Cartridge Question

[Zimtrout]

I am now shooting with a 16 gauge browning. 

My question is two fold really. Possibly three fold......

Firstly am i right in assuming that in a 16 gauge 30g 6 (English shot size) cartridge there are less pellets than a 30g 6 12 gauge cartridge? From what I thought I understood was that the pattern was the same, but the shot string was shorter?? (shot through the same choke) (Writing and reading that back has made me question that too, if there are less pellets how can the pattern density be the same??)

Secondly, if a given cartridge gives a muzzle velocity at for arguments sake 1350 fps , does it take more powder to make a size 4 shot go at the same velocity as at size 7 shot cartridge. ( I thought i understood that the bigger shot the more energy was needed to propel it, and once moving it was harder to stop, that is contacted a target with more energy) 

Thirdly,  does a 32 g load of pellets need more powder than a 28g load to achieve the same velocity? 

my poor little brain cant understand, please excuse my ignorance. 

cheers ZT

[Westley]

The clue is in the grams weight, it is 30 grams in ANY calibre .   I shall leave the velocities for others to answer as I am not really interested  in the ballistics of a cartridge, I tend to judge them on how they perform in my gun.

[enfieldspares]

I am now shooting with a 16 gauge browning. 

NIce. Classy gun. I had until I sold them a couple of years ago a pair of 2 3/4" chambered 16 bore single trigger self-opening SLEs by Somerton Guns = Arietta 803. Being 2 3/4" the maximum loads that you could shoot would be the equivalent of the Eley 16 bore Alphamax of 1 1/8 ounce of shot. 32 grams in "new money".

Firstly am i right in assuming that in a 16 gauge 30g 6 (English shot size) cartridge there are less pellets than a 30g 6 12 gauge cartridge?

No. A 16 bore loaded with 30 grams #6 will have the same pellet count in the charge of shot as a 12 bore loaded with 30 grams #6 as would a .410" bore loaded with the same 30 grams #6 charge of shot. 

From what I thought I understood was that the pattern was the same, but the shot string was shorter?

This is a can of worms and they'll be all sorts of pros and cons. Pros are that it'll be I think a longer shot string. Now this is the can of worms bit. And I don't know the correct answer. WITH A STANDARD FIBRE WAD a LONGER CHARGE OF SHOT will have more pellets in contact with the bore so, therefore, more will be abraded by the bore and so be not round and not fly "true". But (why I don't know) in theory as the circumference of a 12 bore CHARGE OF SHOT is greater than the circumference of a 16 bore CHARGE OF SHOT what you suffer by a longer length you offset by a lesser circumference. A mathematician would need IMHO to work out the relative surface area of the two cylinders to know which actually has the greater number of shot in contact with the bore. But in the case of the .410" bore its indisputable that it won't pattern as well as more pellets are in contact with the bore and get abraded.

Secondly, if a given cartridge gives a muzzle velocity at for arguments sake 1350 fps , does it take more powder to make a size 4 shot go at the same velocity as at size 7 shot cartridge.

No the charge of shot if of the same weight will exit at the same, identical, velocity. As would a solid slug of the same weight. But downrange the heavier pellet notwithstanding its greater diameter will retain that initial velocity better. As of course would also the slug.

Thirdly,  does a 32 g load of pellets need more powder than a 28g load to achieve the same velocity? 

Yes. The heavier load if both are using identical powder will require more of that identical powder to achieve the same velocity as the lighter load.

My poor little brain cant understand, please excuse my ignorance. 

There's no shame in asking to find an answer to something that you aren't sure of. I was happy to help.

Edited August 9, 2020 by enfieldspares

[snow white]

30 grams is 30 grams same as 28 is still 28 it doesn’t make any difference what gauge shotgun 

[London Best]

Good answer from enfieldspares.

[Zimtrout]

12 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I am now shooting with a 16 gauge browning. 

NIce. Classy gun. I had until I sold them a couple of years ago a pair of 2 3/4" chambered 16 bore single trigger self-opening SLEs by Somerton Guns = Arietta 803. Being 2 3/4" the maximum loads that you could shoot would be the equivalent of the Eley 16 bore Alphamax of 1 1/8 ounce of shot. 32 grams in "new money".

Firstly am i right in assuming that in a 16 gauge 30g 6 (English shot size) cartridge there are less pellets than a 30g 6 12 gauge cartridge?

No. A 16 bore loaded with 30 grams #6 will have the same pellet count in the charge of shot as a 12 bore loaded with 30 grams #6 as would a .410" bore loaded with the same 30 grams #6 charge of shot. 

From what I thought I understood was that the pattern was the same, but the shot string was shorter?

This is a can of worms and they'll be all sorts of pros and cons. Pros are that it'll be I think a longer shot string. Now this is the can of worms bit. And I don't know the correct answer. WITH A STANDARD FIBRE WAD a LONGER CHARGE OF SHOT will have more pellets in contact with the bore so, therefore, more will be abraded by the bore and so be not round and not fly "true". But (why I don't know) in theory as the circumference of a 12 bore CHARGE OF SHOT is greater than the circumference of a 16 bore CHARGE OF SHOT what you suffer by a longer length you offset by a lesser circumference. A mathematician would need IMHO to work out the relative surface area of the two cylinders to know which actually has the greater number of shot in contact with the bore. But in the case of the .410" bore its indisputable that it won't pattern as well as more pellets are in contact with the bore and get abraded.

Secondly, if a given cartridge gives a muzzle velocity at for arguments sake 1350 fps , does it take more powder to make a size 4 shot go at the same velocity as at size 7 shot cartridge.

No the charge of shot if of the same weight will exit at the same, identical, velocity. As would a solid slug of the same weight. But downrange the heavier pellet notwithstanding its greater diameter will retain that initial velocity better. As of course would also the slug.

