That 'downed American drone'

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Teal said:

Agree with much of what you wrote elsewhere, hence just quoting this bit. You are right about war crimes and I'm certainly not an apologist for the war or Putin. But I think it is very dangerous to dehumanise anyone, let alone a nation

It's the first step in justifying the killing of fellow humans for ideology. 

Well said 👍

[Mungler]

8 hours ago, Teal said:

Agree with much of what you wrote elsewhere, hence just quoting this bit. You are right about war crimes and I'm certainly not an apologist for the war or Putin. But I think it is very dangerous to dehumanise anyone, let alone a nation.

It is tempting to see it as good vs evil, black and white, but war is murky and bad things happen in it. Even for highly trained and professional armies like our own, and it's safe to say the Ukrainians and Russians both fall a long way short of our standards. Our press is partisan, and like Nordstream certain things are kept a little quiet.

As an aside, don't know if you've watched black mirror, but try men against fire. Absolutely not saying it's the same, but I never really understood how people can so apparently willingly do awful things. And it starts with words.

If you look at the roll call of ICC named prosecutions, these prosecutions are reserved for the worst of the worst; people who act and lead in the most inhumane way. Off the chart, unimaginable stuff.

Everyone has focused on the probability of Putin actually ending up in a courtroom, and disappointingly the underlying charges got washed away in the ‘reporting’.

I don’t know what ‘words’ caused the Russian conscripts to make them do what they have done, inside the borders of a neighbouring country, but given that they all thought they were just out on an SMO it didn’t seem to take much.

Granted it’s not a whole nation - there are some very brave people standing against Putin and the war and inside of Russia who have put their very lives at risk.

However, factually, we have an attacking force made up of Wagner psychopaths, criminals released from prison, Georgian lunatics and conscripts from the poorest regions and if they behave like Orcs then it’s equally dangerous for anyone else to deliberately alter words, language, terminology or fact.

If we’re not to call them Orcs then factually what do we reach for? Invading, torturing, kidnapping, murderous mercenary / psychopathic / criminal / knuckle dragging nut jobs? 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

That is a long list and in summary form. Where it’s been noted ‘there were signs of torture’ that skirts over what has actually happened.

Following on, what is clear to me:

1. Russian occupation of Ukraine ain’t never going to happen

2. stitching a peace deal together becomes all the more difficult with every atrocity 

 

No doubt there’s a big list of Ukrainian military atrocities somewhere, but defending your own home and own soil?

It’s all so unnecessary and caused by one man. Where have we heard that before?

Edited March 21, 2023 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

57 minutes ago, Mungler said:

If you look at the roll call of ICC named prosecutions, these prosecutions are reserved for the worst of the worst; people who act and lead in the most inhumane way. Off the chart, unimaginable stuff.

Have you actually looked at ICC prosecutions ? All err, 30 of them , and a whole 9 convictions? To a man , every single one of them is a tinpot African warlord.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

don’t know what ‘words’ caused the Russian conscripts to make them do what they have done, inside the borders of a neighbouring country, but given that they all thought they were just out on an SMO it didn’t seem to take much.

I don't know what words it took for US serviceman to indiscriminately murder, rape and torture innocent Afghans and Iraqis, but given that they thought they were bringing them freedom and democracy ,it didn't seem to take much.

Interestingly the ICC s investigation into the US  governments in charge over the 20 years of occupation is still ongoing, with previous attempts meeting with the threat of arrest of ICC staff.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

No doubt there’s a big list of Ukrainian military atrocities somewhere, but defending your own home and own soil

So it's OK to commit war crimes if you're defending your land from invaders ?

[Mungler]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Have you actually looked at ICC prosecutions ? All err, 30 of them , and a whole 9 convictions? To a man , every single one of them is a tinpot African warlord.

I don't know what words it took for US serviceman to indiscriminately murder, rape and torture innocent Afghans and Iraqis, but given that they thought they were bringing them freedom and democracy ,it didn't seem to take much.

Interestingly the ICC s investigation into the US  governments in charge over the 20 years of occupation is still ongoing, with previous attempts meeting with the threat of arrest of ICC staff.

So it's OK to commit war crimes if you're defending your land from invaders ?

1. Again, the ICC don’t have a magical power to transport ‘the accused’ from out of the land they inhabit and control.

2. African leaders feature in the ICC prosecution list because that’s been the nature of Africa for the past 50 years. Apart from the situation to hand show me some genocide or ethnic cleansing in mainland Europe?

3. Iraq / Afghanistan, if the west has to be held to account then it should. It’s not a green light for how the future unfolds nor do two wrongs make a right. I think the world would love to see Tony Blair answer for his role in tipping the world upside down. 

