Safe or not?

[WalkedUp]

Again incorrect.

1. It is not possible if someone is pointing a shotgun directly at you from 20 yards to see a breech flag

2. You get into the habit of putting a breech flag in and waving your gun around like an inebriated p head trying to take a tinkle. 999 times out of 1000 you do that correctly. That 1 time the trap is faulty, or you put three in and two out... some distraction and you have a loaded gun pointed at people. 

It really is very simple. Do not point a gun at anything or anyone you do not intend to kill. 

Basically this thread comes down to:

A good man learns from their mistakes. A wise man learns from other’s. 

Until they negligently shoot someone, some people will just not learn safe handling and good muzzle awareness.

[WalkedUp]

I’m a relative junior. I’ve only shot for 22 years, but in that time I have seen plenty enough to know that tomorrow morning when I take my semi auto out on the geese it will not be pointed at my pal, myself or my dogs - even if I believe it to be unloaded. 

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Again incorrect.

1. It is not possible if someone is pointing a shotgun directly at you from 20 yards to see a breech flag

2. You get into the habit of putting a breech flag in and waving your gun around like an inebriated p head trying to take a tinkle. 999 times out of 1000 you do that correctly. That 1 time the trap is faulty, or you put three in and two out... some distraction and you have a loaded gun pointed at people. 

It really is very simple. Do not point a gun at anything or anyone you do not intend to kill. 

I think you really need to get a grip. The scenario in your second paragraph doesn’t even make sense, if there’s a flag in the breech, then the breech must be empty. 

By your logic, every slipped shotgun is a threat, based on the fact you can’t see if it’s unloaded or not. 

I’ll ask again, what threat does a semi auto shotgun with a flag in the breech, pose? 

[12gauge82]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

 

I’ll ask again, what threat does a semi auto shotgun with a flag in the breech, pose? 

I'll answer. Absolutely none! 

[London Best]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'll answer. Absolutely none! 

Correct!

But the rule which must not be broken is that you do not point a gun at anyone whether it is loaded or not.

[WalkedUp]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

But the rule which must not be broken is that you do not point a gun at anyone whether it is loaded or not.

Correct! 

[WalkedUp]

19 hours ago, Scully said:

I think you really need to get a grip. The scenario in your second paragraph doesn’t even make sense, if there’s a flag in the breech, then the breech must be empty. 

You need to read and think before you hit reply. The second item is not saying that if there is a breech flag the gun can be loaded, it is saying that you use a breech flag as your only form of safety then your sloppy gun handling will increase the risk of serious injury to others.

It is irresponsible to encourage sloppy gun handling. The persistent insistence from a minority that is acceptable to point a gun at another person needs to be rebutted to avoid misleading others who may not have the experience to see the rash foolishness of such behaviour. 

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

You need to read and think before you hit reply. The second item is not saying that if there is a breech flag the gun can be loaded, it is saying that you use a breech flag as your only form of safety then your sloppy gun handling will increase the risk of serious injury to others.

It is irresponsible to encourage sloppy gun handling. The persistent insistence from a minority that is acceptable to point a gun at another person needs to be rebutted to avoid misleading others who may not have the experience to see the rash foolishness of such behaviour. 

For crying out loud! You’re so wrapped up about being right it’s clouding your common sense! It’s not about who’s right or who’s wrong, it’s about being safe, so I’ll ask you again….what threat is posed from a semi auto with a flag in the breech? 

I have always banged on about muzzle awareness being everything, when it comes to being safe with a gun, time and time again on this forum, but carrying a semi auto in this manner isnt pointing it at anyone anymore than anyone carrying a broken OU or sxs at a clay ground. Some carry them over a shoulder for goodness sake! Where are those muzzles pointing then? For a start, with the latter you have no more proof the gun is empty than you claim to have regarding the SA in this thread, until you get a look at the breech end, ( and just look at the fuss created earlier by those who frown on that practice! ) and those muzzles could have swept through who knows how many pairs of feet or shins before you get a look, just like they do when guns are stood together chatting with their broken sxs’s on a shoot day, with cartridges in the breech! And don’t tell me it doesn’t happen because I’ve seen it. 
In my experience game shots are the scariest people to own guns……just have a look around you on your next driven day at all those ‘experienced’ shots who haven’t a clue how to un slip their guns without giving everyone a good look at the muzzles…..and just in case you missed it they’ll do it again when returning it! 😂
If you want to get really anal, what about all those guns who lay their sleeved guns on the Landrover bonnet for whatever reason, muzzle end pointing at stomach or chest height, or your kids head! Who’s to know that gun is empty? I even know some who carry their sxs’s closed and loaded because that’s how their Fathers did it! Who's to say that gun was emptied before it went back in its slip? There’s a good example of tradition for you…..idiots convinced that the safety on their gun makes them safe! 
People really need to get a grip, they really do. 
The owner of the SA, mentioned by the OP, had done all that is required of him regards ensuring his firearm was safe in the company of others. It couldn’t be broken for obvious reasons, and although maybe not immediately apparent ( nor would it have been immediately apparent if it had been carried differently but with the breech facing away from you ) it had a flag in the breech, thereby rendering it incapable of hurting anyone, so I’ll ask again, what threat is posed from a SA with a flag in the breech? 

