That 'downed American drone'

[Mungler]

Russia rolled tanks and 250,000 men over the border of a neighbouring sovereign nation, seeking to take control of a whole country. 

Whatever limited regional spats had or had not been taking place could have been dealt with locally or through diplomatic channels.

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is going to go down as the biggest military blunder of all time. 

As for drones, you get 360 degree cameras as standard in a Tesla…

All the usual pro-Putin suspects are out of course but don’t forget this drone was operating in international airspace. The end.

[NoBodyImportant]

America has been bombing goat herders for years.   Trillions of dollars of budget goes to black projects.  My guess is the pentagon has 20 years of classified technology that they are itching to test on first world tech.  Kinda like the F-117 stealth plane was in service for six years before Americans citizens saw it in Desert storm.  And the bunker buster didn’t exist until Iraqi bunkers started blowing up underground.  The thing about Russians is they wear uniforms so they stand 0 chance fighting America. America doesn’t care if they provoke Russia. 

There are two many Ukraine war videos with the Ukrainian soldiers speaking English in a thick American accent to pretend that the Ukrainians are fighting off the Russians on their own.  It’s not even being hidden. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

All the usual pro-Putin suspects are out of course but don’t forget this drone was operating in international airspace. The end.

OK then , considering that 'international airspace' at 12 nautical miles, technically doesnt extend over Crimea , as its disputed, the MQ 9 should have bee able to fly over Crimea, through Ukrainian territory and Russian lines and take as much footage as it liked, and be completely unmolested ?
Just like any Chinese or Russian drone, unregistered and without transponders , can fly to within 12 miles of any US coastline ?

Just asking , because my handler didnt realise that was a thing 

[oowee]

14 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

America has been bombing goat herders for years.   Trillions of dollars of budget goes to black projects.  My guess is the pentagon has 20 years of classified technology that they are itching to test on first world tech.  Kinda like the F-117 stealth plane was in service for six years before Americans citizens saw it in Desert storm.  And the bunker buster didn’t exist until Iraqi bunkers started blowing up underground.  The thing about Russians is they wear uniforms so they stand 0 chance fighting America. America doesn’t care if they provoke Russia. 

There are two many Ukraine war videos with the Ukrainian soldiers speaking English in a thick American accent to pretend that the Ukrainians are fighting off the Russians on their own.  It’s not even being hidden. 

When this is all over it can be recast as an American movie. 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Russia rolled tanks and 250,000 men over the border of a neighbouring sovereign nation, seeking to take control of a whole country. 

Whatever limited regional spats had or had not been taking place could have been dealt with locally or through diplomatic channels.

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is going to go down as the biggest military blunder of all time. 

As for drones, you get 360 degree cameras as standard in a Tesla…

All the usual pro-Putin suspects are out of course but don’t forget this drone was operating in international airspace. The end.

The delusions get better and better....

Russia as a penultimate resort rolled tanks and men into Ukraine after the Ukranian Government would not implement internaltion accords it had signed up to, had been repeatedly warned over 8 years to stop atttacking the Donbass who left Ukraine to popular democratic vote in 2014.

Anglea Merkel herself admitted that the Minsk negotiations were held by the West and Ukraine in bad faith and therefore diplomacy was a sham.

Putins Russia invasion is going to go down as one of the most successful military operations in the last 80 years. Compared to Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen etc where 'modern' military forces were fighing what could be best described as local Milita's, Russia is slowly but surely grinding down the Ukrainian Army to the point it will take 20 years (a generaton) before they can get back to the point they may become a threat to the Donbass and Russia.

As well you know, when a military operation is ongoing, normal international air space rules are suspended, and which happened in all the conflicts above, including Ukraine.

Also you trying flying without a flight plan within 250km of the UK and USA etc and you get your own personal fighter escort and forced down or shot down if you don't change course and move away. They don't wait until you are within 22km. (12 nautical miles)

Edited March 20, 2023 by Stonepark

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

OK then , considering that 'international airspace' at 12 nautical miles, technically doesnt extend over Crimea , as its disputed, the MQ 9 should have bee able to fly over Crimea, through Ukrainian territory and Russian lines and take as much footage as it liked, and be completely unmolested ?
Just like any Chinese or Russian drone, unregistered and without transponders , can fly to within 12 miles of any US coastline ?

Just asking , because my handler didnt realise that was a thing 

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t actually care. It’s an unmanned drone. The Yanks, the Russians and the Chinese have advanced spy satellites, and so snooping goes on all the time. I rather think that the Russians saw the chance of disabling one, scooping it up and taking a peak inside.

