Lead ban & BASC

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, 8 shot said:

So how will replacing lead with steel in the ground help. I understand birds picking it up, but a belly full of steel can't be healthy either, I always thought rust was toxic to. Just playing devils advocate here.

We have used Lead for years, its gone in nearly every other area of our lives paint petrol water mains inshore fishing weights. We are about the last significant user of lead in the world today.

You can not dress it up anyway to make it look good. BASC did a fantastic job of defending it over the past few years. But we have further complications ongoing EHCA etc.

 We can not defend it,  its out side eroding leaching through the soil and entering the watercourses.  This is why even in artesian wells Lead levels can be high, its just there in the environment via old pipes old paint and of course lead shot, which we are constantly topping up tons and tons a season. Lead shot from 100 years ago and ditto lead pipe from 100 years ago still in the ground is still there still contributing its effects.

  We are sowing the seeds now the people long after we have died will be reaping. We wont care we wont be here. But future generations are going to hate us, there has to be an end to this at some point in time.

Leaving aside TSS Bismuth etc just sticking to steel, it still works, its not lead but its got good properties that lead does not have like it patterns Well. And despite the periodic table it is surprisingly effective it really is. and in the field, its going to do the job just fine.

  We chose its not law and thanks to this suggestion is unlikeley to become law for at least five years, something whicjh WJ hate and no doubt will try and over throw.  Meantime i think we should try and folow advice where we practicaly can. WE know its coming, lets start here have it done. move on it works it really does. Hanging on to Lead is just not right its toxic its poison effects others . We have no right to keep poluting the environment like this any more. The sport goes on just with a different shot type thats all no big deal.

Here is a usa Lead advice film from the states. It outlines its impact on kids women in childbirth etc. and ok its usa but we are all guilty. we need to stop throwing it about ASAP.

 

[andrewluke]

11 hours ago, lancer425 said:

It is still Lead on the ground or in the vmeat, we need to move away from it. Just because its what we always did and what we liked to do, its also effecting others and poisoning others. If not right now in years to come. There is no safe limit for lead in humans, its all bad. Other creatures are the same. its not a nice material to be around if its familiar to us or not. It has to go if we use this time to prepare it will be a smooth trouble free transition. .

 

11 hours ago, lancer425 said:

No i have not stopped using it entirely i doubt many have at this moment in time . But i am trying to organise a practical move away from lead, and i am not wasting this transition period. How about you. ?

as you are still using lead then you need to stop preaching to others about using steel and how toxic lead is and that it should be banned,

HYPOCRITE!, or perhaps you are using special non toxic lead!

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

 

as you are still using lead then you need to stop preaching to others about using steel and how toxic lead is and that it should be banned,

HYPOCRITE!, or perhaps you are using special non toxic lead!

Its as toxic as any other but not as toxic as you. I think you need to calm down a little. I stand by what i say, we need to move away from Lead. We have 5 years to do this. and many of us are trying our best yo use the time to good effect. How about you. ?

[David BASC]

andrewluke, I do not think you are gaining anything by calling people a hypocrite, just because some are engaging in the process does not make them a bad person, how would you or others like it if those that are clinging onto lead until the last possible moment and totally ignoring the alternatives  were labelled as a luddite?

Things have changed significantly over the last few months  not least because of ECHA and consequently we are going through a process of change that will be driven by international legislation, as well as changes in domestic values and  we need to do all we can to take control of this and show that shooting is sustainable.

[andrewluke]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Its as toxic as any other but not as toxic as you. I think you need to calm down a little. I stand by what i say, we need to move away from Lead. We have 5 years to do this. and many of us are trying our best yo use the time to good effect. How about you. ?

all through these topics you are preaching to others about how they need to stop using lead because it's toxic but you are not prepared to stop using it youself,you hypocrite,i dont use lead or even steel before you go off on one

now keep calm,there's no need to get angry because you are fighting a losing battle!

[andrewluke]

1 minute ago, David BASC said:

andrewluke, I do not think you are gaining anything by calling people a hypocrite, just because some are engaging in the process does not make them a bad person, how would you or others like it if those that are clinging onto lead until the last possible moment and totally ignoring the alternatives  were labelled as a luddite?

Things have changed significantly over the last few months  not least because of ECHA and consequently we are going through a process of change that will be driven by international legislation, as well as changes in domestic values and  we need to do all we can to take control of this and show that shooting is sustainable.

of course he's a hypocrite,he's telling others that lead is toxic and it needs to be banned because it's poisoning wildlife now but is still using lead himself ,DavidBASC have you actually read what lancer425 has been posting??,but there again you are both singing from the same hymn sheet,

 

lancer425  do as i say not as i do

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

of course he's a hypocrite,he's telling others that lead is toxic and it needs to be banned because it's poisoning wildlife now but is still using lead himself ,DavidBASC have you actually read what lancer425 has been posting??,but there again you are both singing from the same hymn sheet,

 

lancer425  do as i say not as i do

Go and calm down, you have some axe to grind with me that clear. But its not helping you with your problem behaving in such a way.

