around is why it was put into legislation in the first place (presumably a negotiating tool) when it was never a realistic option. This is exactly what Sir Ivan Rogers said. They don't have to agree no deal though. If they can't agree to anything, it's the default outcome. They can't extend and extend A50 as they see fit. Being in limbo isn't doing us or the EU any good and it only takes one of the 27 member states not to agree an extension and we're out. I think this fannying about is worse than being in or out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rewulf said: What extreme version of Brexit ? Agressive and threatening ? Where ? Comes back to that same old thing, 'If you voted leave , you are a knuckle dragging thick racist' Its not banal, the term has been used on here during and after the referendum. No deal. Aggressive and threatening just about everywhere on pretty much all platforms. You keep saying all this racist thicko stuff more than anyone else... Aah, that populist word , youre beginning to sound like youre struggling with the argument when that comes out. I think I beat you to this point re: accusations of being condescending Im a cat , from space , so no. 🤖 Cat from space, eh, that explains a lot and if I'd known I'd have gone ahead and earlier asked you how many moons circle your home planet 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, walshie said: They don't have to agree no deal though. If they can't agree to anything, it's the default outcome. They can't extend and extend A50 as they see fit. Being in limbo isn't doing us or the EU any good and it only takes one of the 27 member states not to agree an extension and we're out. I think this fannying about is worse than being in or out. Your right rather than wont agree it, saying they they wont support it would be more accurate. We could withdraw a50 unilaterally but I guess a long extension first is most likely. Which means we have more of this stuff for another year or so before we start the main negotiation. Oh joy. If we stay in for longer and have to vote new EU MP's what a great job that would be 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Cat from space, eh, that explains a lot and if I'd known I'd have gone ahead and earlier asked you how many moons circle your home planet 🙂 4 , any more 'banal' questions ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, oowee said: Your right rather than wont agree it, saying they they wont support it would be more accurate. We could withdraw a50 unilaterally but I guess a long extension first is most likely. Which means we have more of this stuff for another year or so before we start the main negotiation. Oh joy. If we stay in for longer and have to vote new EU MP's what a great job that would be 🙂 A long extension would be political suicide for whoever votes for it. I fail to see the point as it could be 1 year or 10 years but they still wouldn't agree. Much as I despise the goverment and parliament I can't see A50 ever being revoked. Staying in limbo, or staying in the EU in all but name, quite possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, Rewulf said: 4 , any more 'banal' questions ? Turning points made against you back around, lol, thought you were a bit more evolved than that 😛 11 minutes ago, walshie said: A long extension would be political suicide for whoever votes for it. I fail to see the point as it could be 1 year or 10 years but they still wouldn't agree. Much as I despise the goverment and parliament I can't see A50 ever being revoked. Staying in limbo, or staying in the EU in all but name, quite possibly. If the EU paint us into a corner with no deal as the only option I reckon the government could well revoke Article 50 in the blink of an eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Turning points made against you back around, lol, thought you were a bit more evolved than that 😛 Im a highly evolved cat, but Im still a cat, I smell something fishy, Im going for it 7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If the EU paint us into a corner with no deal as the only option I reckon the government could well revoke Article 50 in the blink of an eye I think they know where that leads, they can pick their P45 s up on the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: Im a highly evolved cat, but Im still a cat, I smell something fishy, Im going for it Fresh, saltwater or just plain rotten? I think they know where that leads, they can pick their P45 s up on the way out. It'll be one way of sorting the wheat from the chaff so to speak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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