Silly survey about chips plus....

[enfieldspares]

Here's a silly survey about which ONE you'd save. Chips and what?

OTOH if you want to save LEAD SHOT you have only until 6 November to complete this survey:

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/restriction-proposals-004/consultation/intro/

Edited November 4, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Ultrastu]

Completed last week .

[Dougy]

I'm a tad confused on the estimated number of projectiles sold on the UK. If questions are being asked to supposedly save lead shot these these are just preposterous un answerable questions. 

 Curry sauce on my chips, and HP Brown sauce. 

[ditchman]

curry sauce and chips....(got to be proper chip shop curry with sultanas in it)

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Dougy said:

If questions are being asked to supposedly save lead shot these these are just preposterous un answerable questions. 

Agreed.  I spent some time trying to get my head around what was being asked that was of relevance - and not just guesses.  Gave up in the end.

[gmm243]

Chips,stuffing, peas and gravy for me but I have never seen it outside N Irelanf.

[enfieldspares]

Here's a summary of what I wrote. Do, if you wush, make use of any of it. I am disappointed that neither BASC nor CPSA saw the open door regarding my use of the Government's own law to push the case for #8 and #9 shot and one ounce shotgun slugs.

General Comments:

Nowhere has a study been done on the OTHER and yet easily ascertained environmental impact of the proposal that lead shot can be replaced by steel shot. Nowhere even though it could easily be done has anyone calculated the energy and C02 released to make iron ore into steel shot compared with the energy and C02 released to make lead ore into lead shot. Nowhere has note been made that scrap lead can easily and cheaply be made into lead shot - lead melts ad 600 degrees - compared to making scrap iron into lead shot. Additionally all current steel shot is made in the Chinese Peoples' Republic so the carbon footprint of the energy used to transport it to the UK must also be taken account of. Finally steel shot must be fired using plastic wads which...regardless of them being so called bio-degradable...are still made from plastic. Lead shot can be loaded with wads made from either plastic or fibre. Steel shot can only be loaded with wads made from plastic.

 

Small Calibre Bullets under 5.6mm and Large Calibre Bullets over 5.6mm:

For use in indoor ranges there would be a ricochet danger from a steel backstop with non lead .22LR aka .22 Rimfire bullets. Given that an indoor range is, be definition, "indoors" I see no good reason why the use of lead rimfire ammunition on indoor ranges should be prohibited. Indeed the same should apply to traditional outdoor ranges with a sand backstop. The ranges are designed that no bullet fired downrange goes anywhere except into the sand backstop and in fifty years of shooting I have never seen birds using sand backstops to obtain grit. This applies to all ranges in the UK with such sand backstops whether for smallbore rifle, fullbore rifle, muzzleloading rifle or, indeed, smallbore or fullbore handgun shooting.

 

Air Gun and Air Rifle Pellets:

I have shot air rifles with both lead and non-lead (tin) projectiles. Tin pellets do not perform as well nor....and this is most important...do they retain their muzzle velocity as well nor penetrate as well. This means that for use on live quarry they give a less clean kill and a less immediate kill. Tin pellets are less humane than lead pellets for shooting live quarry.

 

Shot Cartridges:

Steel shot cartridges manufactured in the USA are marked on the box "Not For Use in Damascus Barrel Guns". This is for the reason that such may damage the gun. And may additionally prove dangerous to the user and/or bystanders. The alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of damascus barrel guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive. 

 

The Proof Houses in the United Kingdom furthermore make a blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of post-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by post-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears). They do NOT make the blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of pre-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by pre-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears). 

 

Therefore in pre-1954 guns alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of pre-1954 guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive. 

 

There are also NO NON-LEAD CARTRIDGES for the rimfire vermin shotgun calibres of .22 Rimfire SHOT, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire SHOT nor for the centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" cartridge. Or for ANY pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre. 

 

A ban on non-lead shot would therefore be a de facto ban on the use of .22 Rimfire, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire and centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" shotguns. Or for ANY shotguns using pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre. By virtue of the much fewer numbers of cartridges in 16 Bore, 28 Bore and .410" Gauge that are loaded the price of such loaded with steel shot would render them almost "bespoke" loaded and so again so expensive as to be a de facto ban. 

 

Also ban on non lead shot would again render a de facto ban on the use of 12 Bore shotguns for shooting deer on enclosed land by the landowner under the "farmers' exemption" under the Deer Act. 