But all this conspiracy nonsense about cameras - if you are aware that a base Tesla comes with 360 degree cameras as standard you wouldn’t ask the question or entertain the rabbit hole theories of which there are always plenty. 

3 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

The delusions get better and better....

Russia as a penultimate resort rolled tanks and men into Ukraine after the Ukranian Government would not implement internaltion accords it had signed up to, had been repeatedly warned over 8 years to stop atttacking the Donbass who left Ukraine to popular democratic vote in 2014.

Anglea Merkel herself admitted that the Minsk negotiations were held by the West and Ukraine in bad faith and therefore diplomacy was a sham.

Putins Russia invasion is going to go down as one of the most successful military operations in the last 80 years. Compared to Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen etc where 'modern' military forces were fighing what could be best described as local Milita's, Russia is slowly but surely grinding down the Ukrainian Army to the point it will take 20 years (a generaton) before they can get back to the point they may become a threat to the Donbass and Russia.

As well you know, when a military operation is ongoing, normal international air space rules are suspended, and which happened in all the conflicts above, including Ukraine.

Also you trying flying without a flight plan within 250km of the UK and USA etc and you get your own personal fighter escort and forced down or shot down if you don't change course and move away. They don't wait until you are within 22km. (12 nautical miles)

Well, let’s recap…. we’re here and talking about this because of 250,000 men and machines rolling over a border.

What an outstandingly brilliant idea and plan to invade Ukraine and start a war (SMO by backside).

Well done Putin. Genius, master strategist. 

And with of all of the other options available.

There we go. 

 

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Mungler said:

But all this conspiracy nonsense about cameras - if you are aware that a base Tesla comes with 360 degree cameras as standard you wouldn’t ask the question or entertain the rabbit hole theories of which there are always plenty. 

I didnt , and I know youre not accusing me of doing so.
FWIW I would be gobsmacked if nearly $20 millions worth of drone didnt have a 360 camera, you can buy a crude one on ebay for £20 😄

My original question remains , if the US/NATO is not directly involved in the war, as in it just supplies weapons ... and err,  intelligence , training, targeting information from satellites , AWACS and drones , and the occasional use of special forces to destroy Russian infrastructure, and has publicly stated it wants to weaken Russia.
Wait ! That sounds quite 'involved ' to me ?

15 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I rather think that the Russians saw the chance of disabling one, scooping it up and taking a peak inside.

Why didnt they just wait for it to get into international airspace after it took off then ?

Alls fair in love and war ?

[Mungler]

If the West are supplying billions of dollars and tanks, jets and full training etc in support, then flying a drone in international airspace over an area to gather intel isn’t exactly moving the needle.

And no, the 360 degree camera harked back to the OP’s original rabbit hole post.

[Stonepark]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

When this is all over it can be recast as an American movie. 

 

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t actually care. It’s an unmanned drone. The Yanks, the Russians and the Chinese have advanced spy satellites, and so snooping goes on all the time. I rather think that the Russians saw the chance of disabling one, scooping it up and taking a peak inside.

But all this conspiracy nonsense about cameras - if you are aware that a base Tesla comes with 360 degree cameras as standard you wouldn’t ask the question or entertain the rabbit hole theories of which there are always plenty. 

Well, let’s recap…. we’re here and talking about this because of 250,000 men and machines rolling over a border.

What an outstandingly brilliant idea and plan to invade Ukraine and start a war (SMO by backside).

Well done Putin. Genius, master strategist. 

And with of all of the other options available.

There we go. 

 

 

USA/UK providing targeting to Ukraine via drones is an annoyance and not central to the fight but at some point Russia was going to put it's foot down and say enough is enough.

Some times the only way to solve a problem is to take a big hammer... when all the other tools are already broken or not suited.

The Russian strategy is not to take ground per se but to demilitarise Ukraine by destroying it's combat ability whilst retaining Russia's and it's going well.... all the weapons and material supplied by the West is now about exhausted, Ukrainian army is down 150,000 KIA and 3 times that number in WIA.

Half the Ukrainian combat man power is gone, as is 75% of their large weapon systems combat power and whilst they are desperately holding on, the war is already won by Russia, it is now a matter for Ukraine as to how bad the defeat is going to be.

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

When this is all over it can be recast as an American movie. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjnkcaPK6rI

 

[oowee]

33 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjnkcaPK6rI

 

Need more Stars and Stripes and Oorah||

[Gordon R]

Quote

Who came into the Donbass at the request of the legitimate government... Russia

A stand alone classic.

[Dave-G]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

... Don’t get me wrong, I don’t actually care. It’s an unmanned drone. The Yanks, the Russians and the Chinese have advanced spy satellites, and so snooping goes on all the time. I rather think that the Russians saw the chance of disabling one, scooping it up and taking a peak inside.

