Steel v Lead

[Scully]

42 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

oh that’s ok then as politicians always know what’s best, and what has climate change got to do with it? i bet the carbon footprint for a tonne of steel shot is far greater than a tonne of lead shot.

 

It doesn’t matter what the carbon footprint of steel is, the argument ( agenda) against lead has been made. I’m led to believe that once steel shot ( or any steel ) rusts it is more detrimental to the environment than lead, so I’m sure those who have an agenda to pursue will get round to steel eventually. Little steps.

As for climate change, isn’t it claimed that the production of steel and the processing of lead causes damage to the environment? 

[rbrowning2]

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

It doesn’t matter what the carbon footprint of steel is, the argument ( agenda) against lead has been made. I’m led to believe that once steel shot ( or any steel ) rusts it is more detrimental to the environment than lead, so I’m sure those who have an agenda to pursue will get round to steel eventually. Little steps.

As for climate change, isn’t it claimed that the production of steel and the processing of lead causes damage to the environment? 

virtually all human activity causes damage to the environment.

[Scully]

12 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

virtually all human activity causes damage to the environment.

Yes, it does, and there’s also an agenda for that, hence the vegan campaign of which Packham is an avid fan and his latest campaign to get more vegetarian ( and therefore less meat ) meals into schools. I’ll leave you to guess why. 
There’s more than one way to skin a cat, and no one any longer has to campaign to ban shooting, they just need to make it both unacceptable and unethical, or even immoral, which is what climate change is based on…..the acceptability by society, of whatever, based on one’s agenda. 

[rbrowning2]

I think their are far far bigger issues for this country (and the world) to worry about than lead shot, so will continue to use it until forced to stop doing so and if we are pinning are hopes on saving the world by banning lead shot then god help us.

Steel shot can never be as effective as lead shot and is only being considered as the go to replacement as it is the cheapest option. The only shooting future generations will know will be via computer games.

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

I think their are far far bigger issues for this country (and the world) to worry about than lead shot, so will continue to use it until forced to stop doing so and if we are pinning are hopes on saving the world by banning lead shot then god help us.

Steel shot can never be as effective as lead shot and is only being considered as the go to replacement as it is the cheapest option. The only shooting future generations will know will be via computer games.

 

I do too, as do many others, and I will also continue to use it while I have the choice. No one is pinning their hopes on a lead ban saving the world, but like I said, it’s politics. We’re outnumbered, it’s that simple. 
I think you’ll be surprised as to just how effective steel can be, and I for one will never give up while shooting remains. I also think that the sub gauges will be catered to given time. 
There is an entire industry beavering away to cater to impending legislation. 

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I also think that the sub gauges will be catered to given time. 
There is an entire industry beavering away to cater to impending legislation. 

 

May not be that simple, on both accounts, biodegradable wads are not part of the lead ban within the U.K. or elsewhere, so we could end up polluting the countryside with plastic that will be around for hundreds of years, sub gauges are going to struggle with both steel shot performance and investment in biodegradable wads for a very limited demand.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/opinion/are-the-pillars-of-the-eus-lead-ammunition-ban-starting-to-crumble/

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Scully]

48 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

May not be that simple, on both accounts, biodegradable wads are not part of the lead ban within the U.K. or elsewhere, so we could end up polluting the countryside with plastic that will be around for hundreds of years, sub gauges are going to struggle with both steel shot performance and investment in biodegradable wads for a very limited demand.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/opinion/are-the-pillars-of-the-eus-lead-ammunition-ban-starting-to-crumble/

 

We won’t be polluting the countryside with plastic wads as the cartridge manufacturers have/are developing non plastic wads. You can say what you like about driven shooting, but the big estates and commercial shoots won’t tolerate their land being littered with plastic, hence eco wads. 

I tend to have a positive outlook rather than a negative, so I’m quite optimistic about the future of UK shooting. 

[Whitebridges]

I'd bet a good few quid that Bird flu' has kiiled a lot more birds than ingested lead shot since the 'fowling ban.

Most of the PW membership would expect such a "negative" comment from me as I absolutely hate the idea of moving away from using lead for shooting albeit in shotgun cartridges or bullet heads.

This world is in a mess, not least the United Kingdom. When I look at where banning lead shot is in terms of it's importance it's about number 376 in the pecking order. Simples. Don't get used to the idea we're all doomed because this is not the case.        

  

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

We won’t be polluting the countryside with plastic wads as the cartridge manufacturers have/are developing non plastic wads. You can say what you like about driven shooting, but the big estates and commercial shoots won’t tolerate their land being littered with plastic, hence eco wads. 

