Working pointers

[B725]

I have been watching working pointers on YouTube and I find it fascinating but I have never seen a well trained pointer at all.well not one that will point and hold,flush when asked then wait for the retrieve. One day I will have to find someone with one so I can just go out and watch. I presume some of you out there have them.

[panoma1]

2 minutes ago, B725 said:

I have been watching working pointers on YouTube and I find it fascinating but I have never seen a well trained pointer at all.well not one that will point and hold,flush when asked then wait for the retrieve. One day I will have to find someone with one so I can just go out and watch. I presume some of you out there have them.

I have walked up grouse in Scotland, over pointers, watch them hunt, scent birds, point, creep forward, hold........then flush on command...very exciting!

[B725]

I would imagine it is even though I wouldn't anything other than a Springer I still am amazed by them even if I've only seen them on a screen.

[Walker570]

I used to have a day each year up on Lowther over English Pointers. It was not stupid expensive for three guns alternating on a point and we almost always got our five brace for the day.

Superb country and the Grouse Keeper Tony, was a mine of information and made the day very enjoyable.  They also used to do some driven partridge days as well.  Certainly worth make a phone call.    My old legs are not what they where so just memories now.

[Lloyd90]

I’ve been watching a great show on Amazon Prime called “The Flush” ... great watching and their dogs are good pointers but as soon as they flush they’re chasing the bird down the field. 
 

I spoke to lots of Americans and even a lot of Irish lads who rough shoot / upland hunt (it’s much more common than driven shooting) and they all loved dogs that run in on the flush, they were of the opinion that the dog then gets to the bird faster and then they don’t lose as many birds / runners. 
 

Personally I just think it’s a bit of an excuse for half trained dogs. 

Then again considering the amount of work and effort I have put into my dog, I can see a lot of people would just be happy with a dog that flushed birds in range of shot more often than not, allows them to bag a few birds and drags it back to them or close enough. 

[Mickeydredd]

I used to fly a female goshawk over my GSPs who never chased after the flush....they would have had a face full of goshawk if they had tried 😉

[Walker570]

43 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I’ve been watching a great show on Amazon Prime called “The Flush” ... great watching and their dogs are good pointers but as soon as they flush they’re chasing the bird down the field. 
 

I spoke to lots of Americans and even a lot of Irish lads who rough shoot / upland hunt (it’s much more common than driven shooting) and they all loved dogs that run in on the flush, they were of the opinion that the dog then gets to the bird faster and then they don’t lose as many birds / runners. 
 

Personally I just think it’s a bit of an excuse for half trained dogs. 

Then again considering the amount of work and effort I have put into my dog, I can see a lot of people would just be happy with a dog that flushed birds in range of shot more often than not, allows them to bag a few birds and drags it back to them or close enough. 

Problem with that is the dog could very easily get a dose of #6s from the second shot. In my view essential a dog stays put. On my days we always had at least two picking up dogs, spaniels or labs.   I always had my viszlas and my GSP stay put for that reason.

[Lloyd90]

24 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Problem with that is the dog could very easily get a dose of #6s from the second shot. In my view essential a dog stays put. On my days we always had at least two picking up dogs, spaniels or labs.   I always had my viszlas and my GSP stay put for that reason.

Exactly what I’ve always thought mate 👍🏻 Even worse when shooting at ground game. 

[B725]

Just watched the shooting show from 2014 grouse shooting in Scotland, well and trained dogs steady to flush it was nice to watch.

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, B725 said:

Just watched the shooting show from 2014 grouse shooting in Scotland, well and trained dogs steady to flush it was nice to watch.

I do always wonder with pointers, how many people have the land to actually work them properly. 

I have seen all sort in the beating line, often people will just bring along any old dog, I saw one shoot where beaters with a dog would get extra pay, and the mix of dogs was a right laugh.

 

However, I can't help but feel using a pointer in the beating line just ruins what it's for. The dog stops pointing when it gets fed up of other dogs running in and flushing their birds. 

[B725]

I agree with you Lloyd with my last dog when he was still young he would work nicely with the other spaniels, but one day a guy turned up with two pointers and he ended up pulling away 70 odd yards or more with them. When they didn't come he was fine, I spoke to the guy who helped me train my dog and he said just put yours on the lead as he wanted to be with them and the pointers where not suited to the beating line. 

[Walker570]

Have run both viszlas and a GSP in the beating line on a walk and stand and also as a beater on a full driven day.  I have never had any problems with my dogs getting fed up of other dogs busting birds for them. In fact my GSP would work as a team with my Lab, the GSP would come on point and the lab knew there was work to do and would flush. They Loved it and never got jealous.  If one dog came on point in the beating line I had already told other beaters to just walk through and flush the bird. My dogs would imediately go look for another totally unfazed, so i suppose it down to training again.

[B725]

And that's the crux of the matter the two pointers that my springer wanted to be with didn't point they just bogged off, as you said all down to training or rather the lack of it. 

[Lloyd90]

20 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Have run both viszlas and a GSP in the beating line on a walk and stand and also as a beater on a full driven day.  I have never had any problems with my dogs getting fed up of other dogs busting birds for them. In fact my GSP would work as a team with my Lab, the GSP would come on point and the lab knew there was work to do and would flush. They Loved it and never got jealous.  If one dog came on point in the beating line I had already told other beaters to just walk through and flush the bird. My dogs would imediately go look for another totally unfazed, so i suppose it down to training again.

