NHS

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

So the Tax payer should just foot the bill 

It’s hardly Breaking news is it? Tax payers fund public services. 

What’s wrong with that? Why would they not foot the bill? NHS staff and the trust pay a contribution to the cost of the fund but it is paid out by the Exchequer. 

Who do you think pays the pensions of soldiers? The armed forces pension is noted to be one of the best pensions you could ever get. 
 

Members pay 0% contribution. It’s a defined benefit scheme, and there’s no pot either, it’s entirely funded by the public purse. 
 

MP’s pensions are funded by the Public purse. 
 

Police pensions are backed and funded by the Government. Although Police officers pay a hefty contribution to the scheme from their salaries. 
 

Surprise surprise … firemen’s pensions are a defined benefit scheme … there is also no pot… 

 

Teachers are on a defined benefit scheme … back by the Government (DoE). 

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

Tax payers fund public services. 

This isn't funding a public service, this is funding someone's gross incompetence.

They should only get what the pension matures into. If their employer has failed to invest their pension successfully, hard luck.

Same as with any private pension.

They want equality with the private sector with pay etc. But still expect the public sector benefits funded by the tax payer.

Cake and eat it come to mind.

[Mungler]

What’s the cost of the NHS each year? £200 billion (ball park) and they reckon that’s a cost per man, woman and child of between £2,000 and £3,000.

And bear in mind the number of people actually working / who are productive in the economy and who actually put into government coffers and who don’t take out or are a net drain (that’s 50% of the population). 

So, we give the NHS another £100 billion and spend £300 billion each year. And what do we think will change? Will we all live to a 110 years old and never face a queue or a wait to see a GP?

We just can’t afford the NHS in its current shape and form and it’s time to start again.

 

[old man]

14 hours ago, Mungler said:

When is enough money, enough money?

When can we objectively look at the NHS and properly weigh up if we’re getting any value - comparative costs of other systems in other countries, our own life expectancies and so on.

Anyone I know whose had treatment in France / Italy / Portugal under a hybrid system where the state pays the lions share and the patient makes a contribution can’t but help pass comment on how the queue was shorter, the hospital newer / cleaner and the treatment better. 

I can see us just tipping more money into the NHS leaky bucket and expecting some sort of change or better service. What did Einstein say about the definition of madness?

There seemed to be an opinion he was a bit crackers?

I'm just pleased to see that he is able to be on the TV adverts now about smart meters  and is spouting the same old garb? 😆

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

This isn't funding a public service, this is funding someone's gross incompetence.

They should only get what the pension matures into. If their employer has failed to invest their pension successfully, hard luck.

Same as with any private pension.

They want equality with the private sector with pay etc. But still expect the public sector benefits funded by the tax payer.

Cake and eat it come to mind.

If you have a defined benefits pension, there is no pot. 
 

If it’s so fantastic to work in the NHS / public sector, why do we have so many vacancies? 
 

Why are people not throwing down their tools and rushing to work in the Hospitals and the council’s? 
 

No one is saying the pension isn’t fantastic compared to most schemes … but you can’t pay your current mortgage or bills with your pensions you may get in 30-40 years if you live long enough to see it. 
 

Public sector pay was frozen from 2011 - 2013, then capped at 1% annually until 2018. 
 

From 2020 - 2022 public sector pay went up 2.7%, private sector pay went up 6.9% (ONS). 
 

I know lots of people personally who’ve given up “good” jobs in the NHS, in the Police and in Social Services to go into the private sector. 
 

I don’t think I know anyone who has done the reverse. 

[Charliedog]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

If you have a defined benefits pension, there is no pot. 
 

If it’s so fantastic to work in the NHS / public sector, why do we have so many vacancies? 
 

Why are people not throwing down their tools and rushing to work in the Hospitals and the council’s? 
 

No one is saying the pension isn’t fantastic compared to most schemes … but you can’t pay your current mortgage or bills with your pensions you may get in 30-40 years if you live long enough to see it. 
 

Public sector pay was frozen from 2011 - 2013, then capped at 1% annually until 2018. 
 

From 2020 - 2022 public sector pay went up 2.7%, private sector pay went up 6.9% (ONS). 
 

I know lots of people personally who’ve given up “good” jobs in the NHS, in the Police and in Social Services to go into the private sector. 
 

I don’t think I know anyone who has done the reverse. 

I slightly disagree, I have a defined pension and there very much is a pot with trustees and annual statements, the contributions are invested accross a range of portfolios and managed, admit the company would have to make up any shortfall if it occurred but it massively offsetts the contribution the company has to make, I honestly cannot believe any defined benefit scheme does not have similar to a degree.

[Vince Green]

19 minutes ago, Charliedog said:

I slightly disagree, I have a defined pension and there very much is a pot with trustees and annual statements, the contributions are invested accross a range of portfolios and managed, admit the company would have to make up any shortfall if it occurred but it massively offsetts the contribution the company has to make, I honestly cannot believe any defined benefit scheme does not have similar to a degree.

So do I have a defined benefit (final salary) pension. My employer invested our contributions and managed the scheme with trustees. That worked out OK 

The fact that the NHS failed to do so is an inditement because now we are paying these peoples pensions

[Lloyd90]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

So do I have a defined benefit (final salary) pension. My employer invested our contributions and managed the scheme with trustees. That worked out OK 

The fact that the NHS failed to do so is an inditement because now we are paying these peoples pensions

The Employees contributions pay towards them (So the workers money), as do the trusts to a set amount (Government money), and the Government then guaranteed the amount to make up any extra needed (Government money). 

[udderlyoffroad]

31 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Government money

No such animal; tax-payer's money.

[Lloyd90]

11 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

No such animal; tax-payer's money.

Yes, same thing. 

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

The Employees contributions pay towards them

That's a ponsi scheme, technically illegal in this country. They can't use your pension contribution to pay somebody else's pension. Otherwise how do they pay your pension when the time comes?

But the pensions are index linked so even in years when the workers have had no pay increase the pensions still get increased by what ever index it is linked to

Edited February 9, 2023 by Vince Green

[Lloyd90]

28 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

That's a ponsi scheme, technically illegal in this country. They can't use your pension contribution to pay somebody else's pension. 

Well it appears that’s what they are doing … pension contributions go towards the cost apparently (unless I have read it wrong). 

29 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Otherwise how do they pay your pension when the time comes?

 

As they noted, the contributions pay a set amount, the ‘Employers / Trusts’ pay a set amount, and the Government / tax payer tops up the short fall. 

[Penelope]

18 hours ago, Mungler said:

When is enough money, enough money?

When can we objectively look at the NHS and properly weigh up if we’re getting any value - comparative costs of other systems in other countries, our own life expectancies and so on.

Anyone I know whose had treatment in France / Italy / Portugal under a hybrid system where the state pays the lions share and the patient makes a contribution can’t but help pass comment on how the queue was shorter, the hospital newer / cleaner and the treatment better. 

I can see us just tipping more money into the NHS leaky bucket and expecting some sort of change or better service. What did Einstein say about the definition of madness?

Was just about to write what you had in your last sentence.