Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

It really has run its course don’t you think? 

Oh I don't know, I'm just warming up 🤣

Besides Mungler hasn't earned enough Z points yet for the Defender of Ukraine medal. 

Here's one for those who keep repeating how Iraq and afghan are irrelevant to Ukraine. 

How come the US can invade pretty much whoever it wants, for any made up reason it fancies, go against UN resolutions, and build up a civilian body count Hitler would be proud of, but everyone loses their virtue signalling minds when Russia does it? 

Asking for a friend. 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

Wow

3900 posts over 155 pages and both sides still opposing each other. 

What ever happened to the old saying ‘agree to disagree’. 
 

It really has run its course don’t you think? 

Nobody's making you click into it. :-)

[Mungler]

31 minutes ago, treetree said:

OK, for relevance how about the Yemen-Saudi Arabia conflict, or Armenia-Azerbaijan. These are both happening now.

Where is your outrage? Where are your demands for support? Where is your condemnation the aggressor? Why aren't you insisting we send billions in weapons to Yemen?

Your moral outrage seems very selective; where was it for the above conflicts  or when the Ukrainian army was shelling the Donbass since 2014?

 

 

So, no one can be outraged at Russia invading Ukraine and starting a war on mainland Europe, unless they have demonstrated earlier equivalent outrage for other wars and conflicts across the globe.

What is wrong with you? 

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Oh I don't know, I'm just warming up 🤣

Besides Mungler hasn't earned enough Z points yet for the Defender of Ukraine medal. 

Here's one for those who keep repeating how Iraq and afghan are irrelevant to Ukraine. 

How come the US can invade pretty much whoever it wants, for any made up reason it fancies, go against UN resolutions, and build up a civilian body count Hitler would be proud of, but everyone loses their virtue signalling minds when Russia does it? 

Asking for a friend. 

Blimey, more ‘look back there’ and ‘look over there’.

The reason the shills don’t want to look at the here and now of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (and the subsequent and on going mass murder and torture of the Ukrainian population) is because it’s really awful, morally reprehensible and indefensible.

Crack on with the ‘look, what about over there’. It’s what the Kremlin pay you for, right? 😆

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

So, no one can be outraged at Russia invading Ukraine and starting a war on mainland Europe, unless they have demonstrated earlier equivalent outrage for other wars and conflicts across the globe.

What is wrong with you? 

Blimey, more ‘look back there’ and ‘look over there’.

The reason the shills don’t want to look at the here and now of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (and the subsequent and on going mass murder and torture of the Ukrainian population) is because it’s really awful, morally reprehensible and indefensible.

Crack on with the ‘look, what about over there’. It’s what the Kremlin pay you for, right? 😆

Why don't you try answering the question, instead of a load of waffle 🤣

Is it too hard? 

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Why don't you try answering the question, instead of a load of waffle 🤣

Is it too hard? 

That was my answer.

To suggest that no one can support Ukraine or be outraged at the Russian invasion unless an equivalence of outrage has been displayed for earlier wars / atrocities committed across the planet is bizarre and the strangest way of looking at the current invasion and widespread mass murder of a civilian population . You may sneer away - I made the case for the morality of Putin’s war about 100 pages back. 

Indeed, following the train of argument through, our hands tied and we are obliged to sit back and watch Putin rampage through whichever countries he chooses because errrrm we didn’t get sufficiently cross when the Chinese went into Tibet?

 

[Rewulf]

46 minutes ago, Mungler said:

That was my answer

What's wrong with asking why US invasions and atrocities don't matter, but Russian ones do? 

I don't see what the issue is, its a pretty simple question? 

[treetree]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Blair must be one of the most hated politicians ever to have led our country... He led us into an illegal war based on lies and is responsible for countless deaths.

Most people see this now, but did you think so at the time? For my own shame I remember beating the war drum, urging that we go to war. I bought into the lies sold to us by the politicians, the media and following the herd mentality. We can all look back now and see how we were conned; hundreds of thousands Iraqi civilians died, not to mention the British and US soldiers who also paid with their lives. All for US interest in their oil fields and to protect the dollar.

With that in mind, are you really sure that this conflict is all it appears, or rather all that they are telling you it is?

[Gordon R]

Quote

With that in mind, are you really sure that this conflict is all it appears, or rather all that they are telling you it is?

Standard get out of jail card, by some who think it was okay for Russia to invade.

For those who cite other conflicts and ask if others were as outraged, perhaps they could say what they have done about the other conflicts. Anything at all? 