4. War crimes come in different shapes and sizes. The kidnapping and mass transportation of Ukrainian women and children for example is not something the Ukrainians are even capable of replicating. Nor can they bomb civilians in Russia. However, you get home and find out your civilian family have been tortured and murdered and the invading Russian soldiers are in your sights; what do you do? You probably don’t wait for the ICC or the Met Police.

 

 

 

 

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Mungler said:

1. Again, the ICC don’t have a magical power to transport ‘the accused’ from out of the land they inhabit and control.

2. African leaders feature in the ICC prosecution list because that’s been the nature of Africa for the past 50 years. Apart from the situation to hand show me some genocide or ethnic cleansing in mainland Europe?

 

Slobodan Milosovic Would be a good example of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Europe, with many parallels to the Russian invasion. Extradited under pressure at the end of the war. 

Also Ratko Mladic found guilty of war crimes at the Hague.

Back to the drones I imagine that Russia is having some level of success with drones as is Ukraine. The big difference being the number of small drones being deployed by Ukraine from what appears to be every battlefield. 

 

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Slobodan Milosovic Would be a good example of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Europe, with many parallels to the Russian invasion. Extradited under pressure at the end of the war. 

Also Ratko Mladic found guilty of war crimes at the Hague.

Good point. And both successfully prosecuted IIRC.

 

[Minky]

22 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Russia as a penultimate resort rolled tanks and men into Ukraine after the Ukranian Government would not implement internaltion accords it had signed up to, had been repeatedly warned over 8 years to stop atttacking the Donbass who left Ukraine to popular democratic vote in 2014.

 

Putins Russia invasion is going to go down as one of the most successful military operations in the last 80 years.

Compared to Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen etc where 'modern' military forces were fighing what could be best described as local Milita's, Russia is slowly but surely grinding down the Ukrainian Army to the point it will take 20 years (a generaton) before they can get back to the point they may become a threat to the Donbass and Russia.

Quote......Putins Russia invasion is going to go down as one of the most successful military operations in the last 80 years.

What as.?  the most effective way to dispose of a load of junk military eqpt and reduce the population.  AND to show the world how not to conduct a military campaign.  Also it might have failed to register that vast amounts of modern military hardware is being constantly being supplied to Ukraine and that despite throwing tens of thousand of conscripts and gaol prisoners to their deaths.  when it drys out a bit and the Ukraine forces advance how long do you think that the rag tag and two bob Russian army will last before they turn tail.  the game will soon be afoot .

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

1. Again, the ICC don’t have a magical power to transport ‘the accused’ from out of the land they inhabit and control.
They dont have any real power at all , its interesting reading how they tried to get indictments for Iraq and Afghan, the US ran them out of town , and threatened arrest and prosecution for anyone who worked for them, and any American who assisted them.

2. African leaders feature in the ICC prosecution list because that’s been the nature of Africa for the past 50 years. Apart from the situation to hand show me some genocide or ethnic cleansing in mainland Europe?

As Oowee pointed out , there are a multitude of deserving cases in the Balkans, no arrests , no convictions from the ICC.
Not any from Rwanda either , which I found a little strange.

3. Iraq / Afghanistan, if the west has to be held to account then it should. It’s not a green light for how the future unfolds nor do two wrongs make a right. I think the world would love to see Tony Blair answer for his role in tipping the world upside down. 

How is the west going to hold ITSELF accountable for crimes the west has committed ?
A look at the further adventures of Mr blair shows this to be true , the man who committed this country to a mass slaughter of civilians is a Middle East peace envoy 

4. War crimes come in different shapes and sizes. The kidnapping and mass transportation of Ukrainian women and children for example is not something the Ukrainians are even capable of replicating. Nor can they bomb civilians in Russia. However, you get home and find out your civilian family have been tortured and murdered and the invading Russian soldiers are in your sights; what do you do? You probably don’t wait for the ICC or the Met Police.

The Ukrainians would dearly love to attack Russian civilians , they are well on the way to dehumanising Russia.
So far the US has forbidden it, but they were more than happy to sit by and watch thousands die on both sides in the Donbass.
Ill be honest , if I got home and my family had been raped or killed by a hostile force, yes, I would likely go full Rambo, just as likely if I was ordered into invading a country , and my friends and team mates were shredded, theres going to be some pretty vengeful stuff going down, Im not making excuses, its just human nature.
But part of the process to get people to kill each other, is changing their perspective of the 'enemy'

 

 

 

 

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

 

I am afraid that the whole "look what the West did in Iraq twenty years ago" just doesn't sit well with me as any form of Defence or justification for mass murder and torture in the here and now.

