Glamorous Usula E.U. Babe

[ditchman]

15 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Got to agree with Mungler's post.

The EU said the UK were too quick to give the go ahead on vaccines, then subsequently agreed they were okay. They then declared they were unsafe, before doing another U-turn and declaring them safe. in the meantime, people in the EU are falling victim to Covid and dying. 

I honestly believe there is blood on their hands. They are beyond dreadful and playing with lives, whilst trying to present an image of competence. 

If there are still people in the UK who think the EU is a good thing, there is a name for them - simpletons.

sooner or later...........some faction or factions will try to bring "them" to book.............easier said than done....

[Vince Green]

The End! Von der Leyen was HUGE SHOCKED as major EU nations turn against Brussels - YouTube

[ditchman]

must get a sound card sometime

[Raja Clavata]

On 20/03/2021 at 07:39, Mungler said:

Raja, the point about Brexit is that it’s effect has almost entirely been washed away by Covid. The world as we knew it has been turned upside down with the new and more serious economic threat. Following on, the landscape has so dramatically changed that it could be a game changer which actually dramatically favours the UK and so becomes the straw that breaks an already fragile EU - granted, more by luck than judgment or design but ‘how or why’ doesn’t matter does it?

The problem with remoaners is that they can’t concede any of this - even Raja’s post is dripping with ‘yeah but we were right and Brexit was bad and brexiteers just got lucky but....’.

They can’t admit that actually it’s self determination that is the big difference  here as we are we are quicker and more flexible and underscored in all of this is the British mindset which is entirely different to the continent. 

Indeed, I haven’t seen a single remoaner pass critical judgment on the European leaders who have tried to cut the AZ vaccine off at the knees. In all seriousness, after this I would form a tribunal and hold all those European leaders to account for all the unnecessary deaths which absolutely will arise as a result of this. Oh and don’t forget the measles epidemic which will follow next year as all the anti vaccer morons get a foothold in the minds of the stupid and get to point to the ‘legitimate fears’ of their European leaders. It is genuinely criminal behaviour and not one remoaner can bring themselves to a single cross word against anything European - you remoaners are just as bad if not worse than those you seek to decry. 

If we get out of this 1 year in front of Europe, that first leaver advantage with all our other advantages (English language, proper legal system, independent currency, national desire to graft and get on etc) well it’s going to get pretty exciting I think.

👍

👍

I’ve said several times that COVID has trumped Brexit.

My post isn’t dripping with anything. You’ve somewhat confused me now since I don’t know if you’re labelling me a remoaner or not, I assume not since I’ve been very critical of the EUs handling of the vaccine debacle.

But then you go on to refer to “you remoaners”.

TBH you seem a bit riled and haven’t addressed any of the points I raised.

Fair attempt at diversion but easily seen through.

[Mungler]

Genuinely no idea what points you have made and remain outstanding / unaddressed. If you list them out I’ll dive in.
 

[Mungler]

10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

TBH you seem a bit riled and haven’t addressed any of the points I raised.

Fair attempt at diversion but easily seen through.

I still need that list.

[Raja Clavata]

12 hours ago, Mungler said:

I still need that list.

The key point was this:

I may well be wrong but suspect our vaccine success had much less to do directly with Brexit than some people would conveniently believe or suggest. It would be interesting to see impartial data on this but won't hold my breath.

If my first suspicion is correct then it follows that your second point is not particularly clear cut either, particularly bearing in mind that we were never directly tied to the Euro.

I then cited this article:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/covid-vaccine-decisions-brexit

I believe the underlying facts as to whether being in or out of the EU had a direct impact on the resounding success of our vaccine programme is an important one. From my understanding we hedged our bets and placed orders for ~367M vaccine doses in advance of any of them being approved anywhere. 

It's far from clear to me what legal impediments being a member of the EU would have imposed in preventing us ordering the vaccines when we did.

There are other points but this is the key one. Instead of answering, in any way, you went off on some remoaner rant; no doubt popular on here but nonetheless...

[Mungler]

No one has to my knowledge ever suggested that Brexit aided the development of the Oxford AZ vaccine or indeed any vaccine.

Where did you read that?

And no, I’d never suggest that Brexit helped any vaccine development.