 

The legislation that banned fishing weights on basis of the danger or lead shot to waterfowl says this under UK GOV FRESHWATER FISHING RULES "You can only use lead weights if they're 0.06 grams or less or more than 28.35 grams. This means lead shot weight from size 14 to size 8 and lead weights over one ounce" has been accepted as posing no danger to waterfowl or other birds by ingestion. 

 

Therefore by the logic of that law the continued use of lead shot size 8 and size 9 shot commonly used in clay pigeon shooting and for some live quarry (and some vermin...rats..squirrels) should be continued to be allowed as should the use of lead projectiles of over one ounce in 12 Bore shotguns under the Deer Act under the "farmers' exemption".

 

Buy Back Scheme:

If a scheme is to be offered then the Buy Back must be at a fair value and not the less than satisfactory measures that were in place with the Buy Back after the 1996 Firearms Act scheme where the prices seemed to be taken from the magazine advertising of ONE gunshop the London Armoury Company owned by a George Staden. 

 

Indeed the Buy Back for shotgun cartridges should offer not the cost of what is being "bought back" but the cost of what is to replace it and if that replacement can only be cartridges loaded with bismuth shot - see my comments on page 4 - then the Buy Back compensation should be on that basis. 

 

There should also be compensation to cover the cost of converting fixed choke shotguns to the more open choke needed to use non-lead steel shot and, again, compensation for those removable choke tubes through which steel shot cannot be safely used.

 

Derogation for athletes:

There MUST be no derogation for a limited band, coterie, clique of individuals. This is not "Animal Farm" where "some animals are more equal than others" and if there is to be a ban then all must live under that same ban.

 

Cost for Adaptation of Existing Firearms:

The cost to open the choke, per barrel, of a shotgun so as to be able to use steel shot is now, in the trade, a minimum of £60 (per barrel). Figures from local gunsmiths to me are being quoted as "minimum charge of £90 regardless".

[ditchman]

9 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Here's a summary of what I wrote. Do, if you wush, make use of any of it. I am disappointed that neither BASC nor CPSA saw the open door regarding my use of the Government's own law to push the case for #8 and #9 shot and one ounce shotgun slugs.

General Comments:

Nowhere has a study been done on the OTHER and yet easily ascertained environmental impact of the proposal that lead shot can be replaced by steel shot. Nowhere even though it could easily be done has anyone calculated the energy and C02 released to make iron ore into steel shot compared with the energy and C02 released to make lead ore into lead shot. Nowhere has note been made that scrap lead can easily and cheaply be made into lead shot - lead melts ad 600 degrees - compared to making scrap iron into lead shot. Additionally all current steel shot is made in the Chinese Peoples' Republic so the carbon footprint of the energy used to transport it to the UK must also be taken account of. Finally steel shot must be fired using plastic wads which...regardless of them being so called bio-degradable...are still made from plastic. Lead shot can be loaded with wads made from either plastic or fibre. Steel shot can only be loaded with wads made from plastic.

 

Small Calibre Bullets under 5.6mm and Large Calibre Bullets over 5.6mm:

For use in indoor ranges there would be a ricochet danger from a steel backstop with non lead .22LR aka .22 Rimfire bullets. Given that an indoor range is, be definition, "indoors" I see no good reason why the use of lead rimfire ammunition on indoor ranges should be prohibited. Indeed the same should apply to traditional outdoor ranges with a sand backstop. The ranges are designed that no bullet fired downrange goes anywhere except into the sand backstop and in fifty years of shooting I have never seen birds using sand backstops to obtain grit. This applies to all ranges in the UK with such sand backstops whether for smallbore rifle, fullbore rifle, muzzleloading rifle or, indeed, smallbore or fullbore handgun shooting.

 

Air Gun and Air Rifle Pellets:

I have shot air rifles with both lead and non-lead (tin) projectiles. Tin pellets do not perform as well nor....and this is most important...do they retain their muzzle velocity as well nor penetrate as well. This means that for use on live quarry they give a less clean kill and a less immediate kill. Tin pellets are less humane than lead pellets for shooting live quarry.

 

Shot Cartridges:

Steel shot cartridges manufactured in the USA are marked on the box "Not For Use in Damascus Barrel Guns". This is for the reason that such may damage the gun. And may additionally prove dangerous to the user and/or bystanders. The alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of damascus barrel guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive. 

 

The Proof Houses in the United Kingdom furthermore make a blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of post-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by post-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears). They do NOT make the blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of pre-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by pre-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears). 

 

Therefore in pre-1954 guns alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of pre-1954 guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive. 

