Perazzishot Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 hour ago, dipper said: Before we had plastic there were a lot of old guns that had been lapped out so in fact over bored.In America in the 20s the super Foxes were over bored to 750 some more and they shot very tight patterns.All with felt wads. At close range! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipper Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 The Super Fox HE was a long range duck gun.When they come up for sale they bring big money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) This where this site gets contrary how can any shotgun influence range is what I have been told time and time again on here and here you are telling me we had a long range shotgun in the 1920's 🙄🤔 Edited February 8, 2020 by Perazzishot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipper Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 Google it on the fox forum it shows patterns .More than you could do.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltings Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) if you can pick your felt wad intact within twenty yrds as many do if you care to look the pattern blown if after a shot cant see for confetti a good pattern have loaded shop bought hard as hell fibre wads and home made flexcell confetti similar to old fashioned ely fibre wads if the wad stays intact being lighter and solid it will blow through the shot giving an inconsistent pattern true felt wads are still wanted / pinned for in muzzle loading rather than fiber wads have a look on you tube re wad types I have reloaded just about all shot types toxic and non toxic all sizes inc plas wads and shop bought fibre the best patterns have been flexcell home made confetti as disintegrates straight away leaving the shot pattern intact old muzzle loading wildfowlers used a card and a mix of tallow and beeswax +a card as a wad + shot and a card on top for long range shooting fibre wads are not the same as thirty years ago cheap **** components by another name fibre not felt pattern plates don't lie home loading is an eye opener when you get into it a chronograph makes liars out of suppliers don't believe everything in print its sales blurb Edited February 9, 2020 by Saltings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 18 hours ago, Perazzishot said: Potentially in an over bored gun I would imagine that escaping gasses going past the wad before the seal is made in the forcing cones could disrupt pattern. It could also be figured on the same principal on a heavy load especially that the wad could be initially moving faster than the payload it is pushing out, and again in an over bored gun push into the botton of of the pay load causing disruption to the pattern. was this the reason plastic wads were developed with petals? Or fibre wads with a plastic disc perform better! 18 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: Any gasses going past the wad before the seal is made in the forcing cone could only disrupt the pattern by balling, that is when lead pellets fuse together due to the escaping gasses being very hot. . Having experienced it, had the results witnessed and photographed, described it on here and not to mention Gough Thomas writing about it, I can do no other than agree with both of the above. The balling may not be absolute and when it is partial it is termed 'crypto balling'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 2 hours ago, wymberley said: Having experienced it, had the results witnessed and photographed, described it on here and not to mention Gough Thomas writing about it, I can do no other than agree with both of the above. The balling may not be absolute and when it is partial it is termed 'crypto balling'. I could see the pressures clumping poorly lubricated shot together but heat in that split second, not a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, Perazzishot said: Physics say the wad is moving before the pellets, if the pellets can then disperse sideways in an open bore then physics says that can happen. Like a fast car or train punching through the air the air is forced sideways, not pushed in front but that is very Basic physics! actually you also agree hot gasses mixing with shot especially soft game shot can cause some fusion disrupting the pattern! Perazzishot, you have lost me are you saying that the Wad is travelling faster than the shot within the barrel or after exiting the muzzle? Either way where has this additional energy come from that has accelerated the wad but not the shot? Edited February 9, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 5 hours ago, sitsinhedges said: I could see the pressures clumping poorly lubricated shot together but heat in that split second, not a chance. Occurs they say due to the pressure and heat and a process known as cold welding. May be one of the potential benefits of copper or nickel coating shot is to reduce the likelihood of balling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 Saying initially the wad will be moving in the cartridge 1st and quicker than the shot in front of it, that is the mass pushing out the payload! As it enters the chamber then barrels then pellets will and can be pushed sideways, and also gasses forced past both wad and shot causing issues with the pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 I did some patterning with an 18.4 bore with 5/8ths and 18.6 with 1/2 choke. The 18.6 threw the better, more even and dense pattern … fibre wad HPE 34g 4's with fibre wad. I think the phenomena exists … but best to test what you have before writing a wider bore off …. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 Does not the pressure created on ignition, set back the payload (shot charge) and compress and expand the wad inside the case? The gasses created push the load out of the cartridge case, into the bore via the forcing cone......further expanding the wad, bridging the forcing cone and in sequence, filling the bore? I think there is a slight risk of some gasses escaping between when the charge leaves the cartridge case and when it reaches the bore proper? But surely that can happen with plastic or any other wad too? Especially if using a short cartridge in a long chambered gun!....but once the wad and the payload are in the bore proper they cannot expand sideways! The pressure created by the gasses behind the wad and the weight of the shot charge in front of the wad..........would compress the wad to the size of the bore! Once exiting the bore the light fibre wad would soon be left behind.............because the shot load is heavier! If this is incorrect ballistically/scientifically/physically...... please correct me ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 