Result perfect case for the Westley Richards

[alan123shooting]

I had a stroke of luck I have an 1869 Westley Richards bar- in wood hammer gun,  I purchased and renovated a case a few years ago I could not get an original label so had to make do with a reproduction , I found an original case in great condition and has an original label and it fits as if it was made for it. The case case dates from 1858 the gun serial number is faintly recognisable , the label actually dates between 1815-40 

Old case

Edited September 24, 2019 by alan123shooting

[matone]

A nice find,great to put things together like that.

[alan123shooting]

It’s only taken 10 years 

[holloway]

patience is a vertue possess it if you can ....last piece of the jigsaw.

[alan123shooting]

Must admit it is very satisfying bringing them together, a vintage gun without a case is a great shame also as a unimportant fact it increases the value of the gun. 

[Dave at kelton]

Well done! It took me several years to find an original label for WR pinfire and then it did not come cheap but the gun deserves it. 

[Feltwad]

Just now, alan123shooting said:

Must admit it is very satisfying bringing them together, a vintage gun without a case is a great shame also as a unimportant fact it increases the value of the gun. 

I agree these old guns look better in a case be it a muzzle loader ,  a pinfire or an early hammer gun , a mahogany or oak for a muzzle loader or a oak and leather for a pinfire or hammer gun

Feltwad

[alan123shooting]

Must admit it is very satisfying bringing them together, a vintage gun without a case is a great shame also as a unimportant fact it increases the value of the gun. 

13 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

I agree these old guns look better in a case be it a muzzle loader ,  a pinfire or an early hammer gun , a mahogany or oak for a muzzle loader or a oak and leather for a pinfire or hammer gun

Feltwad

The gun is totally original, it is black powder proofed I load the cartridges for it , there is nothing more satisfying , as to knock a pheasant down with a gun that is 150 years old  using the cartridges it would had used. 

[figgy]

Bet the makers never thought at the time their guns would still be loved and used well over a hundred years later. Especially the cases and original labels.

Look very good together.

[alan123shooting]

Thank you, it is the gun’s birthday next month it will be 150 years young it was completed on 13th October 1869  I found this information  from its   history from Westley Richards,  so I raise a glass to it and in true style take it out on its birthday 

[Feltwad]

30 minutes ago, alan123shooting said:

Must admit it is very satisfying bringing them together, a vintage gun without a case is a great shame also as a unimportant fact it increases the value of the gun. 

The gun is totally original, it is black powder proofed I load the cartridges for it , there is nothing more satisfying , as to knock a pheasant down with a gun that is 150 years old  using the cartridges it would had used. 

Wither walking up or driven One pheasant shot with black powder be it a muzzle loader or an early  breach loader is worth at least ten with a modern  over and under.

my load for a hammer gun at driven game is 2.3/4 drms of medium black powder to 1.1/8 oz of number five shot .for a 12 bore a load I have used for the past 71 years

Feltwad

Edited September 24, 2019 by Feltwad

[alan123shooting]

I use 2 1/2 dram medium 1 1/16 oz no 6. Mind you I found 50 Gamebore black powder cartridges languishing at my local gun gun shop a couple of years ago, I got them for a song. 

[JohnfromUK]

11 hours ago, figgy said:

Bet the makers never thought at the time their guns would still be loved and used well over a hundred years later.

I often have the same thought as you.

Nice gun; I have a similar bar in wood Powell from 1871, but sadly no case.  I do however have the correct label (original and unused) given to me by Peter Powell when I bought the gun from William Powell about 32 years ago now.

[Gunman]

Here is a question is it a"bar in the wood" or a " wood bar " as it was always refered to in my Birmingham days   ?

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Gunman said:

Here is a question is it a"bar in the wood" or a " wood bar " as it was always refered to in my Birmingham days   ?

I have heard both used.  I don't know which is right, or they may both be right.  Westley Richards (wood bar) guns also often had what is known (I think) as a 'crab joint' where the forend met the action bar knuckle.

[alan123shooting]

It is bar in wood as literally the wood of the stock come forward and surrounds the bar of the action. They are also known as a crab joint 

[Gunman]

Never hears " crab joint " . But thats the gun trade never stop learning .I will ask an old mate who worked for westly for over 40 years .

[JohnfromUK]

This https://www.theexplora.com/the-hammer-guns-of-westley-richards/

enlightens a bit about the 'crab joint'.  It is Westley Richards own 'house magazine'.

[Gunman]

My ex Westley friend said he had heard the term before but was he though it an Americanism not used to his knowledge in the factory by any of the gunmen in his time there .

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Gunman said:

My ex Westley friend said he had heard the term before but was he though it an Americanism not used to his knowledge in the factory by any of the gunmen in his time there .

I suspect that is probably quite right; the majority of mentions of 'crab joint" I have seen are in American auction/dealer site listings, but it is now used by the UK auction houses (who of course have a significant American clientèle).  It seems to be a Westley Richards 'speciality', as other 'wood bar/bar in wood' guns don't have the same crustacean like design for the wood overlap from the forend over the join/hinge area.

[JJsDad]

18 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have heard both used

There is no right or wrong way to describe a gun stocked in this manner. As is the case with a number of names in gunmaking/gunmakers terminology; what the Birmingham trade called a feature or job was slightly different to that used by their opposite number in the London trade. Diggory Hadoke`s excellent book `Hammer Guns in theory and practice` acknowledges both forms of terminolgy and  swaps around between `bar in wood` and `wood bar` throughout the chapters.

The term `crab joint` was associated with early Westley Richards bar in wood hammer guns where the wood of the stock extended fully to the forward end of the bar (ie: the knuckle). In turn the wood of the fore-end extended rearward to cover the rear of the fore-end iron. The ensuing joint between the two was referred to as a `crab joint`. While a bar in wood gun could feature a crab joint it is not used on all bar in wood guns.

[JJsDad]

17 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

enlightens a bit about the 'crab joint'.  It is Westley Richards own 'house magazine'.

Thanks John. Looks like you were re-searching while I was typing. Diggory Hadoke`s article  in your link puts it somewhat more elequently than my description.

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

While a bar in wood gun could feature a crab joint it is not used on all bar in wood guns.

I think that type of 'crab' joint is a mainly Westley Richards feature.  This is the joint area of my Powell from 1871.

[JJsDad]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think that type of 'crab' joint is a mainly Westley Richards feature

I agree. The wood of your delightful Powell does not fully extend to cover cover the bar of the action and in turn the fore-end wood does not fully encase the fore-end iron. So the term `crab joint` does not apply. While a credit to the skills of the stocker who produced bar in wood guns with the slightly odd feature of a `crab-joint` I dont think it added anything to the looks of the gun and your Powell appears more modern and pleasing on the eye.

Edited September 26, 2019 by JJsDad

[Gunman]

Whilst I agree that a lot of "knowleedge"is obtained from books sometimes written by people outside , or on the fringes of the  trade , some getting  getting there information from previous authors . Some people get their knowledge from spending their working lives in the trade .Actually building and repairing guns learning their craft from men who have in turn learnt theirs from men before them .

A good example of this would be the famous Scales gun .In the 1920's  Frederick Scales one of Purdey's  leading men built himself a gun supposedly based on a Holland and Holland action . This was written about by a couple of "gun writers" and was catalogued by action houses as such . It was only in recent years that the gun passed through the hands of an obscure gunsmith who taking one look at the gun threw this "history"of the guns origin  into doubt that   was subsequently proved to be true . 

Trems in all walks of life  have been coined that have passed into common usage .This does not mean they are always correct .

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Gunman