So, that’s a non point.

My view is that the flexibility of the Tory government with a large majority enabled it to make fast decisions quickly and reach contractual commitments quickly with suppliers.

Next point please.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Mungler

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

The key point was this:

I may well be wrong but suspect our vaccine success had much less to do directly with Brexit than some people would conveniently believe or suggest. It would be interesting to see impartial data on this but won't hold my breath.

If my first suspicion is correct then it follows that your second point is not particularly clear cut either, particularly bearing in mind that we were never directly tied to the Euro.

I then cited this article:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/covid-vaccine-decisions-brexit

I believe the underlying facts as to whether being in or out of the EU had a direct impact on the resounding success of our vaccine programme is an important one. From my understanding we hedged our bets and placed orders for ~367M vaccine doses in advance of any of them being approved anywhere. 

It's far from clear to me what legal impediments being a member of the EU would have imposed in preventing us ordering the vaccines when we did.

There are other points but this is the key one. Instead of answering, in any way, you went off on some remoaner rant; no doubt popular on here but nonetheless...

Tagged you back in.

I want to make short work of your list.

[Raja Clavata]

Say what!? I referred to our vaccination programme and made no reference to the development of an individual vaccine. So I agree your incorrect inference on the above is absolutely a non-point. You're the first to raise it as far as I'm aware.

My first point remains; if you're unable / unwilling to address that then this is a totally futile discussion. That being the case you have made your remoaner rant and may as well jog on - we've both got better things to do with our time.

 

 

[Raja Clavata]

On 20/03/2021 at 07:39, Mungler said:

Raja, the point about Brexit is that it’s effect has almost entirely been washed away by Covid. The world as we knew it has been turned upside down with the new and more serious economic threat. Following on, the landscape has so dramatically changed that it could be a game changer which actually dramatically favours the UK and so becomes the straw that breaks an already fragile EU - granted, more by luck than judgment or design but ‘how or why’ doesn’t matter does it?

The problem with remoaners is that they can’t concede any of this - even Raja’s post is dripping with ‘yeah but we were right and Brexit was bad and brexiteers just got lucky but....’.

They can’t admit that actually it’s self determination that is the big difference  here as we are we are quicker and more flexible and underscored in all of this is the British mindset which is entirely different to the continent. 

Indeed, I haven’t seen a single remoaner pass critical judgment on the European leaders who have tried to cut the AZ vaccine off at the knees. In all seriousness, after this I would form a tribunal and hold all those European leaders to account for all the unnecessary deaths which absolutely will arise as a result of this. Oh and don’t forget the measles epidemic which will follow next year as all the anti vaccer morons get a foothold in the minds of the stupid and get to point to the ‘legitimate fears’ of their European leaders. It is genuinely criminal behaviour and not one remoaner can bring themselves to a single cross word against anything European - you remoaners are just as bad if not worse than those you seek to decry. 

If we get out of this 1 year in front of Europe, that first leaver advantage with all our other advantages (English language, proper legal system, independent currency, national desire to graft and get on etc) well it’s going to get pretty exciting I think.

The other points are wrapped up in here along with a ton of irony, but like I stated, no point going there at this stage.

[Mungler]

8 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Say what!? I referred to our vaccination programme and made no reference to the development of an individual vaccine. So I agree your incorrect inference on the above is absolutely a non-point. You're the first to raise it as far as I'm aware.

My first point remains; if you're unable / unwilling to address that then this is a totally futile discussion. That being the case you have made your remoaner rant and may as well jog on - we've both got better things to do with our time.

 

 

Seriously, in one, perhaps two sentences, what is the point you are making or even the gist / summary of the point that you are making because it is entirely unclear to me? I’m dead serious, you are making no sense right now. 

If anyone else is reading this and can help explain what point RC is attempting to make then I will be most grateful. 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

I'll take a whack at Raja's point:

"Had we remained in the EU, we could've still done our own thing with respect to vaccines, like other member states could have.  As there is, legally, apparently nothing stopping member states doing so."