[wymberley]

Not too long ago our war cry was "no evidence no change" in our defence of lead shot. As far as I'm aware, no shooter was against this. Now it seems that we're all sort of morally guilty of a sort of moral corporate manslaughter. It seems, we are told, that we are the greatest user of lead in the UK. I simply don't know. But perhaps out of interest someone who does can clarify this point:

• Lead is one of the most environmentally-friendly materials used in the construction industry
• Lead sheet is produced from 100% recycled lead also recycled lead has a low carbon footprint and a low energy consuming melting temperature
• The initial installation cost of lead is comparable to man-made flashings when the additional expense of adhesives and sealants are taken into account
• Lead is quick and easy to install in most weather conditions and requires no adhesive or other fixing materials
• Alternatives are very limited in the types of applications that they can be used for, and would not be suitable for more decorative flashings for which lead is renowned
• When bossed or dressed correctly lead has few laps or joints resulting in a high degree of weather tightness
• Lead lasts up to 100 years and when used for flashings will last three times longer than most man-made products there is little post-installation inspection or maintenance is required
• All lead sheet should be coated with patination oil after installation
• Calder 50year Warranty ( provided LSA guidelines are followed )
• Please refer to the Calder Training Module Ask a Question for a quick guide to selling lead.

        I'm having trouble now in deciding whether someone who relieves the church of its roof is our saviour or a criminal and particularly with all of that contaminated water running off into the water courses over the millenia.

•  

[8 shot]

13 minutes ago, wymberley said:

•  
• Lead lasts up to 100 years and when used for flashings will last three times longer than most man-made products

Not around my neck of the woods church roofs seems to get stripped every few years. The local metal thiefing community don't seem to worry about its toxicity to much .Agree with the run off though, mind you the residents of our churchyard don't seem to complain. Shouldn't laugh really 😉

[lancer425]

4 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Not too long ago our war cry was "no evidence no change" in our defence of lead shot. As far as I'm aware, no shooter was against this. Now it seems that we're all sort of morally guilty of a sort of moral corporate manslaughter. It seems, we are told, that we are the greatest user of lead in the UK. I simply don't know. But perhaps out of interest someone who does can clarify this point:

• Lead is one of the most environmentally-friendly materials used in the construction industry
• Lead sheet is produced from 100% recycled lead also recycled lead has a low carbon footprint and a low energy consuming melting temperature
• The initial installation cost of lead is comparable to man-made flashings when the additional expense of adhesives and sealants are taken into account
• Lead is quick and easy to install in most weather conditions and requires no adhesive or other fixing materials
• Alternatives are very limited in the types of applications that they can be used for, and would not be suitable for more decorative flashings for which lead is renowned
• When bossed or dressed correctly lead has few laps or joints resulting in a high degree of weather tightness
• Lead lasts up to 100 years and when used for flashings will last three times longer than most man-made products there is little post-installation inspection or maintenance is required
• All lead sheet should be coated with patination oil after installation
• Calder 50year Warranty ( provided LSA guidelines are followed )
• Please refer to the Calder Training Module Ask a Question for a quick guide to selling lead.

        I'm having trouble now in deciding whether someone who relieves the church of its roof is our saviour or a criminal and particularly with all of that contaminated water running off into the water courses.

•  

We can discuss the merits of lead until the cows come home, and defend it all we like. cry for evidence chant "no evidence no change" Whatever.

  Then is then, and now is now. And now we are faced with situations in Europe that are not good for our sport. I certainly do not have any idea what the out come of all this will ultimately be. But i believe the Orgs suggestion is a shrewd and valid one.   I am not 100% in agreement with it , but i can see why they suggested this now.

  The thing everyone is so emotional about. LEAD REPLACEMENT , is in the bigger scheme of things not a problem. Alternatives exist. But the inclusion of plaswads at this very moment in time is not so clear cut. But we can be as sure as we can be this issue will be addressed in due course, its already happening,

I think we need to get behind the orgs and their suggestion. Make any adjustments to our ammunition or arsenal we need to get the results we feel we need with one of the suitable alternatives.  Its not about giving in surrendering its about tactical withdrawal from Lead. We either do this now, and regroup. or ignore it completely and face a certain sudden rout once the Government implement change.