I tend to have a positive outlook rather than a negative, so I’m quite optimistic about the future of UK shooting. 

Really?

if you follow Ben Husthwaite then some interesting youtube comments re steel shot, eco biodegradable wads at a commercial shoot. 

Steel shot NO as fibre wads only, Biodegradable wads NO not allowed

And this at a high bird shoot.

Husthwaite gets his client brining down some monsters at Llecywddygarth. Different technique, hand speed and mount points were used to make today a successful day on some seriously high pheasants. Infield instruction by Ben Husthwaite on high game birds

Ignore the video and read the comments.

https://youtu.be/RIrxOTD-Ap4

Edited November 1, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Really?

if you follow Ben Husthwaite then some interesting youtube comments re steel shot, eco biodegradable wads at a commercial shoot. 

Steel shot NO as fibre wads only, Biodegradable wads NO not allowed

And this at a high bird shoot.

Husthwaite gets his client brining down some monsters at Llecywddygarth. Different technique, hand speed and mount points were used to make today a successful day on some seriously high pheasants. Infield instruction by Ben Husthwaite on high game birds

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, really. Warter Priory is an ‘extreme’ driven commercial bird shoot. They have banned lead shot and use steel shot throughout according to a Gamebore rep’ I was talking to the other weekend at Westlands. 
I don’t follow Ben Husthwaite. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Scully

[rbrowning2]

Clearly Llecywddygarth extreme/high bird shoot has not, cartridge reps are sales men 😊

Edited November 1, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Clearly Llecywddygarth extreme/high bird shoot has not, cartridge reps are sales men 😊

That’s entirely up to them, there is no requirement for them to do so. What does that prove? 
Yep, cartridge reps are salesmen. What does that prove? 

[nacnud]

Last season I tried some Eley VIP 28g #5 steel cartridges, unfortunately with plastic wads, they were “old” stock. I also had Eley VIP 28g #5 lead but with felt wads, putting both in my cartridge bag. I didn’t notice any difference in performance between them on partridge and pheasants, this through my Browning B25, which has open chokes in both barrels, about 7 thou choke in each barrel. I’ve shot Clays with steel shot and again noticed no difference in performance.

[rbrowning2]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

That’s entirely up to them, there is no requirement for them to do so. What does that prove? 
Yep, cartridge reps are salesmen. What does that prove? 

how do we really know what water priory guns were using? possibly some were using bismuth or tungsten based non toxic shot after all if you can afford to shoot at water priory then the extra cost of heavy tungsten based shot would probably not matter and give far better humane performance at extreme birds then any other type of shot.

However until/if the law changes given yes it is entirely up to us and where I shoot, I will continue to use fibre wad, lead shot through my guns, 12gauge and 28gauge as no requirement to sell the game on.

Edited November 2, 2022 by rbrowning2

[wymberley]

11 hours ago, nacnud said:

Last season I tried some Eley VIP 28g #5 steel cartridges, unfortunately with plastic wads, they were “old” stock. I also had Eley VIP 28g #5 lead but with felt wads, putting both in my cartridge bag. I didn’t notice any difference in performance between them on partridge and pheasants, this through my Browning B25, which has open chokes in both barrels, about 7 thou choke in each barrel. I’ve shot Clays with steel shot and again noticed no difference in performance.

Surely, that can only be because you were shooting at a range well below the actual capability of the lead.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

how do we really know what water priory guns were using? possibly some were using bismuth or tungsten based non toxic shot after all if you can afford to shoot at water priory then the extra cost of heavy tungsten based shot would probably not matter and give far better humane performance at extreme birds then any other type of shot.

However until/if the law changes given yes it is entirely up to us and where I shoot, I will continue to use fibre wad, lead shot through my guns, 12gauge and 28gauge as no requirement to sell the game on.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about something, but I’m not sure what it is you’re trying to prove? Indeed, guns at Warter Priory can shoot whatever they want, as long as it’s not lead, and that includes tungsten, bismuth and indeed steel. 
I will be shooting driven birds all this season with lead also, as like you, none of our birds are collected by a game dealer who specifies non toxic. 
None of any of that proves anything however, so what point is it you’re trying to make? 

[rbrowning2]

the point is we are having the virtues of steel shot rammed down are throats by the orgs and shooting press/media when it is inferior to lead, needs expensive biodegradable wads to be acceptable on mass.