 

Interesting, normally the flush after the point would be the reward, I have definitely heard of pointers stopping the point because they got fed up of having their reward stolen. 

 

I must say I am really enjoying watching this show the flush. Although they are not steady to the shot and fall, they're still some great dogs working. They are using all sorts, brittanys, GSP, GWP, English pointers and setters. 

[Raja Clavata]

On 05/01/2020 at 21:35, Walker570 said:

Have run both viszlas and a GSP in the beating line on a walk and stand and also as a beater on a full driven day.  I have never had any problems with my dogs getting fed up of other dogs busting birds for them. In fact my GSP would work as a team with my Lab, the GSP would come on point and the lab knew there was work to do and would flush. They Loved it and never got jealous.  If one dog came on point in the beating line I had already told other beaters to just walk through and flush the bird. My dogs would imediately go look for another totally unfazed, so i suppose it down to training again.

I've only worked our GSP on a handful of shoots on our pheasant syndicate but found him to have a much sharper nose than the spaniels or labs. The issue we had in dense cover was that he'd hold the point but the spaniels and labs would be long gone.

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I've only worked our GSP on a handful of shoots on our pheasant syndicate but found him to have a much sharper nose than the spaniels or labs. The issue we had in dense cover was that he'd hold the point but the spaniels and labs would be long gone.

Absolutely, but if you are a regular member of a beating team then just tell the other beaters to walk through and flush the point as they go.   I would get a shout down the line," Your dogs on point Nev ! " and I would just tell them to walk it out and my dog would set off again looking/smelling for another. The good bit was that if one of them got a bit far infront, they would lock on point until we reached them and not roar about the covert flushing everything in sight.  Had two GSPs picking up behind me today and they where impressive, hardly spoken to.

[Raja Clavata]

18 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Absolutely, but if you are a regular member of a beating team then just tell the other beaters to walk through and flush the point as they go.   I would get a shout down the line," Your dogs on point Nev ! " and I would just tell them to walk it out and my dog would set off again looking/smelling for another. The good bit was that if one of them got a bit far infront, they would lock on point until we reached them and not roar about the covert flushing everything in sight.  Had two GSPs picking up behind me today and they where impressive, hardly spoken to.

Makes sense. I was referring to really dense stuff that people are not able to walk through.

When dogs are working well it really is a sight to behold 👍

[Rob85]

I love pointers....I'll probably never own one or at least not for a long time but my late cocker spaniel while not being the best trained dog in the world was still better than the likes of this which sadly seems to be the norm on American youtube channels. Regarding running in etc...I don't think these guys dogs should be in the field at all. To me they are a menace bordering on dangerous!

[hawkeye]

There's nothing like a well trained dog,🐕

and that is nothing like a well trained dog

[Rob85]

I was going to comment something like that on the comment stream under the video but I knew I would probably get set upon by people thinking it's better the dog runs in so they don't lose pricked birds (incidentally one of the shots the guy takes I'm convinced just about missed the dog as it jumped up to peg the bird) but surely as an HPR breed the standard of training that I've been told is steady to flush...drop to flush.. mark the fall after the shot and then retrieve. No point talking about runners as the dog should be able to follow the fresh scent of the pricked bird to retrieve it. Maybe I'm completely wrong though?

[Walker570]

Bird shooting in the States is a different world. Most of those pheasants were only released into that cover half an hour before the guns arrived !!!   Had a couple of friends from the States shoot here with me and they were absolutely gob smacked at how SAFE we were in our gun handling and shooting, once they got over the fact nobody was wearing flame orange clothing.

 

[Mickeydredd]

5 hours ago, hawkeye said:

There's nothing like a well trained dog,🐕

and that is nothing like a well trained dog

In fairness (to the dog), it is only 9 months old and still has a great deal to learn, as well as mature.  The guy's "training" methods aren't particularly well managed for such a young dog.  He shouldn't even be shooting over it at that age.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Mickeydredd

[Rob85]

7 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Bird shooting in the States is a different world. Most of those pheasants were only released into that cover half an hour before the guns arrived !!!   Had a couple of friends from the States shoot here with me and they were absolutely gob smacked at how SAFE we were in our gun handling and shooting, once they got over the fact nobody was wearing flame orange clothing.

 

Having to wear that flame orange clothing says it all really. I watched another video earlier and the first flush the guy shot it 5 yards off the end of his barrel and practically blew the bird in half 

check it out and out of interest how long would these guys last turning up to a walked up shoot in England with their gear before they got told to leave?

 

Wee edit.... hope I haven't hijacked this thread!!

Edited January 10, 2020 by Rob85
A quick apology incase if hijacked the thread

[Lloyd90]

I think that’s why so many Americans hunt over pointers, setters and HPR’s. 
 

They only need to do enough to get the dog picking up birds, and pointing without flushing before they catch up. If they can do that they know they will at least get a shot at some birds and if the dog picks it up any old way they will often bag it. 
 

For many that would be a successful hunt.
 

There are plenty of wild and untrained dogs in the U.K. where their owners profess what great hunters they are as they’re 200 yards ahead flushing birds on the next drive 🤣.

 

[Dirty Harry]

I shoot over my German Wirehaired Pointers. 
This season I’ve shot grouse, pheasant, partridge, ducks, snipe, woodcock, rabbits, foxes and deer over them. 
He runs in sometimes but I shoot on my own ground and to be honest I don’t care if he does as long as he makes the retrieve. 
I think a lot of people get HPRs and don’t have the right ground to work them so just use them as a beating dog and that really isn’t what they are bred for.