Alternatives to lead shot (by Guns on Pegs)

[steve_b_wales]

https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/what-are-the-alternatives-to-lead-shot?fbclid=IwAR07Mi10_qmZxSlVpr51Gvs0xDesPP0UUCrRzHKj1LvhDlP8bPf_4FfohlM

[Dave at kelton]

Interesting article thanks for posting

[Guest cookoff013]

https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=847786

[theshootist]

What I took from that is if I want to shoot past 30m then be realistic and buy a wildfowling gun designed to deliver large steel loads. Or use one of the super expensive alternatives.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, to shoot live quarry you have to use 2 sizes larger from 6s lead shot to 4s in steel, has anyone measured 6 lead against 4 steel ? surely lead shot diameter should conform to steel shot diameter, or am i missing something, i can understand using normal steel cartridges in most english /foreign side by sides as the use of the shot cups, this came from a cartridge seller, The gamebore super steel 28g 7.5s would be 7s or 6.5s as steel shot needs to be slightly larger to get the same power as lead shot, all very confusing, so this game season guns on pegs recommend to use steel shot 4 cartridges? and suitable for most nitro proofed side by sides,

[lancer425]

On 25/02/2020 at 20:50, cookoff013 said:

https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=847786

That is some good work there. Thank you. .

12-76-1050 bar HP
cx2000
26grain vectan A1
Gualandi Tubo24 / CLCB wad
25 gram Steel shot 499 Bar 411 m/s
28 gram Pure copper shot 569 Bar 403 m/s
HP 29 gram ITX-10 shot 677 Bar 405 m/s HP
32 gram Niceshot shot 688 Bar 387 m/s
HP 32 gram Bismuth shot 677 Bar 382 m/s HP
HP 36 gram Lead shot 757 Bar 379 m/s HP
fold crimp
HP - passes HP only

all these have been run through the CIP system, 5 shot string. the HP stands for high performance second tier pressures, thats below 1050bar, and the s2n variation is below that criteria too.

so...
those not labelled HP passed cip standard (740bar MAP) and passed the 740bar s2n (variation)
those labelled HP passes the second tier (1050bar MAP) or below and passes the 1050bar s2n (variation)

additional notes,
because sample size is so small, 5 shotstring, the statistics s2n is ultra strict. meaning if they pass they are safe. i cant justifying shooting all thos nontoxics (well someone else to shoot them)

[Guest cookoff013]

Using that data it should be great start for developing 36g hevishot /T13 T12 to be tested.

I did think about repeating this with a big fibre wad and 42g lead, 36g bismuth.

And / or putting it in a 12/70mm + rto

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

Using that data it should be great start for developing 36g hevishot /T13 T12 to be tested.

I did think about repeating this with a big fibre wad and 42g lead, 36g bismuth.

And / or putting it in a 12/70mm + rto

Good work there to be honest.

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, to shoot live quarry you have to use 2 sizes larger from 6s lead shot to 4s in steel, has anyone measured 6 lead against 4 steel ? surely lead shot diameter should conform to steel shot diameter, or am i missing something, i can understand using normal steel cartridges in most english /foreign side by sides as the use of the shot cups, this came from a cartridge seller, The gamebore super steel 28g 7.5s would be 7s or 6.5s as steel shot needs to be slightly larger to get the same power as lead shot, all very confusing, so this game season guns on pegs recommend to use steel shot 4 cartridges? and suitable for most nitro proofed side by sides,

You may be missing something. Before anyone jumps on me, I know steel works and you don't always need to match the steel energy to that of lead - sufficient is enough. Initially the requirement to match the lead was to go up three sizes. Although it worked, it's credibility was going down the pan and so to avoid this the steel shot sizes were amended to disguise that fact. If you remain unsure, look at the sizes detailed on the Bullets, Cartridges, etc forum.

[Guest cookoff013]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Good work there to be honest.

Yeah i know. I did it.

there were 2 shells not published. An energy deplete model and 42g tungsten. <wink-wink>.

So i or we can fire any metal or alloy or sinter that has pretty much any density. The key to that test was the pressure pulse.

[wymberley]

On 27/02/2020 at 09:21, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, to shoot live quarry you have to use 2 sizes larger from 6s lead shot to 4s in steel, has anyone measured 6 lead against 4 steel ? surely lead shot diameter should conform to steel shot diameter, or am i missing something, i can understand using normal steel cartridges in most english /foreign side by sides as the use of the shot cups, this came from a cartridge seller, The gamebore super steel 28g 7.5s would be 7s or 6.5s as steel shot needs to be slightly larger to get the same power as lead shot, all very confusing, so this game season guns on pegs recommend to use steel shot 4 cartridges? and suitable for most nitro proofed side by sides,

Although it's simple enough, it's not quite straight forward. All the major studies on lead/steel back along revealed that if two dissimilarly sized pellets have the same energy then the smaller is more lethally effective. Consequently if you wish to mimic the lead shot penetration performance with, say, steel - not always necessary, but if you do - then a fiddle factor known as energy density (ED) gives a far more accurate answer. Quick example, a 6 lead launched at 1250 ft/sec will have 1.0 ftlbs at 51 yards so will a 5 steel launched at 1550. But the ED for the lead is 100 whereas that for the steel is 69.