When the decision to legally ban lead has yet to be made and the decision should be driven by science and risk rather than anti shooting agenda, given the industry creates lots of job and money for the economy.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

the point is we are having the virtues of steel shot rammed down are throats by the orgs and shooting press/media when it is inferior to lead, needs expensive biodegradable wads to be acceptable on mass.

When the decision to legally ban lead has yet to be made and the decision should be driven by science and risk rather than anti shooting agenda, given the industry creates lots of job and money for the economy.

You’re not getting it. No one is disagreeing with you, but it’s politics. We all know it’s a pile of 💩, but its nothing to do with science or risk and all to do with environmental driven agendas, a bandwagon upon which those who dislike what we do will happily jump for their own agenda. 
No one cares what you or I think; it’s a done deal and we just have to make the best of what we’re left with. 
Yes, the industry does create a lot of money for the economy, but it’s a rural economy, and urban economies dictate policy. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Scully

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

the point is we are having the virtues of steel shot rammed down are throats by the orgs and shooting press/media when it is inferior to lead, needs expensive biodegradable wads to be acceptable on mass.

When the decision to legally ban lead has yet to be made and the decision should be driven by science and risk rather than anti shooting agenda, given the industry creates lots of job and money for the economy.

This. And environmentally the energy used to get a ton of lead shot from ore in the ground to cartridge is tiny compared with the energy used to get a ton of steel shot from ore in the ground to cartridge.

[Scully]

43 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

This. And environmentally the energy used to get a ton of lead shot from ore in the ground to cartridge is tiny compared with the energy used to get a ton of steel shot from ore in the ground to cartridge.

Yep. Doesn’t bode well for shooting does it? Agendas. But for as long as we need steel, shooting may be a tad safer. Maybe. 

[rbrowning2]

https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-uk-reach-lead-ammunition-consultation/

29 minutes ago, Scully said:

Yep. Doesn’t bode well for shooting does it? Agendas. But for as long as we need steel, shooting may be a tad safer. Maybe. 

Assuming steel shot is manufactured in sufficient quantity to replace lead, which is not a given that it will be.

Edited November 2, 2022 by rbrowning2

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

You’re not getting it. No one is disagreeing with you, but it’s politics. We all know it’s a pile of 💩, but its nothing to do with science or risk and all to do with environmental driven agendas, a bandwagon upon which those who dislike what we do will happily jump for their own agenda. 
No one cares what you or I think; it’s a done deal and we just have to make the best of what we’re left with. 
Yes, the industry does create a lot of money for the economy, but it’s a rural economy, and urban economies dictate policy. 

indeed, but why should those who dislike shooting have anymore influence than us? it’s a democracy we live in is it not?
it may not be obvious to an outsider of shooting, but it’s not a done deal YET, what ever that deal will look like.

BASC response looks weak, to assume no legislation is need for live quarry shooting using shot just because of their voluntary transition and continue to allow lead for Clay shooting as nobody would use lead shot clay cartridges for live quarry is laughable. looks like they are suggesting a very limited ban on lead in rifle ammunition only. 
Possibly trying not to upset the CPSA, who only the other week suggested moving to a maximum lead shot load of 24gm so the clay cartridges will not be used for live quarry shooting.

The cliff edge is getting much closer, one thing is looking certain, shooting will decline going forward.

[Gas seal]

Shooters now have a choice of  non lead cartridges with different types of bio wads. We never had that in commercial cartridges before. Cardboard wads have been available for decades it’s nothing new. If lead cartridges are made illegal we have a choice use available non lead or stop shooting, wildflowers had the same choice with wildfowl and they are still shooting. Commercial shooting can look after themselves . I’ve seen a lot of changes in shooting over the years, including non lead for wildfowl, nothing so far has stopped me shooting. The cost of shooting will increase just the same as other sports and more people are watching what we are doing. I have noticed that (none lead ) is used more by manufacturers and others. 

[rbrowning2]

certainly can agree that the cost is increasing with steel shot and biodegradable wads these are £569.00 per 1000 at just cartridges. Don’t think of steel shot and biodegradable wads as a cheap option.
At what price does the average working person stop shooting? Or have we reached that already?

[Fellside]

34 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

certainly can agree that the cost is increasing with steel shot and biodegradable wads these are £569.00 per 1000 at just cartridges. Don’t think of steel shot and biodegradable wads as a cheap option.
At what price does the average working person stop shooting? Or have we reached that already?

I don’t think paying 56.9 p / steel cartridge compared to about 40p / lead equivalent will make a lot of difference to the overall cost of game shooting. 

I do take you’re point however that they are a silly price non the less. I think there is some commercial opportunism creeping in - re manufacturers inflating prices ahead of lead disappearing.