 

[12gauge82]

44 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

You need to read and think before you hit reply. The second item is not saying that if there is a breech flag the gun can be loaded, it is saying that you use a breech flag as your only form of safety then your sloppy gun handling will increase the risk of serious injury to others.

It is irresponsible to encourage sloppy gun handling. The persistent insistence from a minority that is acceptable to point a gun at another person needs to be rebutted to avoid misleading others who may not have the experience to see the rash foolishness of such behaviour. 

What you don't seem to understand is there are other safe systems of gun handling that others use that are proven safe. 

Just because you've only ever been taught one, it doesn't make it the only correct system. 

[WalkedUp]

31 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

What you don't seem to understand is there are other safe systems of gun handling that others use that are proven safe. 

Just because you've only ever been taught one, it doesn't make it the only correct system. 

Please advise me on a system in which it is acceptable to point a gun at another person.

[WalkedUp]

37 minutes ago, Scully said:

anymore than anyone carrying a broken OU or sxs at a clay ground. Some carry them over a shoulder for goodness sake! Where are those muzzles pointing then?

Of course I do not condone a SxS or O/U being pointed at anyone, even if broken! Clearly that is just as bad, I would never suggest otherwise.

Please do not confuse my dislike of having a gun pointed at me with a dislike of semi autos. I love them. I used mine this morning. It is my favourite gun in the cabinet. It is just as dangerous as a SxS or O/U thus should never be pointed at anyone. 

[12gauge82]

22 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Please advise me on a system in which it is acceptable to point a gun at another person.

Where did I say it acceptable to point a gun at someone? 

The question was is a gun with a breach flag in it safe. The answer to that is yes. 

[12gauge82]

Playing your game though. How about when the military conduct training exercises with their firearms that have been proved clear and muzzle blocks fitted. They point them at each other and fire blanks, is that not safe? 

[WalkedUp]

I have said as much as I feel can be said to explain the situation. Obviously comparisons between clay pigeon etiquette and battle training for armed combat are probably not helpful so we should leave them there.

We disagree on this and I suspect we always will, but that is ok. 

[Houseplant]

On 23/09/2021 at 09:41, WalkedUp said:

Do not point a gun at anything or anyone you do not intend to kill. 

Haven't read the whole thread, but surely this is right? Anything else that can add to safety like flags is a good thing too. 

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

I have said as much as I feel can be said to explain the situation. Obviously comparisons between clay pigeon etiquette and battle training for armed combat are probably not helpful so we should leave them there.

We disagree on this and I suspect we always will, but that is ok. 

👍

9 hours ago, Houseplant said:

Haven't read the whole thread, but surely this is right? Anything else that can add to safety like flags is a good thing too. 

Absolutely, I don't think anyone has disagreed with that at all. 

[Scully]

On 23/09/2021 at 20:22, WalkedUp said:

Of course I do not condone a SxS or O/U being pointed at anyone, even if broken! Clearly that is just as bad, I would never suggest otherwise.

Please do not confuse my dislike of having a gun pointed at me with a dislike of semi autos. I love them. I used mine this morning. It is my favourite gun in the cabinet. It is just as dangerous as a SxS or O/U thus should never be pointed at anyone. 

Neither do I, but we all carry broken/unloaded shotguns on a days shooting, and there will often be a time during the course of the day when someones barrels sweep across the legs or feet of someone, but it doesn't matter because we know its empty ( or at least its broken ) and we can see it is.  

The person in question wasn't 'pointing' his gun at anyone, he was merely carrying an empty and safe shotgun, shown to be so by the flag in the breech. If it had been carried barrel down or barrel up,  the flag in the breech would always have been hidden to some.

Perhaps the way to go at clay grounds to keep everyone happy, is do away with gun racks and rule that guns must be slipped at all times until you're actually in the stand? 

On our little syndicate days the 'keeper announces that all guns must be slipped between drives, and then proceeds to be the only one who doesn't, having left his in his vehicle after the first drive. Season after season. We even bought him one once ( just a cheapie ) as a laugh, but it didn't sink in. 

