Opening chokes

[wymberley]

46 minutes ago, Scully said:

There is such a load of twaddle out there regarding steel shot, and unfortunately much of it is deliberate in an effort to deceive. 

I think you can delete "steel". Now all the fuss has died down, the 'black art' rules again. What is, "velocity 1450"

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, Rob85 said:

Yea I had resorted to just rattling on ahead with my guns as they are, if I take the notion I might take them to hollow farm and get them done sometime, they quoted me the 30quid a barrel.

Only thing putting me off is the place can be very cliche-y with their customers and i wasn't too impressed when I went down in person to discuss steel shot with them and buy some cartridges. I asked for some standard steel to try through my gun after taking advice that my current chokes would be ok, only to be told by Gordon that they didn't have any standard steel and even with standard steel I would "split my barrels"(his words)... moving on I asked if he had any cheap guns in(I was pretty skint but wanted to see how this impending sales pitch went) that could shoot standard steel, oh of course he had... proceeding to bring out a Beretta and a Zoli, both over the 600quid mark with obvious surface rust on the barrels, but according to him they were worth it as they were 3inch chambered superior steel proofed to "future proof" myself.

I don't know whether he just wanted me to sod off as I wasn't interested in spending bigger money but I did leave with a bit of a sour taste after that.

No doubt I'll be back sometime as I've a pretty solid brass neck and it's my only local range to shoot clays on being only 4 miles away from me.

 

Sorry to hear Rob you had a bad experience I’ve bought a couple of guns of Gordon and he’s been pretty good to work with he actually sorted out the barrel threads on my 222 in which I bought the moderator of a dealer near downpatrick who told me the moderator would fit if I ordered of him when went to collect it didn’t he would not send moderator back so I drove up to Gordon and he put wee machine on barrel then and there couple turns it was sorted no problem Getting back to your original post as Scully points out standard steel will be ok for your Yeoman 

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

There is such a load of twaddle out there regarding steel shot, and unfortunately much of it is deliberate in an effort to deceive. 

Not half as much as Lead shot 

[Old farrier]

Much talk about opening choke and appreciate that much research has been done in the past boreing and regulating guns to throw specific patterns 

many good gunsmiths would know in a instant how much to take out of a gun barrel to get a specific pattern at the set distance 

now we are moving on and understand that steel throws different (tighter patterns) 

Can someone tell me how much a gun should be bored to throw the

equivalent patterns at the set distance with steel/biowads 

 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Much talk about opening choke and appreciate that much research has been done in the past boreing and regulating guns to throw specific patterns 

many good gunsmiths would know in a instant how much to take out of a gun barrel to get a specific pattern at the set distance 

now we are moving on and understand that steel throws different (tighter patterns) 

Can someone tell me how much a gun should be bored to throw the

equivalent patterns at the set distance with steel/biowads 

 

When faced with opening out a particular barrel to meet a specific level of choke, I don't know of any 'smith that can say off the cuff that 0.019" has to come off, you can come in and collect the gun tomorrow.

Re the last point; yes. of course they can, but only after the job has been done which probably involves more time at a pattern plate than it does with the tools.

[Old farrier]

19 minutes ago, wymberley said:

When faced with opening out a particular barrel to meet a specific level of choke, I don't know of any 'smith that can say off the cuff that 0.019" has to come off, you can come in and collect the gun tomorrow.

Re the last point; yes. of course they can, but only after the job has been done which probably involves more time at a pattern plate than it does with the tools.

So opening choke for steel is in reality a minefield and a lot of unproven theory along with constantly changing development of the bio wad cartridges 

iv been advised that my gun currently full and extra full is to tight to shoot steer through safely 

so I would have the choke taken out and would like it to throw a full choke pattern equivalent to the one I get with lead 

I can only see that this is impossible to achieve without test firing and the risk of damage if not enough is removed and if to much is removed it’s not going to be throwing a full pattern 

there should be a mathematical equation for the amount that needs to be removed (somewhere)

 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

So opening choke for steel is in reality a minefield and a lot of unproven theory along with constantly changing development of the bio wad cartridges 

iv been advised that my gun currently full and extra full is to tight to shoot steer through safely 

so I would have the choke taken out and would like it to throw a full choke pattern equivalent to the one I get with lead 

I can only see that this is impossible to achieve without test firing and the risk of damage if not enough is removed and if to much is removed it’s not going to be throwing a full pattern 

there should be a mathematical equation for the amount that needs to be removed (somewhere)

 

Nailed it. Much of the performance characteristics of shotguns are known and based of empirical information and are precise. Unfortunately, these by necessity are based on averages. This means that not all are so (known). Couple that with modern technology which reflects that not everything that we've believed to be the case is correct. This applies in particular to choke and patterns. Consequently, any individual barrel must be treated in its own right. The smart move is to accept a satisfactory performance level before you get into the area of the law of diminishing return. Doing so gives some leeway. The main difference between Standard and HP steel is momentum and shot size - as a guide, a standard No 4 with 1300 ft/sec at the muzzle  at 50 yards has 498 against the HP at 1400 at the 50 yards having 510 ft/sec. Consequently, according to all that we're told you could initially open up the extra full to full and see what you get without fear of damage using a standard steel cartridge and then take it from there. On the other hand, I'd be inclined to jump in and just have them opened to 1/4 by 1/2 and change the cartridges to get something close to what I'd want - lead or steel.  

