BASC calls for independent regulatory body for firearms licensing

[Newbie to this]

My take on BASC's call for a voluntary ban on Lead is simple. They are a membership organisation, and should have consulted their membership, put their case forward, and respected whatever the membership decided.

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

My take on BASC's call for a voluntary ban on Lead is simple. They are a membership organisation, and should have consulted their membership, put their case forward, and respected whatever the membership decided.

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[Graham M]

I well remember a time many years ago now, when the country decided to have a "National Pigeon shooting day" sometime in February I think. 

BASC certainly made sure that they had the time and inclination to contact the media then, in order to call the National shooting day a "Crass" idea.

The fallout on pigeon shooters was enormous and we found ourselves having to try to justify pigeon shooting and crop control to a vociferous media intent on vilifying all shooters.

Had BASC not drawn the attention of this day to the press, nothing would have been known about it and we would have just carried on with our shooting, and our little National pigeon shooting day would have gone ahead without any one in the media knowing anything about it.

BASC seem to have an almost pious way of trying to make themselves look above the ordinary shooter, whilst at the same time trying to ingratiate their way into government by claiming to be against lead.............but not against lead when the SHTF and shooters start asking what the hell they are playing at.

You cannot throw shooters under the bus and then claim that you helped them by calling an ambulance.

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Graham M said:

I well remember a time many years ago now, when the country decided to have a "National Pigeon shooting day" sometime in February I think. 

BASC certainly made sure that they had the time and inclination to contact the media then, in order to call the National shooting day a "Crass" idea.

The fallout on pigeon shooters was enormous and we found ourselves having to try to justify pigeon shooting and crop control to a vociferous media intent on vilifying all shooters.

Had BASC not drawn the attention of this day to the press, nothing would have been known about it and we would have just carried on with our shooting, and our little National pigeon shooting day would have gone ahead without any one in the media knowing anything about it.

BASC seem to have an almost pious way of trying to make themselves look above the ordinary shooter, whilst at the same time trying to ingratiate their way into government by claiming to be against lead.............but not against lead when the SHTF and shooters start asking what the hell they are playing at.

You cannot throw shooters under the bus and then claim that you helped them by calling an ambulance.

National Pigeon Day? I havent seen a post on that old chestnut for many years and the story gets further embellished at every retelling. 

The truth is that its thanks to BASC negotiating exemptions from EU law over 30 years ago that we are able to shoot wood pigeon all year around in the UK under general licences, which is very different to the situation in most countries of mainland Europe. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

17 hours ago, GHE said:

As I suggested earlier, it would be good if you addressed one topic at a time rather than practice your distraction skills by going off at a tangent. And, as I pointed out earlier, I don't have the time, resources or inclination to trawl through hundreds of earlier posts just to prove a point.

 

I hate to be pendantic here, but your English has let you down again.  It's actually Hear Hear, a corruption of the original  Hear Him, not here here.

 

Agreed. And I fully accept that BASC are pretty much damned if they do and damned if they don't, but it's the position that they chose to adopt by claiming to be the voice of shooting. And, whilst I don't want to insult BASC by mentioning their name in the same sentence as the infamous Gun Control Network, I do think it's sad that the tiny and fanatical Gun Control Network is highly successful at getting themselves interviewed and featured in the media, and BASC isn't.

I'm not at troll and I don't believe that I am either negative or pessimistic. If anything, I'm apathetic, in that I feel that BASC (and the other shooting organisations) are just a waste of both time and membership fees.

Do you still maintain your assertion that BASC supported airgun licensing in Scotland despite evidence to the contrary? Regardless of some mythical post from a BASC rep a decade ago that you claim as the basis for your incorrect statement. No DM from you either?

[GHE]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Do you still maintain your assertion that BASC supported airgun licensing in Scotland despite evidence to the contrary? Regardless of some mythical post from a BASC rep a decade ago that you claim as the basis for your incorrect statement. No DM from you either?

You're flogging a dead horse here, I've already made it clear to you that I'm not going to change my opinion of BASC (or of the other shooting organisations) and I've also made it clear that I have better things to do with my time than carry out a lot of historical research in order to prove a point that you, as a paid employee of BASC, will refute anyway.

So, as far as I'm concerned, this matter is closed. But that doesn't prevent you from addressing the other points that I made about the poor communications and the failure to promote the shooting agenda to the general public effectively . . .

[neutron619]

3 hours ago, GHE said:

You're flogging a dead horse here, I've already made it clear to you that I'm not going to change my opinion of BASC

For goodness' sake man - he doesn't care about changing your opinion, but he, I and clearly some others care about the fact that you've made libellous comments about the organization and haven't had the decency (or frankly, the sense of honour) to stand up and admit you were wrong when presented with the evidence.