32 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: I did some patterning with an 18.4 bore with 5/8ths and 18.6 with 1/2 choke. The 18.6 threw the better, more even and dense pattern … fibre wad HPE 34g 4's with fibre wad. I think the phenomena exists … but best to test what you have before writing a wider bore off …. Try at 70yds and the 18.4 HPE through 5/8ths still has a pattern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 2 hours ago, panoma1 said: Does not the pressure created on ignition, set back the payload (shot charge) and compress and expand the wad inside the case? The gasses created push the load out of the cartridge case, into the bore via the forcing cone......further expanding the wad, bridging the forcing cone and in sequence, filling the bore? I think there is a slight risk of some gasses escaping between when the charge leaves the cartridge case and when it reaches the bore proper? But surely that can happen with plastic or any other wad too? Especially if using a short cartridge in a long chambered gun!....but once the wad and the payload are in the bore proper they cannot expand sideways! The pressure created by the gasses behind the wad and the weight of the shot charge in front of the wad..........would compress the wad to the size of the bore! Once exiting the bore the light fibre wad would soon be left behind.............because the shot load is heavier! If this is incorrect ballistically/scientifically/physically...... please correct me ! Yes correct. But the longer it takes to make that seal in the barrel the more likely of damage to the shot/pattern. Once it leaves the barrel the wads will not interfere with pattern as you rightly state the payload/shot in now moving faster than the wad. Gas escaping past up to 30% is accepted as being correct on over bored guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Gas escaping past up to 30% is accepted as being correct on over bored guns. I would be most grateful if you would point me towards the scientific data from which you quote this figure? Does this accepted percentage refer to every barrel bore that measures over nominal?.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 It was research done involving Nigel Teague. (Teague Chokes) Who wanted to ensure as we switched over to fibre we developed the best system using fibre wads! He has with his data worked closely with Browning/Miroku, Dave Carrie and various cartridge manufacturers to make it work and help the fibre sceptics convert for the good of our sport! A scientific paper was not produced just expert analysis and opinion! I'm sure if you are willing to fund a scientific trial experiment you could get someone to carry it out! However I would doubt you would get a better shotgun ballistics expert than Nigel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Perazzishot said: Try at 70yds and the 18.4 HPE through 5/8ths still has a pattern So has the 18.6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Perazzishot said: It was research done involving Nigel Teague. (Teague Chokes) Who wanted to ensure as we switched over to fibre we developed the best system using fibre wads! He has with his data worked closely with Browning/Miroku, Dave Carrie and various cartridge manufacturers to make it work and help the fibre sceptics convert for the good of our sport! A scientific paper was not produced just expert analysis and opinion! I'm sure if you are willing to fund a scientific trial experiment you could get someone to carry it out! However I would doubt you would get a better shotgun ballistics expert than Nigel. ? 10 hours ago, Perazzishot said: Try at 70yds and the 18.4 HPE through 5/8ths still has a pattern So has a string vest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Smokersmith said: So has the 18.6 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, wymberley said: It was research done involving Nigel Teague. (Teague Chokes) Who wanted to ensure as we switched over to fibre we developed the best system using fibre wads! He has with his data worked closely with Browning/Miroku, Dave Carrie and various cartridge manufacturers to make it work and help the fibre sceptics convert for the good of our sport! A scientific paper was not produced just expert analysis and opinion! I'm sure if you are willing to fund a scientific trial experiment you could get someone to carry it out! However I would doubt you would get a better shotgun ballistics expert than Nigel. Still lots of game and clay shots who refuse to use fibre wads, I was also before this season, what I have killed and seen killed this season has convinced me and many others with the right equipment fibre is as good as plastic! I know 3 shoots banning plas wads next year on the back of what they have seen killed this year with the right fibre set up! Can you please (as you trying to do) not turn this into a personal thread again! We all enjoy different types of shooting and division amongst ourselves does not help us! Thank You. Edited February 10, 2020 by Perazzishot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 Back in the day, plastic came in and made such a difference to how cartridges shoot. I've the 8 bore reloading books that were published by Douglas McDougal at the time, and his data showed a huge improvements in 8 bore patterns, and 12g stuff also improved. Why … it was the reduced deformation of pellets that made them fly truer and increase density, plus better gas sealing resulting in higher velocities. What's changed …. better powders now can accelerate the shot smoother, and the shot quality of something like the Hull HPE will be harder and more round which will also reduce flyers. Reducing choke constriction in these bigger shot sizes also helps. A personal view is that the number of pellets needed to cause lethality is overstated given the higher energies carried by today's cartridges … I reckon most game hit by 3 or 4 3.25 mm from at Hull HPE at 70 yards will be dead on hitting the deck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Perazzishot said: Still lots of game and clay shots who refuse to use fibre wads, I was also before this season, what I have killed and seen killed this season has convinced me and many others with the right equipment fibre is as good as plastic! I know 3 shoots banning plas wads next year on the back of what they have seen killed this year with the right fibre set up! Can you please (as you trying to do) not turn this into a personal thread again! We all enjoy different types of shooting and division amongst ourselves does not help us! Thank You. Funny isn't it! A few posts back when I agree with you, not a murmer. But now I have the temerity to disagree with something you say, you