[Rob85]

When it comes to someone saying you shouldn't put steel through a gun choked more than half, is this to do with pressure or is it the idea that the steel shot won't compress enough and it's the diameter of the shot filled cup going through the choke that would "do the damage"?

[Scully]

Would it be beyond the remit of a gunsmith to measure any given choke in an already existing choke, and ream out a full choke to those dimensions? 

[Gafto]

 

 

On 30/03/2021 at 09:05, Rob85 said:

Where roughly in NI? If it's a plain set of barrels without being chrome lined then I was quoted 30quid a barrel at my local place, they said a hard chrome barrel might be a little more. What kind of gun and what are the barrels choked at as I haven't bothered getting mine opened up and have been shooting steel through both my guns. Mainly an over under that is pretty tightly choked....at least half and very full

I live near Ballymena. The gun is a 686special from '92 and I presume that it is chrome lined. Chokes are 3/4 and full as it is a trap gun. As others have mentioned there is a lot of conflicting advice around steel. I have been told and read that I can use standard steel through tight chokes, others have said the barrels will bulge over time. I think for trap shooting it will be a while before we can no longer use lead so I am in no rush, but wondered if there was someone in NI who could do this job properly when the time came. I have contacted Teague and they will do it for £70 per barrel including VAT and at least I know that if I was to get it done with them, it would be as good a job as anyone could do. I would just have to send the barrels to them via my RFD.

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, Gafto said:

 

 

I live near Ballymena. The gun is a 686special from '92 and I presume that it is chrome lined. Chokes are 3/4 and full as it is a trap gun. As others have mentioned there is a lot of conflicting advice around steel. I have been told and read that I can use standard steel through tight chokes, others have said the barrels will bulge over time. I think for trap shooting it will be a while before we can no longer use lead so I am in no rush, but wondered if there was someone in NI who could do this job properly when the time came. I have contacted Teague and they will do it for £70 per barrel including VAT and at least I know that if I was to get it done with them, it would be as good a job as anyone could do. I would just have to send the barrels to them via my RFD.

Did Teague insist on reproof following the work? 

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Nailed it. Much of the performance characteristics of shotguns are known and based of empirical information and are precise. Unfortunately, these by necessity are based on averages. This means that not all are so (known). Couple that with modern technology which reflects that not everything that we've believed to be the case is correct. This applies in particular to choke and patterns. Consequently, any individual barrel must be treated in its own right. The smart move is to accept a satisfactory performance level before you get into the area of the law of diminishing return. Doing so gives some leeway. The main difference between Standard and HP steel is momentum and shot size - as a guide, a standard No 4 with 1300 ft/sec at the muzzle  at 50 yards has 498 against the HP at 1400 at the 50 yards having 510 ft/sec. Consequently, according to all that we're told you could initially open up the extra full to full and see what you get without fear of damage using a standard steel cartridge and then take it from there. On the other hand, I'd be inclined to jump in and just have them opened to 1/4 by 1/2 and change the cartridges to get something close to what I'd want - lead or steel.  

Will 1/4...1/2 give me full and extra full patterns with steel?

[Scully]

Just now, Old farrier said:

Will 1/4...1/2 give me full and extra full patterns with steel?

It’s a question worth asking.  I’m assuming the tighter patterns are down to the encompassing plastic wad? Will steel pattern as tight as it does with plastic, when we are forced to use anything but plastic as a wad with steel? 
All those plastic wads must be accumulating around shorelines now, considering the years lead has been banned for fowling? It goes without saying ( although it’s been said countless times ) that once lead goes plastic will closely follow. 

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

It’s a question worth asking.  I’m assuming the tighter patterns are down to the encompassing plastic wad? Will steel pattern as tight as it does with plastic, when we are forced to use anything but plastic as a wad with steel? 
All those plastic wads must be accumulating around shorelines now, considering the years lead has been banned for fowling? It goes without saying ( although it’s been said countless times ) that once lead goes plastic will closely follow. 