 

There are also NO NON-LEAD CARTRIDGES for the rimfire vermin shotgun calibres of .22 Rimfire SHOT, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire SHOT nor for the centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" cartridge. Or for ANY pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre. 

 

A ban on non-lead shot would therefore be a de facto ban on the use of .22 Rimfire, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire and centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" shotguns. Or for ANY shotguns using pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre. By virtue of the much fewer numbers of cartridges in 16 Bore, 28 Bore and .410" Gauge that are loaded the price of such loaded with steel shot would render them almost "bespoke" loaded and so again so expensive as to be a de facto ban. 

 

Also ban on non lead shot would again render a de facto ban on the use of 12 Bore shotguns for shooting deer on enclosed land by the landowner under the "farmers' exemption" under the Deer Act. 

 

The legislation that banned fishing weights on basis of the danger or lead shot to waterfowl says this under UK GOV FRESHWATER FISHING RULES "You can only use lead weights if they're 0.06 grams or less or more than 28.35 grams. This means lead shot weight from size 14 to size 8 and lead weights over one ounce" has been accepted as posing no danger to waterfowl or other birds by ingestion. 

 

Therefore by the logic of that law the continued use of lead shot size 8 and size 9 shot commonly used in clay pigeon shooting and for some live quarry (and some vermin...rats..squirrels) should be continued to be allowed as should the use of lead projectiles of over one ounce in 12 Bore shotguns under the Deer Act under the "farmers' exemption".

 

Buy Back Scheme:

If a scheme is to be offered then the Buy Back must be at a fair value and not the less than satisfactory measures that were in place with the Buy Back after the 1996 Firearms Act scheme where the prices seemed to be taken from the magazine advertising of ONE gunshop the London Armoury Company owned by a George Staden. 

 

Indeed the Buy Back for shotgun cartridges should offer not the cost of what is being "bought back" but the cost of what is to replace it and if that replacement can only be cartridges loaded with bismuth shot - see my comments on page 4 - then the Buy Back compensation should be on that basis. 

 

There should also be compensation to cover the cost of converting fixed choke shotguns to the more open choke needed to use non-lead steel shot and, again, compensation for those removable choke tubes through which steel shot cannot be safely used.

 

Derogation for athletes:

There MUST be no derogation for a limited band, coterie, clique of individuals. This is not "Animal Farm" where "some animals are more equal than others" and if there is to be a ban then all must live under that same ban.

 

Cost for Adaptation of Existing Firearms:

The cost to open the choke, per barrel, of a shotgun so as to be able to use steel shot is now, in the trade, a minimum of £60 (per barrel). Figures from local gunsmiths to me are being quoted as "minimum charge of £90 regardless".

yeah yeah yeah,,,,we know all that ..............BUT WHAT CHIPS DO YOU PREFER ????

[enfieldspares]

7 minutes ago, ditchman said:

yeah yeah yeah,,,,we know all that ..............BUT WHAT CHIPS DO YOU PREFER ????

Mushy peas and chips. Or if not with salt and vinegar!

[Diver One]

Tricky call

 Chips with salt vinegar and mayo

 

or the best option

 

chips and spicy curry sauce from Dawson's Chippy in Kirkham

[Scully]

20 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Here's a summary of what I wrote. Do, if you wush, make use of any of it. I am disappointed that neither BASC nor CPSA saw the open door regarding my use of the Government's own law to push the case for #8 and #9 shot and one ounce shotgun slugs.

General Comments:

Nowhere has a study been done on the OTHER and yet easily ascertained environmental impact of the proposal that lead shot can be replaced by steel shot. Nowhere even though it could easily be done has anyone calculated the energy and C02 released to make iron ore into steel shot compared with the energy and C02 released to make lead ore into lead shot. Nowhere has note been made that scrap lead can easily and cheaply be made into lead shot - lead melts ad 600 degrees - compared to making scrap iron into lead shot. Additionally all current steel shot is made in the Chinese Peoples' Republic so the carbon footprint of the energy used to transport it to the UK must also be taken account of. Finally steel shot must be fired using plastic wads which...regardless of them being so called bio-degradable...are still made from plastic. Lead shot can be loaded with wads made from either plastic or fibre. Steel shot can only be loaded with wads made from plastic.

 

Small Calibre Bullets under 5.6mm and Large Calibre Bullets over 5.6mm:

For use in indoor ranges there would be a ricochet danger from a steel backstop with non lead .22LR aka .22 Rimfire bullets. Given that an indoor range is, be definition, "indoors" I see no good reason why the use of lead rimfire ammunition on indoor ranges should be prohibited. Indeed the same should apply to traditional outdoor ranges with a sand backstop. The ranges are designed that no bullet fired downrange goes anywhere except into the sand backstop and in fifty years of shooting I have never seen birds using sand backstops to obtain grit. This applies to all ranges in the UK with such sand backstops whether for smallbore rifle, fullbore rifle, muzzleloading rifle or, indeed, smallbore or fullbore handgun shooting.