[mchughcb]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

They’re nuts. They’re too far down the free thought rabbit warren where all tunnels lead to NATO and the US 😆

Did Putin explore all political avenues, was Russia under threat, were there other alternatives to starting an invasion and a war, did the Russians have to shell to rubble civilian targets, even as of today do the Russians have to shell power stations and attack civil infrastructure far behind the battle lines  - the list is obvious and long and you’ll get no sense off about 3 or 4 on here.

I still don’t think it is clear that Putin’s invasion was motivated by some spat inside Ukraine - it’s what a lot of people have alighted to after the event to make some sense of it, but that’s not what the Kremlin have been saying along the way. 

Some people are just a bit broken. 

 

I missed that part about your heating bills? How much is the government using other people's money to cover your heating bills?

[treetree]

7 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Ahh the old if only ukraine had complied then russia wouldn't have had to invade and start slaughtering the population of ukraine argument.

Which part of the Minsk agreement should they have taken exception to? Why could the Donbass not have been an autonomous region within Ukraine? What is unreasonable about Ukraine not joining NATO or hosting NATO military advisors, given that NATO is really just an instrument of US foreign policy.

Zelensky was elected on a mandate of finding a peaceful outcome. He was bullied out of that by the Azov thugs and other nationalists.

[mchughcb]

4 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Standard get out of jail card, by some who think it was okay for Russia to invade.

For those who cite other conflicts and ask if others were as outraged, perhaps they could say what they have done about the other conflicts. Anything at all? 

I remember getting a surcharge on my car license for the military operation in East Timor. It was the first time as a poor student that it hit home wars cost money and poor people who want nothing to do with it actually are least able to afford it.

What could I do nothing, but the next time a flogger tells me I need to support a war I've got nothing to do with I take a deep breathe 

[treetree]

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Standard get out of jail card, by some who think it was okay for Russia to invade.

Please show me where I have said it was OK. It was a deplorable act. It is possible to hold 2 parallel views on this; the invasion was deplorable but that there was provocation that led to it, not least US meddling

[mchughcb]

2 minutes ago, treetree said:

Which part of the Minsk agreement should they have taken exception to? Why could the Donbass not have been an autonomous region within Ukraine? What is unreasonable about Ukraine not joining NATO or hosting NATO military advisors, given that NATO is really just an instrument of US foreign policy.

Zelensky was elected on a mandate of finding a peaceful outcome. He was bullied out of that by the Azov thugs and other nationalists.

Yes, ending the conflict, and stamping out corruption.

Then the word got out rather than get back to the negotiations he amassed a nato trained force and was heading to donbass.

[treetree]

12 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

For those who cite other conflicts and ask if others were as outraged, perhaps they could say what they have done about the other conflicts. Anything at all? 

What I'm not doing in cheerleader from the sides, supporting actions that will lead to further needless loss of life and destruction. I suspect you are willing to 'fight' this war until the last drop of Ukrainian blood.

[welsh1]

11 minutes ago, treetree said:

Which part of the Minsk agreement should they have taken exception to? Why could the Donbass not have been an autonomous region within Ukraine? What is unreasonable about Ukraine not joining NATO or hosting NATO military advisors, given that NATO is really just an instrument of US foreign policy.

Zelensky was elected on a mandate of finding a peaceful outcome. He was bullied out of that by the Azov thugs and other nationalists.

So it's ok for Russia to invade ukraine and kill the people?

Russia should have nothing at all to so with Ukraine's internal affairs and has no legal reason to invade Ukraine .

Let Ukraine sort it's problems out.

 

Now Russia has laid waste to Ukraine, the rest of Europe has also to suffer fuel and food price rises/shortages.

An aggressive act of war from Russia led by a deranged fool.

If Ukraine had wanted to join NATO they were free to do so, it's not up to Russia it's up to Ukraine.

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

What I'm not doing in cheerleader from the sides, supporting actions that will lead to further needless loss of life and destruction. I suspect you are willing to 'fight' this war until the last drop of Ukrainian blood.

I asked about your actions concerning other conflicts. You have no answer, but the rather sad quote above.

[mchughcb]

2 hours ago, welsh1 said:

So it's ok for Russia to invade ukraine and kill the people?

Russia should have nothing at all to so with Ukraine's internal affairs and has no legal reason to invade Ukraine .

Let Ukraine sort it's problems out.

 

Now Russia has laid waste to Ukraine, the rest of Europe has also to suffer fuel and food price rises/shortages.

An aggressive act of war from Russia led by a deranged fool.

If Ukraine had wanted to join NATO they were free to do so, it's not up to Russia it's up to Ukraine.

 

It's unfortunate that the very countries that put sanctions on the country supplying food and energy are complaining that it is Russia's fault. China and India continue to buy energy and goods at cheap prices.