Assumption?

that’s not so good I’m aware of speed and energy of the cartridges 

I shall be using fibre wad and fibre shot cups or biowads 

What I need to know is how much to take out of the choke to get a full choke pattern with steel that can be shot safely 

seems to me every one keeps saying bore out the choke without any evidence of the pattern produced afterwards 

im aware that HP steel and big shot HP steel can be used through extra full aftermarket extended choke without a problem but loathe to try it in a fixed choke gun 

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Assumption?

that’s not so good I’m aware of speed and energy of the cartridges 

I shall be using fibre wad and fibre shot cups or biowads 

What I need to know is how much to take out of the choke to get a full choke pattern with steel that can be shot safely 

seems to me every one keeps saying bore out the choke without any evidence of the pattern produced afterwards 

im aware that HP steel and big shot HP steel can be used through extra full aftermarket extended choke without a problem but loathe to try it in a fixed choke gun 

Yes, assumption. I can’t think of any other reason steel patterns tighter than lead other than it being down to the wad containing the shot, therefore if you shoot steel up front of an ordinary felt wad then a quarter choke should give a quarter pattern, irrespective of shot type? Doesn’t that make sense?

I may be talking out of my bum here, but if steels tendency to pattern tighter is down to the wad, then shouldn’t the above follow? I’m no expert, it just sounds logical to me. 

[wymberley]

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

Yes, assumption. I can’t think of any other reason steel patterns tighter than lead other than it being down to the wad containing the shot, therefore if you shoot steel up front of an ordinary felt wad then a quarter choke should give a quarter pattern, irrespective of shot type? Doesn’t that make sense?

I may be talking out of my bum here, but if steels tendency to pattern tighter is down to the wad, then shouldn’t the above follow? I’m no expert, it just sounds logical to me. 

How about as lead gets distorted more that steel in its journey down the barrel this now non too perfect ballistically speaking chunk of metal does not fly as true as steel for some 40 odd yards so increasingly spreads itself about a big tad more.

[Old farrier]

55 minutes ago, Scully said:

Yes, assumption. I can’t think of any other reason steel patterns tighter than lead other than it being down to the wad containing the shot, therefore if you shoot steel up front of an ordinary felt wad then a quarter choke should give a quarter pattern, irrespective of shot type? Doesn’t that make sense?

I may be talking out of my bum here, but if steels tendency to pattern tighter is down to the wad, then shouldn’t the above follow? I’m no expert, it just sounds logical to me. 

But I’m not using plastic wads !!!!

if ? 
it’s down to the plastic wad only  why does everyone say you can’t shoot it through a full choke 

but I don’t want a 1/4 choke pattern it’s not advisable to fire steel shot without any barrel protection hence the shot cup or biowads 

to be honest you would be more credible to say you don’t know as opposed to supposition and guesswork 

the fact is no one has done the research 

logic dosent come into this it’s scientific fact that is required 

so I ask again 

how much do I need to remove from the extra full choke bored for lead to make it safe to shoot a full choke pattern with steel ?

 

4 minutes ago, wymberley said:

How about as lead gets distorted more that steel in its journey down the barrel this now non too perfect ballistically speaking chunk of metal does not fly as true as steel for some 40 odd yards so increasingly spreads itself about a big tad more.

That could be a factory not the wad holding it together 👍

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Would it be beyond the remit of a gunsmith to measure any given choke in an already existing choke, and ream out a full choke to those dimensions? 

Good idea, but let's say your friendly RFD does just that and then takes that much out of his customer's barrel(s) in one fell swoop which, then when patterned, indicate one step down from what was asked for. You can imagine the content of the customer's next post on PW.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well someone has to be first to take their loved old gun to a Gun Smith for a little opening up to get the gun regulated for a chosen steel (soft Iron) load.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Well someone has to be first to take their loved old gun to a Gun Smith for a little opening up to get the gun regulated for a chosen steel (soft Iron) load.

Who’s going to be experimented on anyone got a purdey live pigeon gun? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Old farrier said:

Who’s going to be experimented on anyone got a purdey live pigeon gun? 

I know a man who does have one, but he is not quite mad enough to spoil it!

[Old farrier]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I know a man who does have one, but he is not quite mad enough to spoil it!

Why not I’m sure we can do a bit of guess work and a home made Reamer where is ditchman when you need him 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Old farrier said:

Why not I’m sure we can do a bit of guess work and a home made Reamer where is ditchman when you need him 

Chasing mink in Narfolk!

[Gerry78]

Regarding the original post there’s been a lot of debate over steel shot regarding chokes barrels etc I HAVE USED a aya no3 magnum made 1979 for Years with steel shot plastic wads With no ill effects on both barrels 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Gerry78 said:

Regarding the original post there’s been a lot of debate over steel shot regarding chokes barrels etc I HAVE USED a aya no3 magnum made 1979 for Years with steel shot plastic wads With no ill effects on both barrels 

Yes I am sure a lot of people are, but what is it choked and how much difference between lead and steel when patterned on the plate?