I agree with lots of the comments on both sides here and even some of yours, but you're doing yourself no favours in the eyes of interested observers like myself if you can't admit that he's called your bluff on that one.

I'd also like to see better communication from BASC, a less equivocal stance on lead and I've long thought that for what started out as a wildfowling organization, there seems to be rather a lot of "all right Jack" with the "300-bird day" / "20000 acres of stalking ground" types who clearly aren't the majority.

All the that doesn't mean they aren't making a positive difference somewhere, sometimes, though and I also get fed up of the BASC bashing here. It achieves nothing since, as you say, no-one will change their opinion. Rather just generates bad feeling and ill will on both sides because a handful of people here take anything less than total success as indicative of some kind of malicious intent.

Remember that we are essentially in an ideological war with other groups who think differently to us where sometimes we (collectively) win a battle and sometimes we lose. What I personally care about is that I can carry on shooting somehow and that everyone else who wants to, whether target, stalking, pigeons, muzzle loaders, big driven shoots or whatever can do so likewise. What I care about even more than that is that my kids and (one day!) grandkids get to do the same. If the choice is between losing lead and losing shooting full stop, I know which I'd pick.

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Edited February 11, 2023 by neutron619

[Graham M]

7 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

National Pigeon Day? I havent seen a post on that old chestnut for many years and the story gets further embellished at every retelling. 

The truth is that its thanks to BASC negotiating exemptions from EU law over 30 years ago that we are able to shoot wood pigeon all year around in the UK under general licences, which is very different to the situation in most countries of mainland Europe. 

You are missing the point entirely (and deliberately) And yes I was there so no embellishment is needed. Good God man, at least Mike Everieigh had the decency to actually apologise on this site for that balls-up. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

The truth is that its thanks to BASC negotiating exemptions from EU law over 30 years ago that we are able to shoot wood pigeon all year around in the UK under general licences, which is very different to the situation in most countries of mainland Europe. 

Conor O'Gorman - did BASC contact the media or not? If they did, why?

[Conor O'Gorman]

One topic at a time please. I can come onto the next queries about lead shot, then national pigeon day, then BASC communications once the outstanding query about airgun licensing in Scotland has been resolved by @GHE

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 11/02/2023 at 19:33, neutron619 said:

For goodness' sake man - he doesn't care about changing your opinion, but he, I and clearly some others care about the fact that you've made libellous comments about the organization and haven't had the decency (or frankly, the sense of honour) to stand up and admit you were wrong when presented with the evidence.

I agree with lots of the comments on both sides here and even some of yours, but you're doing yourself no favours in the eyes of interested observers like myself if you can't admit that he's called your bluff on that one.

I'd also like to see better communication from BASC, a less equivocal stance on lead and I've long thought that for what started out as a wildfowling organization, there seems to be rather a lot of "all right Jack" with the "300-bird day" / "20000 acres of stalking ground" types who clearly aren't the majority.

All the that doesn't mean they aren't making a positive difference somewhere, sometimes, though and I also get fed up of the BASC bashing here. It achieves nothing since, as you say, no-one will change their opinion. Rather just generates bad feeling and ill will on both sides because a handful of people here take anything less than total success as indicative of some kind of malicious intent.

Remember that we are essentially in an ideological war with other groups who think differently to us where sometimes we (collectively) win a battle and sometimes we lose. What I personally care about is that I can carry on shooting somehow and that everyone else who wants to, whether target, stalking, pigeons, muzzle loaders, big driven shoots or whatever can do so likewise. What I care about even more than that is that my kids and (one day!) grandkids get to do the same. If the choice is between losing lead and losing shooting full stop, I know which I'd pick.

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Thank you for the balanced comments. That's good of you to take the time to post this.

[GHE]

25 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

One topic at a time please. I can come onto the next queries about lead shot, then national pigeon day, then BASC communications once the outstanding query about airgun licensing in Scotland has been resolved by @GHE

I made it clear to you on  Thursday at 16:24 that I wasn’t going to spend any more time on this point.

That obviously wasn’t clear enough for you, so I repeated it on  Friday at 21:38.

You came back yet again, so I repeated it yet again on Saturday at 15:43.

What part of any of these posts are unclear to you?

I think that it's obvious that you’re just using the distraction technique that failed before, trying to cloud the issue by changing the subject. This is a common technique with politicians, but I expect a shooting organisation to behave better.

It seems to me that you are deliberately avoiding the issues of poor communication, BASC’s activities on lead shot and National Pigeon Day, but please feel free to prove me wrong by addressing those concerns.