And it's more of the same with "oh look the ICC didn't catch up with Blair or Bush or it prosecutes too many black people". It all rather ignores what's actually gone on and what's on the Charge sheet.

Lastly, I don't subscribe to the "Putin was forced to invade, commit mass murder and torture and any truthful criticism or labeling is dehumanizing of Russians". It's dehumanizing of all Russians, just the Russian soldiers that act in the most inhumane way.

I now begin to understand why the Jews are so protective of the World's memory and recognition of the holocaust. In modern times we'd all be told that we should be searching for some form of understanding as to why the Allies forced Hitler to liquidate 6 million Jews and told that these things are never black and white. 

 

 

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I am afraid that the whole "look what the West did in Iraq twenty years ago" just doesn't sit well with me as any form of Defence or justification for mass murder and torture in the here and now.

I could say we  only pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan 3 years ago , so its not 20 years old.
But then you say this 

21 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I now begin to understand why the Jews are so protective of the World's memory and recognition of the holocaust. In modern times we'd all be told that we should be searching for some form of understanding as to why the Allies forced Hitler to liquidate 6 million Jews and told that these things are never black and white. 

When did the holocaust happen again ?

 

23 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And it's more of the same with "oh look the ICC didn't catch up with Blair or Bush or it prosecutes too many black people". It all rather ignores what's actually gone on and what's on the Charge sheet.

Not really , trying to prosecute war crimes while the conflict zone is occupied by warring factions , and is heavily propagandised is pointless , especially when its helped along by a toothless entity no one recognises, like the ICC.

The factions in this case are clearly bending the truth to make their own cases, and both are trying to drag in outside parties to assist them.
Its fairly clear that BOTH are lying , both are committing war crimes, and frankly both about as bad as each other in the propaganda stakes.

Either let them duke it out without outside interference, or use the outside influencers considerable power to broker some kind of peace ?
Otherwise we just grind on , more lives lost , more money wasted, and the entire world becomes a less safe place for everyone.

[Mungler]

24 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The factions in this case are clearly bending the truth to make their own cases, and both are trying to drag in outside parties to assist them.
Its fairly clear that BOTH are lying , both are committing war crimes, and frankly both about as bad as each other in the propaganda stakes.

Either let them duke it out without outside interference, or use the outside influencers considerable power to broker some kind of peace ?
Otherwise we just grind on , more lives lost , more money wasted, and the entire world becomes a less safe place for everyone.

I’d agree with that.

I had hoped that the loss of life and ‘grind’ of war would have affected both sides by now and made them keener to search harder for a resolution.

That said, if the Chinese refuse to supply the Russians with munitions then that will bring about the end a lot quicker. Given that the West are China’s biggest customers I doubt that (1) they fancy wearing a sanction / going down that route and affecting their own economic plan (2) they are as keen on Putin as they make out - the fact that Putin is stuck in the mud and out of ammo against a smaller / inferior neighbour, well the Chinese won’t like the loss of face associating with losers.

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I’d agree with that.

I had hoped that the loss of life and ‘grind’ of war would have affected both sides by now and made them keener to search harder for a resolution.

That said, if the Chinese refuse to supply the Russians with munitions then that will bring about the end a lot quicker. Given that the West are China’s biggest customers I doubt that (1) they fancy wearing a sanction / going down that route and affecting their own economic plan (2) they are as keen on Putin as they make out - the fact that Putin is stuck in the mud and out of ammo against a smaller / inferior neighbour, well the Chinese won’t like the loss of face associating with losers.

I think its highly likely the Chinese are already supplying them with materiel, if Iran and NK can do it, I'm sure China can re route stuff through them. 

The difference is, Russia is paying for it, while expensive western equipment appears to be free for Ukraine, and that's where its going to fall apart eventually. 

[Stonepark]

41 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think its highly likely the Chinese are already supplying them with materiel, if Iran and NK can do it, I'm sure China can re route stuff through them. 

The difference is, Russia is paying for it, while expensive western equipment appears to be free for Ukraine, and that's where its going to fall apart eventually. 

👍

[Mungler]

Apparently UKR has just blown up a load of missiles in transit across Crimea.

The Russians have wasted tens, maybe even hundreds, of billions attacking Ukranian infrastructure with expensive missiles. Ukranian infrastructure has held up but there’s been massive loss of civilian life. 

So much for the week long Special Military Operation.