[Penelope]

Looks to be all academic now, with the announcement from the cartridge manufacturers.

[enfieldspares]

This:

https://gamebore.com/uk/news/news/joint-statement-uk-cartridge-manufacturers

For those and handheld devices that can't open a link here it is as a cut and paste:

UK GAME CARTRIDGES

Joint statement by the Directors of the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers

Statement: Friday 28th February 2020

From: Rodrigo Crespo of Eley Hawk, Paul James of Gamebore, David Bontoft of Hull Cartridge and Roger Hurley of Lyalvale Express

 

We, the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers, hereby address the announcement made by BASC and other organisations on Monday 24th February, stating their “wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years”.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made.

The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case. This is a major concern to us for a number of reasons, reasons we would have explained to the organisations prior to the publication of their announcement, had we been given the opportunity to do so.

Europe is currently experiencing a steel shot shortage. A move from lead to steel shot for the majority of UK’s shotgun ammunition will inevitably put more pressure on the market for raw material. This would create further shortages in the short term and push up the price as the steel shot industry invests to increase capacity.

The examples of overseas markets successfully transitioned to steel shot such as Denmark and the USA water-fowling sector, should not be used as proof of a solution. This is because the steel loads used in these markets in any significant volume are loaded with plastic wads. In addition to this, the US and Danish regulations allow steel cartridges to be loaded to a much higher level of performance than here in the UK, to increase the lethality of the pellet.

Limitations to performance levels of steel ammunition currently allowed in the UK mean that we are already facing tougher challenges when developing an effective steel load compared to those used overseas. Couple this with the move away from plastic wads and we are even further limited on performance. We would like to see an increase in the performance levels allowed before we can begin to develop loads effective enough to produce clean, humane kills in the various types of shooting carried out in the UK.

There are indeed a handful of non-lead ammunition options with biodegradable wads currently on the market however, at this stage it is simply impossible to make these commercially viable. We cannot make a complete switch over to these products within a five year period without substantial investment into the industry. BASC and its fellow organisations do not have an understanding of the manufacturing processes involved and are therefore in no position to determine the length of time required to evolve.

Tungsten and Bismuth materials are very limited in their availability and significantly more costly to produce than steel. This will result in huge increases in costs, based on raw material prices, for smaller gauge shooters who cannot use steel. This may price many shooters out of the sport.

Right now, we need to decide which to eliminate– lead or plastic? We cannot avoid using both. At present the only commercially available options are lead shot with fibre wads, steel with plastic wads or unaffordable premium non-lead shot. Shooters and land owners will need to consider these options and then decide which option is preferable going forward.

We must be clear and educate the organisations as to what is realistic and achievable. Although the development of non-lead, non-plastic alternatives are in the early stages of development, it will be considerable time before a full range of options are available to shooters. This process is a long one that will require vast research, development and investment.

Collectively, we do agree that the industry needs to evolve to become more environmentally friendly. We anticipate this happening as larger industries continue to invest in plastic alternatives which will naturally filter down to ours and other smaller industries. These major industries are in a better position to develop the alternatives, the smaller industries such as ours will then follow. It is unrealistic to expect a relatively small industry such as ours to be at the forefront of the development of such materials.

Moving forward we will continue to encourage the use of steel shot where required, but at this early stage we have no alternative option but to support the use of lead with fibre wads as the solution to the issue of plastic pollution. Where non-lead shot is needed, we encourage the shooters to collect their used plastic wads where possible and dispose of them accordingly, as we know many already do so.

Lastly, we are committed to investing into the alternatives. Our collective goal is to develop high performance ammunition for all shotguns and gauges using sustainable materials and therefore secure the future of shooting. We simply ask that the organisations and individual shooters understand that doing this within a five year window without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE. 


Published 28th February 2020 

[Guest cookoff013]

Thats a great response. 

To be fair.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, no one has mentioned George, is he still going making cartridges ? Proper cartridges ? i wonder what he thinks of this lead shot ban in a few years time

Edited February 28, 2020 by oldypigeonpopper

[222mark]

I gave BASC up after the lead ban on ducks. Looks like they are selling us down the river once again. Hope any members they do still have think carefully as they seem to be the biggest enemy shooting has at the present time. Anyone remember the vote of no confidence on John Swift last time. They all pulled rank to save his job. As before all they are interested in is their salaries and pensions. Enough said.