On our rough shoot days we walk with loaded but broken guns, and autos and pumps are carried with mag's charged but an empty and open breech. It works well. 

This entire thread has been a storm in a tea cup, but there are simply those who are all too ready to criticise the way others do things because they do it differently. 

 

[Townie]

On 23/09/2021 at 15:05, London Best said:

at anyone

Kiu

[Townie]

1 minute ago, Townie said:

Kiu

Sorry, negligent discharge!

As the OP, I've read with interest and I think I could have put the scenario better.

I think the gun was safe because there was a flag in the breech, but my question was about the fact that I couldn't see that it was safe. The shooter was right handed and his arm blocked my view of the flag, so all I could see was a muzzle. From that point of view, I'd say the shooter was at fault - his gun wasn't obviously safe. 'Never never let your gun pointed be at anyone'.

[Scully]

24 minutes ago, Townie said:

Sorry, negligent discharge!

As the OP, I've read with interest and I think I could have put the scenario better.

I think the gun was safe because there was a flag in the breech, but my question was about the fact that I couldn't see that it was safe. The shooter was right handed and his arm blocked my view of the flag, so all I could see was a muzzle. From that point of view, I'd say the shooter was at fault - his gun wasn't obviously safe. 'Never never let your gun pointed be at anyone'.

The thing is, as I’ve pointed out, there would never be a time when the gun could clearly be seen to be safe by everyone. If you were stood on his left you wouldn’t be able to see the flag either. 
I see dozens of muzzles at clay grounds and the only way to avoid that is to keep all guns in their slips, then we’ll just have to take it on trust ( like we always do ) that no one has left a cartridge in there. 🙂

[ordnance]

A firearm should be carried and treated as loaded at all times, breach flag or not IMO.

[WalkedUp]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Neither do I, but we all carry broken/unloaded shotguns on a days shooting, and there will often be a time during the course of the day when someones barrels sweep across the legs or feet of someone, but it doesn't matter because we know its empty ( or at least its broken ) and we can see it is.  

The person in question wasn't 'pointing' his gun at anyone, he was merely carrying an empty and safe shotgun, shown to be so by the flag in the breech. If it had been carried barrel down or barrel up,  the flag in the breech would always have been hidden to some.

Perhaps the way to go at clay grounds to keep everyone happy, is do away with gun racks and rule that guns must be slipped at all times until you're actually in the stand? 

On our little syndicate days the 'keeper announces that all guns must be slipped between drives, and then proceeds to be the only one who doesn't, having left his in his vehicle after the first drive. Season after season. We even bought him one once ( just a cheapie ) as a laugh, but it didn't sink in. 

On our rough shoot days we walk with loaded but broken guns, and autos and pumps are carried with mag's charged but an empty and open breech. It works well. 

This entire thread has been a storm in a tea cup, but there are simply those who are all too ready to criticise the way others do things because they do it differently. 

 

I agree with all you said. But on a clay or game shoot if the guns are carried but slipped they should still point up into the sky or down into the earth, loaded or unloaded. 

[Scully]

24 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I agree with all you said. But on a clay or game shoot if the guns are carried but slipped they should still point up into the sky or down into the earth, loaded or unloaded. 

When carried conventionally yes, but aside from the fact slipped guns should never be loaded, they are swung about, slewed around and generally flung onto back seats, bonnets, tailgates, piled into beaters wagons and quad bikes and anywhere else you can think of, including propped up at ‘Tiffin time’. 🙂
We just take it for granted no one has left a cartridge in there. 
There comes a time when we simply have to trust others, and the frequency with which shooting accidents happen proves the vast majority are trustworthy. 

[Jim Neal]

On 23/09/2021 at 23:10, Houseplant said:

Haven't read the whole thread

Go on, it's a cracker!

[Townie]

On 26/09/2021 at 17:15, Scully said:

The thing is, as I’ve pointed out, there would never be a time when the gun could clearly be seen to be safe by everyone. If you were stood on his left you wouldn’t be able to see the flag either. 
I see dozens of muzzles at clay grounds and the only way to avoid that is to keep all guns in their slips, then we’ll just have to take it on trust ( like we always do ) that no one has left a cartridge in there. 🙂

Made me think! On a driven day, when a drive finishes, I of course unload immediately. This involves moving the muzzles from pointing upwards to downwards and even though  my finger is not on the trigger and I'm moving the top lever while doing so, there's a point at which a beater could see muzzles for a split second.
 

I think you're right. We need to trust people and point out unsafe practices when we see them.