In other news, Russia is now sabre-rattling at Poland. That’s hilarious were it not a nuclear concern. I reckon the Poles would wipe the floor with them.

 

[welsh1]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I think its highly likely the Chinese are already supplying them with materiel, if Iran and NK can do it, I'm sure China can re route stuff through them. 

The difference is, Russia is paying for it, while expensive western equipment appears to be free for Ukraine, and that's where its going to fall apart eventually. 

Nothing is free, there will be a vast debt to be paid and preferential deals done for grain and metals etc.

The usa gave the uk vast amounts of kit in ww2, and as kind as it was we paid for it for 70 yrs.

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Nothing is free, there will be a vast debt to be paid and preferential deals done for grain and metals etc.

The usa gave the uk vast amounts of kit in ww2, and as kind as it was we paid for it for 70 yrs.

Only for the stuff the UK kept.  Under lend lease any equipment that was damaged or used up in the war the UK was not required to repaid.  The only thing UK paid for was the equipment that they wanted to keep after the war and that was sold to the UK at 6 cent on the dollar.  The USA lend lease cost 50.1 billion in 1930s money and the uk repaid 1.07 billion back to the USA or 3.8 billion in today’s money, and another 2 billion to Canada.  Between the US and other allies the Uk paid back 7.5 billion after interest. I had to right a huge paper in college on the lend lease act. 😂 

[Stonepark]

On 21/03/2023 at 16:48, Rewulf said:

I could say we  only pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan 3 years ago , so its not 20 years old.
But then you say this 

When did the holocaust happen again ?

 

Not really , trying to prosecute war crimes while the conflict zone is occupied by warring factions , and is heavily propagandised is pointless , especially when its helped along by a toothless entity no one recognises, like the ICC.

The factions in this case are clearly bending the truth to make their own cases, and both are trying to drag in outside parties to assist them.
Its fairly clear that BOTH are lying , both are committing war crimes, and frankly both about as bad as each other in the propaganda stakes.

Either let them duke it out without outside interference, or use the outside influencers considerable power to broker some kind of peace ?
Otherwise we just grind on , more lives lost , more money wasted, and the entire world becomes a less safe place for everyone.

ICC's looking more and more like another Steele dossier situation.... (I.e. make it up as you go along)

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/iccs-putin-arrest-warrant-based-state-dept-funded-report-debunked-itself

 

[Mungler]

7 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

ICC's looking more and more like another Steele dossier situation.... (I.e. make it up as you go along)

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/iccs-putin-arrest-warrant-based-state-dept-funded-report-debunked-itself

 

And if you Google ‘Zero Hedge’, you find out all you need to know about that news aggregator.

And as for an article written by Tyler Durden? 

It’s BS.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

It’s BS

Did you even read the article ?

Whatever you think of zero hedge , it's hard to argue with these facts.

he ICC prosecutor appeared to have based his arrest warrant on research produced by Yale University’s Humanitarian Research Lab (HRL). Yale HRL’s work was funded and guided by the State Department’s Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations, an entity the Biden administration established in May 2022 to advance the prosecution of Russian officials.

During an interview with CNN’s Anderson Cooper, Yale HRL’s executive director, Nathaniel Raymond, claimed his report provided proof that “thousands of children are in a hostage situation.” Invoking the Holocaust, Raymond asserted, “We are dealing with the largest network of children camps seen in the 21st century.”

Yet in an interview with Jeremy Loffredo, the co-author of this report, and in his own paper for Yale HRL, Raymond contradicted many of the bombastic claims he made to the media about child hostages. During a phone conversation with Loffredo, Raymond acknowledged that “a large amount” of the camps his team investigated were “primarily cultural education – like, I would say, teddy bear.”

Yale HRL’s report similarly acknowledges that most of the camps it profiled provided free recreational programs for disadvantaged youth whose parents sought “to protect their children from ongoing fighting” and “ensure they had nutritious food of the sort unavailable where they live.” Nearly all of the campers returned home in a timely manner after attending with the consent of their parents, according to the paper. The State Department-funded report further concedes that it found “no documentation of child mistreatment.”

Yale HRL based its research entirely on Maxar satellite data, Telegram postings, and Russian media reports, relying on Google translate to interpret them and at times misrepresented the articles in its citations. The State Department-funded unit conceded that it performed no field research for its paper, stating that it “does not conduct ground-level investigations and therefore did not request access to the camps.”

[ordnance]

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

ICC's looking more and more like another Steele dossier situation.... (I.e. make it up as you go along)

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/iccs-putin-arrest-warrant-based-state-dept-funded-report-debunked-itself

 

ZeroHedge 😂