now say that I'm getting personal. Come on, everyone knows that that argument thrown into a debate is actually an admission that a point raised has been defeated. I obviously have no idea of who, or how many, your "others" are that have just twigged this season regarding the efficiency of fibre wads, but it's my opinion (nothing personal) that there are many, many more out there that have known this for some considerable time. I have no doubt that Nigel Teague's investigation is valid and will remain so, but with hindsight the way things have started to go just recently, it may just pay to put any future effort into further research into fibre (or similar of whatever eco-friendly material) cup wads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 51 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: Back in the day, plastic came in and made such a difference to how cartridges shoot. I've the 8 bore reloading books that were published by Douglas McDougal at the time, and his data showed a huge improvements in 8 bore patterns, and 12g stuff also improved. Why … it was the reduced deformation of pellets that made them fly truer and increase density, plus better gas sealing resulting in higher velocities. What's changed …. better powders now can accelerate the shot smoother, and the shot quality of something like the Hull HPE will be harder and more round which will also reduce flyers. Reducing choke constriction in these bigger shot sizes also helps. A personal view is that the number of pellets needed to cause lethality is overstated given the higher energies carried by today's cartridges … I reckon most game hit by 3 or 4 3.25 mm from at Hull HPE at 70 yards will be dead on hitting the deck. Have to say, not at all too sure about the first part of the quoted final bullet point, but agree absolutely with the last bit. In view of the trials and subsequent investigations carried out both here in the UK and the USA - a combination of both studies has been accepted by BASC - and the fact that your earlier unquoted points have reduced the problem of aquiring the necessary pattern density, how many pellet strikes on average do you think are necessary to achieve the necessary 3 or 4 on every shot as far as would be deemed a reasonable expectation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, wymberley said: Funny isn't it! A few posts back when I agree with you, not a murmer. But now I have the temerity to disagree with something you say, you now say that I'm getting personal. Come on, everyone knows that that argument thrown into a debate is actually an admission that a point raised has been defeated. I obviously have no idea of who, or how many, your "others" are that have just twigged this season regarding the efficiency of fibre wads, but it's my opinion (nothing personal) that there are many, many more out there that have known this for some considerable time. I have no doubt that Nigel Teague's investigation is valid and will remain so, but with hindsight the way things have started to go just recently, it may just pay to put any future effort into further research into fibre (or similar of whatever eco-friendly material) cup wads. Apologies I had thought I gave you the thumbs up when you agreed. And again we agree that fibre/felt/wool/biodegradable is the way we have to go. As I said I know people who refuse to shoot at some fibre only estates. We took one of those with us this season (he is an RC40 man) set him up with HPE 34/4 and he quaffed at us. After the 1st drive although not convinced he admitted that he was impressed! By the end of day he was booking any available pegs for next season on an estate he had avoided for over a decade due to the fibre only policy! His own admission was that fibre have come a long way since he last used them. He only went because of what he was seeing our team doing with them, he is also enquiringly for new 18.4 barrels for his Berreta. Little things like this quickly gather momentum especially when the right (factory made) cartridges are available. I was given some new Cheddite 35/4 Fibbrio to try towards the end of the season and I must say they were equally as impressive if not slightly better than the HPEs. Long may the manufacturers continue to develop them further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, wymberley said: Funny isn't it! A few posts back when I agree with you, not a murmer. But now I have the temerity to disagree with something you say, you now say that I'm getting personal. Come on, everyone knows that that argument thrown into a debate is actually an admission that a point raised has been defeated. I obviously have no idea of who, or how many, your "others" are that have just twigged this season regarding the efficiency of fibre wads, but it's my opinion (nothing personal) that there are many, many more out there that have known this for some considerable time. I have no doubt that Nigel Teague's investigation is valid and will remain so, but with hindsight the way things have started to go just recently, it may just pay to put any future effort into further research into fibre (or similar of whatever eco-friendly material) cup wads Sorry this was meant to quote Smokersmiths post. Back in the day, plastic came in and made such a difference to how cartridges shoot. I've the 8 bore reloading books that were published by Douglas McDougal at the time, and his data showed a huge improvements in 8 bore patterns, and 12g stuff also improved. Why … it was the reduced deformation of pellets that made them fly truer and increase density, plus better gas sealing resulting in higher velocities. What's changed …. better powders now can accelerate the shot smoother, and the shot quality of something like the Hull HPE will be harder and more round which will also reduce flyers. Reducing choke constriction in these bigger shot sizes also helps. A personal view is that the number of pellets needed to cause lethality is overstated given the higher energies carried by today's cartridges … I reckon most game hit by 3 or 4 3.25 mm from at Hull HPE at 70 yards will be dead on hitting the deck. Quote This is exactly what we have found this season, far more dead in the air head back kills than ever before! Not only that but the very fast bleed out rate where strike has been to lesser organs such as liver, kidney gizzard, where the bird continues flyingg/gliding after taking pellets to see it collapse out the sky 50 or so yards later. Speak to most pickers up and these birds are dead, runners tend only to be winged birds nowadays not injured! Im sure Dave from Kelton can add to this. Edited February 10, 2020 by Perazzishot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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