[David BASC]

Lead on a roof is hardly comparable to lead shot, same material yes but in a different form and in a totally different environment. Birds do not ingest lead flashing or lead pipes do they? 

Yes it was 'no evidence no change' but as I keep saying, things have changed and not least the very recent work delivered by ECHA, so please try to understand that the environment in which we operate is changing so we too must change, explained perhaps  more clearly here: in the FAQ's : https://basc.org.uk/lead/

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

We can discuss the merits of lead until the cows come home, and defend it all we like. cry for evidence chant "no evidence no change" Whatever.

  Then is then, and now is now. And now we are faced with situations in Europe that are not good for our sport. I certainly do not have any idea what the out come of all this will ultimately be. But i believe the Orgs suggestion is a shrewd and valid one.   I am not 100% in agreement with it , but i can see why they suggested this now.

  The thing everyone is so emotional about. LEAD REPLACEMENT , is in the bigger scheme of things not a problem. Alternatives exist. But the inclusion of plaswads at this very moment in time is not so clear cut. But we can be as sure as we can be this issue will be addressed in due course, its already happening,

I think we need to get behind the orgs and their suggestion. Make any adjustments to our ammunition or arsenal we need to get the results we feel we need with one of the suitable alternatives.  Its not about giving in surrendering its about tactical withdrawal from Lead. We either do this now, and regroup. or ignore it completely and face a certain sudden rout once the Government implement change.

Well, now we're getting somewhere.

You finally concede that lead does have some merits.

If you've got no idea about something, then it pays to make haste slowly until you find out and not jump in with both feet and blindfolded.

I don't want tactics, I want a considered strategy.

We do now face a certain rout simply because there was no strategy. The associations' failure was not to cater for any negotiations regarding any possible leeway by simply going for a blanket proposal. In effect we have stated right from the off what we are prepared to accept and consequently it will be nigh on impossible to retract from that. I can see the need for some restrictions because of the market place demands - I might be persuaded that further restrictions may be necessary - even a total ban - but not on the evidence currently placed before us.

Anyone seriously thinking that we are going to be able to negotiate in any meaningful manner should any science forthcoming in the 10 years or so before any final cut off point reveal that a total ban is not necessary is sadly deluded.

The die is cast.

[8 shot]

Is there anyway the mods can set up a for/against poll on here. I go on The Farming Forum from time to time and they manage to set up polls for such arguments. Everyone gets one vote each if they care to use it. Any comments? Might make things worse though.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Is there anyway the mods can set up a for/against poll on here. I go on The Farming Forum from time to time and they manage to set up polls for such arguments. Everyone gets one vote each if they care to use it. Any comments? Might make things worse though.

Might well do, to discuss things is good to just obstruct a discussion with the same point is not constructive.

[Scully]

20 hours ago, clangerman said:

your right that’s my point all i can do is suck it up i stopped funding basc for this very reason basc make decisions we have no say in and shooters would not have allowed this stupidity to take place 

Care to explain just how shooters would not have allowed this to happen? 

[clangerman]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

Care to explain just how shooters would not have allowed this to happen? 

mate shooters know what works best they are far to smart to ban lead and would not have jumped before being pushed I think the idea of having a vote on here is brilliant let’s have one on the ban to settle who’s right 

36 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Is there anyway the mods can set up a for/against poll on here. I go on The Farming Forum from time to time and they manage to set up polls for such arguments. Everyone gets one vote each if they care to use it. Any comments? Might make things worse though.

just like to say your idea is brilliant best idea i heard for ages top man let’s have one 

[Scully]

Just now, clangerman said:

mate shooters know what works best they are far to smart to ban lead and would not have jumped before being pushed I think the idea of having a vote on here is brilliant let’s have one on the ban to settle who’s right 

Good idea! You can start a poll on the forum, for a vote, it's dead easy and others have started them in the past.

If it results in shooters voting against a lead ban, I'd still be very interested in your explanation of how shooters will not allow a lead ban to happen. This should be good! 🙂

[andrewluke]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Well, now we're getting somewhere.

You finally concede that lead does have some merits.

If you've got no idea about something, then it pays to make haste slowly until you find out and not jump in with both feet and blindfolded.

I don't want tactics, I want a considered strategy.

We do now face a certain rout simply because there was no strategy. The associations' failure was not to cater for any negotiations regarding any possible leeway by simply going for a blanket proposal. In effect we have stated right from the off what we are prepared to accept and consequently it will be nigh on impossible to retract from that. I can see the need for some restrictions because of the market place demands - I might be persuaded that further restrictions may be necessary - even a total ban - but not on the evidence currently placed before us.