Thirdly,  does a 32 g load of pellets need more powder than a 28g load to achieve the same velocity? 

Yes. The heavier load if both are using identical powder will require more of that identical powder to achieve the same velocity as the lighter load.

My poor little brain cant understand, please excuse my ignorance. 

There's no shame in asking to find an answer to something that you aren't sure of. I was happy to help.

Thank you! that explains a lot

So I am not loosing any performance really shooting a 16 gauge vs a 12 gauge and normal loads 3g of 6s lets say!

[enfieldspares]

 

11 hours ago, Zimtrout said:

Thank you! that explains a lot

So I am not loosing any performance really shooting a 16 gauge vs a 12 gauge and normal loads 3g of 6s lets say!

No, not at all, for all intents and purposes the performance of the cartridge will be identical using 30g of #6 in either a 16 bore or a 12 bore. The advantage of the 16 will be that it is a slighly lighter weight gun so you'll be less tired at the end of a day either full standing or walking up. But the disadvantage will be that on, say, a round pf one hundred sporting clay that even if the gun fits your body will have absorbed, cumulatively more total recoil. The big advantage though is that nobody with a 12 bore is likely to try to cadge your 16 bore cartridges off you if they run out of their cartridges. The disadvantage is that for clay pigeon shooting that here in the UK there's not much choice...if any...in #7.5 or #8 or #9. That lack of #8 may be an issue if you are snipe shooting OTHER THAN IN ENGLAND WHERE THE USE OF LEAD SHOT IS NOW ILLEGAL FOR SNIPE. However LONGTHORNE GUNMAKERS at Northampton do stock a selcetion of 16 bore cartridges in smalle suzes of shot I was once told.

Edited August 10, 2020 by enfieldspares

[Zimtrout]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

 

No, not at all, for all intents and purposes the performance of the cartridge will be identical using 30g of #6 in either a 16 bore or a 12 bore. The advantage of the 16 will be that it is a slighly lighter weight gun so you'll be less tired at the end of a day either full standing or walking up. But the disadvantage will be that on, say, a round pf one hundred sporting clay that even if the gun fits your body will have absorbed, cumulatively more total recoil. The big advantage though is that nobody with a 12 bore is likely to try to cadge your 16 bore cartridges off you if they run out of their cartridges. The disadvantage is that for clay pigeon shooting that here in the UK there's not much choice...if any...in #7.5 or #8 or #9. That lack of #8 may be an issue if you are snipe shooting. However LONGTHORNE GUNMAKERS at Northampton do stock a selcetion of 16 bore cartridges in smalle suzes of shot I was once told.

Hull also make a 26g 7.5 clay load, which aint bad!!

[Smokersmith]

3 hours ago, Zimtrout said:

Thank you! that explains a lot

So I am not loosing any performance really shooting a 16 gauge vs a 12 gauge and normal loads 3g of 6s lets say!

The only technical disadvantage is that the wider bore of the 12g, will accommodate the pellets in a shorter column, and have less pellets in contact with the barrel wall as the shot is fired.

This should lead to less deformed pellets in the 12g, and therefore slightly better patterns.

In practice .. point it in the right place, and stuff will be dead!

[enfieldspares]

Now as I've sold my pair of 16s I do have a quantity of plastic case fibre wad that I'd like to sell. I am a genuine five minutes from M1/M69 J21 at Leicester Fotrest East which is outside of the "Leicester Lockdown" zone. These are as below:

250x Lyalvale Supreme Sixteen 16 bore, lead #7 shot, 28g, 65mm plastic case. Sealed maker's box. £ 70.00 for the case of 250x in their maker's boxes of twenty five in the maker's outer case. I also have a part "slab" of approximately a further 100x at £7.00 per box of twenty-five. *

* Moderators if inappropriate here please advise me and delete.

 

[Farmboy91]

Pretty sure saga make a clay load to at a reasonable price.

[busbiter]

Hull Pro Sixteen 24g 7.5 (Just Cartridges)and Cheddite Drago 28g 8 (uk 7.5 from Malmo) are the only clay loads I have ever been able to source.

My favourite cartridges by a long way are the Rottweil Special 16F 27g in 6 2.7mm (uk 5.5). I shoot a B525 and with 1/2 choke in the top and 3/4 in the bottom barrel 95% of the time. I did shoot a few VIP 28g 7's last week and these seemed very punchy! Saying that, an old 1970's Eley Maximum 2.5mm did bring down a nice 40 yard crosser 😉

[Zimtrout]

21 hours ago, busbiter said:

Hull Pro Sixteen 24g 7.5 (Just Cartridges)and Cheddite Drago 28g 8 (uk 7.5 from Malmo) are the only clay loads I have ever been able to source.

My favourite cartridges by a long way are the Rottweil Special 16F 27g in 6 2.7mm (uk 5.5). I shoot a B525 and with 1/2 choke in the top and 3/4 in the bottom barrel 95% of the time. I did shoot a few VIP 28g 7's last week and these seemed very punchy! Saying that, an old 1970's Eley Maximum 2.5mm did bring down a nice 40 yard crosser 😉

I thought the hull pro 16s were 26g, but yes,  they are fine for my limited ability. Never tried the cheddite ones, are the available mail order??

I have tried the Rottweil 16F carts they are markedly quick, the 7s our 6.5 are a fine pigeon load indeed.

I like Eley VIPs, in 6s and 7s,the 30g 5 load that they do is a monster of a cartridge.  However I think my current favourite is the Lyvale 30g 6 cartridge.  I am using 1/4 and 3/8ths in my Browning white lightening, bought some extended chokes from Briley.