But, and here's Raja's blindspot, it might legally have been possible to do so, but politically completely untenable.  We would've been crucified, as per usual, and the UK would've found itself in the European Court.  The judges might well have ruled in our favour on that particular point of law, eventually.  But it would have still caused major delays and the usual elements of the press would have gone on the attack for daring to deviate from the Brussels Technorati diktats

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I'll take a whack at Raja's point:

"Had we remained in the EU, we could've still done our own thing with respect to vaccines, like other member states could have.  As there is, legally, apparently nothing stopping member states doing so."

But, and here's Raja's blindspot, it might legally have been possible to do so, but politically completely untenable.  We would've been crucified, as per usual, and the UK would've found itself in the European Court.  The judges might well have ruled in our favour on that particular point of law, eventually.  But it would have still caused major delays and the usual elements of the press would have gone on the attack for daring to deviate from the Brussels Technorati diktats

Thankfully enough people voted for us to leave and we are out of the poorly run, unjustifiable, house of cards.

[bavarianbrit]

On 17/03/2021 at 19:12, Gordon R said:

Vince - a detailed prediction. I was merely going to add that she is just a bit thick.

But Ursula is a qualified medical doctor and mutti Merkel was a university research scientist in quantum chemistry before going into politics. So what do you have to balance your comment, an O level?

Keep to the plot.

[Gordon R]

Quote

But Ursula is a qualified medical doctor and mutti Merkel was a university research scientist in quantum chemistry before going into politics. So what do you have to balance your comment, an O level?

They might have qualifications in other fields, but common sense is not their expertise. I find your juvenile comment just a bit stupid. Keep to the plot.

[ditchman]

28 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

They might have qualifications in other fields, but common sense is not their expertise. I find your juvenile comment just a bit stupid. Keep to the plot.

just logged on to reply............but see you beat me to it.............wouldnt it be wonderful if they ran coarses at univercity to study and qualify in "Common-sense"............hell will freeze over before that happens

[Vince Green]

59 minutes ago, bavarianbrit said:

But Ursula is a qualified medical doctor and mutti Merkel was a university research scientist in quantum chemistry before going into politics. So what do you have to balance your comment, an O level?

Keep to the plot.

Its a shame for everybody that they didn't stick to their chosen professions then, isn't it?

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I'll take a whack at Raja's point:

"Had we remained in the EU, we could've still done our own thing with respect to vaccines, like other member states could have.  As there is, legally, apparently nothing stopping member states doing so."

But, and here's Raja's blindspot, it might legally have been possible to do so, but politically completely untenable.  We would've been crucified, as per usual, and the UK would've found itself in the European Court.  The judges might well have ruled in our favour on that particular point of law, eventually.  But it would have still caused major delays and the usual elements of the press would have gone on the attack for daring to deviate from the Brussels Technorati diktats

My apparent blindspot appears to based on pure conjecture on your part. I was seeking to find the truth, I found it, others seem to be struggling to accept it as fact.

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Thankfully enough people voted for us to leave and we are out of the poorly run, unjustifiable, house of cards.

Indeed and let's hope we continue on a trajectory of success and continue to build on national pride.

The thing I don't get though is the constant need, in some quarters, to continue to bash the Remainers and even incorrectly represent things they have said in overall support of the wider Brexit outcome.

That said, and frankly far more disturbing, there are clearly a number who are not content with the fact we have left but appear to want to see the whole EU framework fail with scant regard for what they would mean to the common citizens of the affected states. I do not understand that mentality and I suggest it does nothing good for the overall Brexiteer cause. People need to move on but some clearly can't / won't.

[Mungler]

I still would like RC to explain and set out his original point to me. We’ve all had a stab at what we think he’s getting at but the bottom line is that what I think he’s getting his knickers in a twist over, no one has actually said or done. I will wait for his original point before walking him through this thread post by post to underline that what he appears to be going on about no one went near in the first place.

The new point he raises about wishing the end of the EU I can address now in that I do will on the end of the EU. I think it will come with France voting in Le Penn.

I think all countries should trade (that is the international and common language of business and business will always find a way if left alone by politicians) and currently it appears clear to me that the EU will seek to find a way to punish us - whilst that club continues to exist we will be on the outside and the receiving end of aggravation (as recent events have adequately demonstrated). The sooner the club finishes the better for the UK. 
 

So, before we wander off into new points, let’s get this one dealt with first please.