 

Air Gun and Air Rifle Pellets:

I have shot air rifles with both lead and non-lead (tin) projectiles. Tin pellets do not perform as well nor....and this is most important...do they retain their muzzle velocity as well nor penetrate as well. This means that for use on live quarry they give a less clean kill and a less immediate kill. Tin pellets are less humane than lead pellets for shooting live quarry.

 

Shot Cartridges:

Steel shot cartridges manufactured in the USA are marked on the box "Not For Use in Damascus Barrel Guns". This is for the reason that such may damage the gun. And may additionally prove dangerous to the user and/or bystanders. The alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of damascus barrel guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive. 

 

The Proof Houses in the United Kingdom furthermore make a blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of post-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by post-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears). They do NOT make the blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of pre-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by pre-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears). 

 

Therefore in pre-1954 guns alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of pre-1954 guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive. 

 

There are also NO NON-LEAD CARTRIDGES for the rimfire vermin shotgun calibres of .22 Rimfire SHOT, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire SHOT nor for the centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" cartridge. Or for ANY pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre. 

 

A ban on non-lead shot would therefore be a de facto ban on the use of .22 Rimfire, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire and centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" shotguns. Or for ANY shotguns using pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre. By virtue of the much fewer numbers of cartridges in 16 Bore, 28 Bore and .410" Gauge that are loaded the price of such loaded with steel shot would render them almost "bespoke" loaded and so again so expensive as to be a de facto ban. 

 

Also ban on non lead shot would again render a de facto ban on the use of 12 Bore shotguns for shooting deer on enclosed land by the landowner under the "farmers' exemption" under the Deer Act. 

 

The legislation that banned fishing weights on basis of the danger or lead shot to waterfowl says this under UK GOV FRESHWATER FISHING RULES "You can only use lead weights if they're 0.06 grams or less or more than 28.35 grams. This means lead shot weight from size 14 to size 8 and lead weights over one ounce" has been accepted as posing no danger to waterfowl or other birds by ingestion. 

 

Therefore by the logic of that law the continued use of lead shot size 8 and size 9 shot commonly used in clay pigeon shooting and for some live quarry (and some vermin...rats..squirrels) should be continued to be allowed as should the use of lead projectiles of over one ounce in 12 Bore shotguns under the Deer Act under the "farmers' exemption".

 

Buy Back Scheme:

If a scheme is to be offered then the Buy Back must be at a fair value and not the less than satisfactory measures that were in place with the Buy Back after the 1996 Firearms Act scheme where the prices seemed to be taken from the magazine advertising of ONE gunshop the London Armoury Company owned by a George Staden. 

 

Indeed the Buy Back for shotgun cartridges should offer not the cost of what is being "bought back" but the cost of what is to replace it and if that replacement can only be cartridges loaded with bismuth shot - see my comments on page 4 - then the Buy Back compensation should be on that basis. 

 

There should also be compensation to cover the cost of converting fixed choke shotguns to the more open choke needed to use non-lead steel shot and, again, compensation for those removable choke tubes through which steel shot cannot be safely used.

 

Derogation for athletes:

There MUST be no derogation for a limited band, coterie, clique of individuals. This is not "Animal Farm" where "some animals are more equal than others" and if there is to be a ban then all must live under that same ban.

 

Cost for Adaptation of Existing Firearms:

The cost to open the choke, per barrel, of a shotgun so as to be able to use steel shot is now, in the trade, a minimum of £60 (per barrel). Figures from local gunsmiths to me are being quoted as "minimum charge of £90 regardless".

Despite your first paragraph making the case for a total ban on steel shot 🙂 ( which I think is possibly already in its embryonic stage, and for the same reasons as lead ) I’d agree with much of what you posted. 

I can’t recall now what I wrote in the comments section, but it was broadly similar in tone and content as yours. I too think there should be no derogation for ‘athletes’, and I also agree with JohnfromUK regarding the almost incomprehensible irrelevance of some of the questions. I stuck it out however, for what good it’ll do. 
There will be no compensation for anything however, because alternatives are available; the price of those alternatives or their effectiveness are irrelevant. 
Edited to add: chips and curry sauce. 👍
 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Scully