[harkom]

17 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Hmmm? .....and where does incompetence or double standards come?

[Conor O'Gorman]

@GHE perhaps we could achieve closure regarding your comments about BASC's opposition to airgun licensing in Scotland by discussing on the phone? If that is of interest please DM me or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 

[GHE]

24 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@GHE perhaps we could achieve closure regarding your comments about BASC's opposition to airgun licensing in Scotland by discussing on the phone? If that is of interest please DM me or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 

No, for the fourth time I am not going to discuss BASC's alleged opposition to airgun licencing in Scotland.

But, once again, please feel free to answer the unanswered questions about non-lead shot, poor communication and National Pigeon day, and especially non-lead shot, which is a current concern.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@GHE perhaps we could achieve closure regarding your comments about BASC's opposition to airgun licensing in Scotland by discussing on the phone? If that is of interest please DM me or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 

Does that offer extend to others regarding other questions raised in this thread you’re avoiding answering, such as BASC’s claims it opposes a lead ban despite its issued statements to the contrary, and a reply to the ‘national pigeon day’? 
 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Conor O'Gorman - did BASC contact the media or not? If they did, why?

Any chance of an answer. Not complicated.

[Rewulf]

Awkward 😂

[Conor O'Gorman]

@GHE I appreciate you believe otherwise but the clear evidence is that BASC opposed airgun licensing in Scotland and I don't see us making any progress on this so moving forward to the next topics raised...

National pigeon day - Shooting Times promoted the national pigeon day in 2000 and that is why it was picked up by the national press. 

BASC fighting the HSE lead ban proposals - latest update here: https://basc.org.uk/uk-reach-where-are-we-now/

BASC communications - every Wednesday we email updates on current issues - this is free and anyone can sign up to it: https://basc.org.uk/basc-live/

[Gordon R]

Quote

Conor O'Gorman - did BASC contact the media or not? If they did, why?

I note that you have posted, but ignored the question. Any chance of an answer. Not complicated.

[Penelope]

On 10/02/2023 at 21:38, GHE said:

Gun Control Network is highly successful at getting themselves interviewed and featured in the media, and BASC isn't.

More to do with the media's choices and agenda than BASC, I expect.

[David BASC]

Gordon R

For clarity, it was The Times that carried the headline in early 2000 'Gamekeeper's to slaughter 1000000 birds'

Yes BASC contacted the media after this not just the Times, but also the Independent who were planning on running the story, and a total of 15 newspapers, radio and TV stations asking them not to publish stuff like this, as it could be damaging to the General licences, that were only, at the time 7 years old.

 

[GHE]

13 minutes ago, Penelope said:

More to do with the media's choices and agenda than BASC, I expect.

You may be right, and I fully accept that the media are sometimes far too interested in the wild statements made by extremist pressure groups than in solid information from reputable sources, but the fact of the matter is that The Gun Control Network seems to be far more successful than any of our shooting organisations in promoting their agenda.

The shooting organisations seem to me to be reactive rather than proactive, and they also seem to be incestuous, preaching to their own choir rather than reaching out and trying to educate the wider public.

It can be argued that it's much easier for tiny, agile and extreme-view organisations to adopt a high public profile but look at the RSPCA, a large and (in my view) totally useless organisation - they are extremely good at promoting their cause in the media, and the public always sees and hears their viewpoint whenever there is publicity to be gained. Why can't our shooting organisations be as proactive and visible?

I'm not suggesting that BASC should copy the RSPCA in all areas, far from it, but in my view they have adopted a similar policy for many years, trying to be friends with the Government and trying to become the governments' source of all knowledge and expertise on all matters shooting and conservation. This makes sense up to a point, but their true role should be representing the interests of its members, not simply trying to slow down the march of further restrictions.

5 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Gordon R

For clarity, it was The Times that carried the headline in early 2000 'Gamekeeper's to slaughter 1000000 birds'

Yes BASC contacted the media after this not just the Times, but also the Independent who were planning on running the story, and a total of 15 newspapers, radio and TV stations asking them not to publish stuff like this, as it could be damaging to the General licences, that were only, at the time 7 years old.

 

Are you saying that there was a total of just 15 newspapers, radio and TV stations at that time?

[David BASC]

No, more than that , but those we contacted were, based on the information we had at the time, planning on doing running a story based on what the Times had published, consequently, apart from a couple of radio interviews over the following couple of weeks, this did not get much traction in the media.

Lets face it, gamekeepers are some of the best custodians and conservationists in the country, and we were concerned that if statements like that published further it could do harm to the image of the profession.

[Rewulf]

Kudos to David for answering the question that Conor wouldnt (for some reason)