 

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

Seriously, in one, perhaps two sentences, what is the point you are making or even the gist / summary of the point that you are making because it is entirely unclear to me? I’m dead serious, you are making no sense right now.
 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Mungler

[udderlyoffroad]

42 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

My apparent blindspot appears to based on pure conjecture on your part.

Do you, really, truly believe, had we been in the EU, and our politicians had realised the EU approval and procurement process was a cluster, and had decided to go our own way, that the EU would've just accepted this?

Regardless of whether we could legally have done this or not, they would've raised a ****storm.

Purely conjecture of course, and a one of those not really helpful what-if-in-history questions, but that was what the article you linked to claimed.

46 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I was seeking to find the truth, I found it, others seem to be struggling to accept it as fact.

What you found was an opinion piece.  It might have been the opinion of an expert.  But it was still only an opinion, his truth, if you will.  And as above, the we will never actually know the truth, as it didn't happen like that.  So no, I don't think you found 'the truth'.

 

47 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The thing I don't get though is the constant need, in some quarters, to continue to bash the Remainers and even incorrectly represent things they have said in overall support of the wider Brexit outcome.

Not entirely sure what the psychological term is for when an abuse victim becomes an abuser themselves, but a mild form of that.

 

51 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That said, and frankly far more disturbing, there are clearly a number who are not content with the fact we have left but appear to want to see the whole EU framework fail with scant regard for what they would mean to the common citizens of the affected states.

As opposed to what will happen to the citizens of those states should the EU project 'succeed' according to definition of success by those most rabid Europhiles, the European Commission?  I.e., a United States of Europe, without any of the checks and balances embedded, say, into the US constitutional framework...such as an elected executive?!

Yes, the EU in its current form needs to fail, for the benefit of everyone.  It needs, urgently, to go back to being a trading bloc.  Of that I am quite certain.  Once it is a genuine trading bloc again, there is no reason for the UK not to rejoin.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

I still would like RC to explain and set out his original point to me. We’ve all had a stab at what we think he’s getting at but the bottom line is that what I think he’s getting his knickers in a twist over, no one has actually said or done. I will wait for his original point before walking him through this thread post by post to underline that what he appears to be going on about no one went near in the first place.

The new point he raises about wishing the end of the EU I can address now in that I do will on the end of the EU. I think it will come with France voting in Le Penn.

I think all countries should trade (that is the international and common language of business and business will always find a way if left alone by politicians) and currently it appears clear to me that the EU will seek to find a way to punish us - whilst that club continues to exist we will be on the outside and the receiving end of aggravation (as recent events have adequately demonstrated). The sooner the club finishes the better for the UK. 
 

So, before we wander off into new points, let’s get this one dealt with first please.

 

 

I cannot seriously believe you didn't / don't get the original point. It related to your assertion that but for Brexit we'd have been shackled to the same vaccine sourcing issues as the EU. All pointers are that in reality that needn't have been the case at all.

You either missed the point repeatedly or fell over yourself with the remoaner rant (playing to the audience again), or frankly, I don't know what...

Two of you (not sure yours counts, so perhaps one but certainly not all) had a stab at my point - again you're playing to the crowd (let's imply it's everyone else against Raja) - tut tut.

You don't need to walk me through this thread post by post or by any other means thank-you.

Ironically you suggest my undergarments are twisted but you went off on some weird tangent about vaccine development.

I am not bemoaning Brexit in way, shape or form. I am just querying what I believe to be a false claim that Brexit has saved our COVID bacon. 

[Mungler]

15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I cannot seriously believe you didn't / don't get the original point. It related to your assertion that but for Brexit we'd have been shackled to the same vaccine sourcing issues as the EU.

 

 

Two words : "where, precisely?"

EDIT

I should add that I can see what I have written, but not your following point?

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Mungler

[Raja Clavata]

On 19/03/2021 at 21:14, Mungler said:

Whilst the Brexit arguments focus on our voting ourselves poorer in the short to medium term, I genuinely believe that if we had been shackled to the same EU procurement process as the rest of Europe then the differences would have been life and death. 

One word; above

[Mungler]

Dear Lord, how can you write so many words to make such a narrow point 😆

I’m on a park bench drinking a coffee, back in two shakes of a lamb’s tale.