Anyone seriously thinking that we are going to be able to negotiate in any meaningful manner should any science forthcoming in the 10 years or so before any final cut off point reveal that a total ban is not necessary is sadly deluded.

The die is cast.

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good idea! You can start a poll on the forum, for a vote, it's dead easy and others have started them in the past.

If it results in shooters voting against a lead ban, I'd still be very interested in your explanation of how shooters will not allow a lead ban to happen. This should be good! 🙂

the steel does the job i use it but it’s slightly less range why would shooters use a lesser tool they know which is best when they use it so i’m sure they wouldn’t have banned it with a vote you might get a laugh at my expense that should please a few as i’m not to keen on humble pie 

[lancer425]

30 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Well, now we're getting somewhere.

 1.  You finally concede that lead does have some merits.

2.If you've got no idea about something, then it pays to make haste slowly until you find out and not jump in with both feet and blindfolded.

  3.  I don't want tactics, I want a considered strategy.

4. We do now face a certain rout simply because there was no strategy. The associations' failure was not to cater for any negotiations regarding any possible leeway by simply going for a blanket proposal. In effect we have stated right from the off what we are prepared to accept and consequently it will be nigh on impossible to retract from that. I can see the need for some restrictions because of the market place demands - I might be persuaded that further restrictions may be necessary - even a total ban - but not on the evidence currently placed before us.

 5.  Anyone seriously thinking that we are going to be able to negotiate in any meaningful manner should any science forthcoming in the 10 years or so before any final cut off point reveal that a total ban is not necessary is sadly deluded.

   6, The die is cast.

You are just picking parts  of a post, not looking it its whole context makes giving the direct answers so constantly demand of people on any subject  on these boards very difficult to answer . But hey ho.

1. Lead has  good ballistic properties ,  its easy to make cheap and it works its well known.

Lead has been the mainstay of ballistics forever. BUT as i originally stated we are not here  to discuss leads merits.

Lead is toxic. that is not a moot point.

2. is taken from my above post >>>>And now we are faced with situations in Europe that are not good for our sport. I certainly do not have any idea what the out come of all this will ultimately be. But i believe the Orgs suggestion is a shrewd and valid one.   I am not 100% in agreement with it , but i can see why they suggested this now. <<<< .you had the answer all the time.

3. if the orgs suggestion is good damage prevention  strategy  its all that and more. Its now unlikely but i suppose not impossible to rush through any Lead ban.  

4. we now face exactly the same challenges we did when the orgs suggested this. Nothing has changed we have five years where we can make a smooth transition from steel. and yet still get to fight any final details at the other end. what is not to like about this. its not got any down sides in this political climate we are securing time. that is a good thing.

5. in that case i am guilty. I think we have the same chance then as we ever had, and we got five years to get ready. how is that delusional.?

6. PAH!

[8 shot]

You can word poll how you want e.g. Should lead shot be prohibited from game going on sale for human consumption. Or own consumption. Maybe vermin or pest control. You choose 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, 8 shot said:

You can word poll how you want e.g. Should lead shot be prohibited from game going on sale for human consumption. Or own consumption. Maybe vermin or pest control. You choose 

There is a lot of variables to take into account, and you tend to end up with not having a polled variable that quite matches your views, so you go with the closest one. And this can lead to inaccurate conclusions. Just saying.

[clangerman]

3 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

There is a lot of variables to take into account, and you tend to end up with not having a polled variable that quite matches your views, so you go with the closest one. And this can lead to inaccurate conclusions. Just saying.

agree i think it should be a straight vote should we ban lead that way it solves all the issues of lead with no grey areas 

[andrewluke]

13 minutes ago, clangerman said:

agree i think it should be a straight vote should we ban lead that way it solves all the issues of lead with no grey areas 

too hard,some dont like/cant do straight yes/no answers

Edited March 19, 2020 by andrewluke

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, clangerman said:

the steel does the job i use it but it’s slightly less range why would shooters use a lesser tool they know which is best when they use it so i’m sure they wouldn’t have banned it with a vote you might get a laugh at my expense that should please a few as i’m not to keen on humble pie 

Then start a poll. I'm quite sure that given the vote most shooters would vote against the banning of lead; I know I would. I just want you to explain why, if shooters voted overwhelmingly against a lead shot ban, that would stop it happening, as you claim it would. You said shooters wouldn't let it happen, so please explain how they could stop it. 

3 minutes ago, clangerman said:

agree i think it should be a straight vote should we ban lead that way it solves all the issues of lead with no grey areas 

....and then what? Do you believe that will stop lead from being banned? Explain how.