Much like blaming everything on Covid rather than the government actions that caused the economic meltdown. Which depends who you talk to was necessary to save the NHS or was a complete over reaction bloated scam.

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I asked about your actions concerning other conflicts. You have no answer, but the rather sad quote above.

Demanding answers from everyone again and complaining about the answer? Very strange behaviour.

[mchughcb]

7 hours ago, welsh1 said:

So if russia had not invaded ukraine all those ukranians would not have died would they?

Why should ukraine negotiate? they were invaded.

There was plenty of Russian speaking of Ukrainians dying already, bombed every day in the city before March. Ukrainian should negotiate for better terms before they face an unconditional surrender or dragged into a war that neither they or their allies can afford and eventually tun into a completely failed state like Somalia that nobody will support.

[mchughcb]

2 hours ago, welsh1 said:

So it's ok for Russia to invade ukraine and kill the people?

Russia should have nothing at all to so with Ukraine's internal affairs and has no legal reason to invade Ukraine .

Let Ukraine sort it's problems out.

 

Now Russia has laid waste to Ukraine, the rest of Europe has also to suffer fuel and food price rises/shortages.

An aggressive act of war from Russia led by a deranged fool.

If Ukraine had wanted to join NATO they were free to do so, it's not up to Russia it's up to Ukraine.

 

Russia was invited by the people who previously identified as Ukrainians to protect them.

Ukraine wants to join NATO, except NATO is not so ready to fast track membership them like Sweden. That tells you everything.

[mchughcb]

4 hours ago, treetree said:

What I'm not doing in cheerleader from the sides, supporting actions that will lead to further needless loss of life and destruction. I suspect you are willing to 'fight' this war until the last drop of Ukrainian blood.

Agreed.

Anybody who has seen waring parties with lawyers will understand there is a point if you don't agree there will nothing left and the lawyers are rich. Cue the military industrial complex.

[Mungler]

Once again all the Putin apologists overlook the autonomy of Ukraine. Indeed, having previously broken away from Russian control the Ukrainians are less than keen to return to being in the grip of Russia / Putin. Surely they are entitled to have those views, aims and desires, no?

The whole slant is ‘this is US / NATO war’ entirely overlooking the widespread support within the Ukraine to repel the Russian invaders.

Forget who is supplying who (we’ve just seen Iran supplying the Russians) this all ends tomorrow with either a Russian withdrawal or a Ukrainian acceptance of Russian occupation.

As long as the Ukrainian people have a choice and want to take action then I believe that is worthy of Western support.

What the Kremlin proxies have been fed is a diet of Russia Today telling them that the Ukraine is jammed full of pro Russian supporters, Zelensky is despised throughout Ukraine and that every Ukrainian man wishes to be rejoined with his Russian brothers.

What else have we been told on this thread? The Ukrainian army was to mutiny due to moral, Zelensky about to be deposed and this all over by June? It’s been written on this thread - check back.

That was 6 months ago and since then we’ve seen the reverse - poor Russian moral and significant Ukrainian gains.

What a mess. A mess the blame for which rests 100% at the door of the Kremlin.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Mungler

[welsh1]

4 hours ago, mchughcb said:

Russia was invited by the people who previously identified as Ukrainians to protect them.

Ukraine wants to join NATO, except NATO is not so ready to fast track membership them like Sweden. That tells you everything.

Are those the Ukrainian people who are being murdered by the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia? Russia is doing a great job of "protecting "them.

Do you actually read what you are posting?

Isn't it strange how the people Russia invaded to protect them are fighting and forcing Russia back out of their country.

 

Russia wasn't invited into Ukraine it invaded Ukraine and started to kill its population, and continues to do so, and is now targeting critical infrastructure, another illegal act of war.

 

As for NATO membership, do a bit of reading, maybe you won't seem so dim.

[henry d]

8 hours ago, treetree said:

Why could the Donbass not have been an autonomous region within Ukraine?

Because the law states that the whole country needed to vote on it, Donbass decided to have an illegal referendum.

Edited October 19, 2022 by henry d
Typo

[mchughcb]

4 minutes ago, henry d said:

Because the law stayed that the whole country needed to vote on it, Donbass decided to have an illegal referendum.

And for not accepting the overthrow of their elected government in 2014, the resistance must be crushed. If they vote to be autonomous it's against the illegal government and must be crushed. If they decided to join the Russian Federation they definitely must be crushed. Was the Donbass daily shelling Kiev for 8 years

[henry d]

You don't seem to want to go pre 14 do you? A section of pro Russian government,  including the premier does a u turn on an economic deal with the EU. The government is overthrown and Russia bumps up the price of gas by 80% 🤔