But all this conspiracy nonsense about cameras - if you are aware that a base Tesla comes with 360 degree cameras as standard you wouldn’t ask the question or entertain the rabbit hole theories of which there are always plenty. 

....

 

I totally agree and have put my hands up to that before your involvement:- it was very silly of me to be curious, naive and ignorant enough to ask about a high level rear facing camera when its main (civilian perceived) duty would be observing ground actions. So sorry to have raised the inquiry to slake my own personal curiosity.

But still being silly - would the Tesla analogy use cameras for overhead observation?  or just the road traffic areas like naive drivers might think. (considering you felt I was intending to promote a conspiracy rather than raise a badly worded query) 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Dave-G

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

I totally agree and have put my hands up to that before your involvement:- it was very silly of me to be curious, naive and ignorant enough to ask about a high level rear facing camera when its main (civilian perceived) duty would be observing ground actions. So sorry to have raised the inquiry to slake my own personal curiosity.

But still being silly - would the Tesla analogy use cameras for overhead observation?  or just the road traffic areas like naive drivers might think. (considering you felt I was intending to promote a conspiracy rather than raise a badly worded query) 

USAF drone $56,000,000

USA Tesla $56,000

Pretty sure the drone will have extra cameras, or rather that’s more probable than whatever rabbit hole theory has ended up on the internet because of the video footage.

 

3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

 

USA/UK providing targeting to Ukraine via drones is an annoyance and not central to the fight but at some point Russia was going to put it's foot down and say enough is enough.

Some times the only way to solve a problem is to take a big hammer... when all the other tools are already broken or not suited.

The Russian strategy is not to take ground per se but to demilitarise Ukraine by destroying it's combat ability whilst retaining Russia's and it's going well.... all the weapons and material supplied by the West is now about exhausted, Ukrainian army is down 150,000 KIA and 3 times that number in WIA.

Half the Ukrainian combat man power is gone, as is 75% of their large weapon systems combat power and whilst they are desperately holding on, the war is already won by Russia, it is now a matter for Ukraine as to how bad the defeat is going to be.

 

 

Dumping fuel over a drone isn’t exactly a big hammer moment. 

The tech sanctions have hit Russia hard and I bet they’d love to get their hands on a US drone - after all, they don’t have any of their own and what they do have they have had to buy in in limited supply from Iran.

Yes Russia has a never ending supply of cannon fodder but it’s running out of everything else, hence part of the reason the Chinese are in town.

I still don’t see how Russia plans (or even planned) to take and hold the whole of Ukraine - maybe they would extend their delightful policy of kidnapping Ukrainians and moving them to the farthest god forsaken regions of Russia and then repopulating the whole of Ukraine- and to think the Ukrainians weren’t that keen and still aren’t that keen on being part of Russia again; go figure. 

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

USAF drone $56,000,000

28 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Dumping fuel over a drone isn’t exactly a big hammer moment. 

The Intelligent Aerospace take:

June 12, 2020 -Hambling notes in his piece that each MQ-9 reaper cost taxpayers $14 million each while that figure has now more than doubled to $32 million apiece, which the writer notes is higher than an Apache attack helicopter. Early UAVs were considered expendable and were relatively low-tech, but have, over the years, been upgraded with cutting-edge technology. The Air Force has put out a request for information for a unmanned system they can once again afford to lose.

Even if Russia managed to reverse engineer an MQ9 , they wouldnt copy them, the cost is simply too high, an Iranian Shahed, or Russian Lancet drone flies further, is very difficult to detect , and costs £20,000. They also score the bonus points of having western taxpayer bought anti air missiles thrown at them at up to half a million dollars a piece.
Simple economics .

 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The Intelligent Aerospace take:

June 12, 2020 -Hambling notes in his piece that each MQ-9 reaper cost taxpayers $14 million each while that figure has now more than doubled to $32 million apiece, which the writer notes is higher than an Apache attack helicopter. Early UAVs were considered expendable and were relatively low-tech, but have, over the years, been upgraded with cutting-edge technology. The Air Force has put out a request for information for a unmanned system they can once again afford to lose.

Even if Russia managed to reverse engineer an MQ9 , they wouldnt copy them, the cost is simply too high, an Iranian Shahed, or Russian Lancet drone flies further, is very difficult to detect , and costs £20,000. They also score the bonus points of having western taxpayer bought anti air missiles thrown at them at up to half a million dollars a piece.
Simple economics .

 

It’s the age old you get what you pay for:

25 mile range and 26 lb payload vs.

1200 mile range and 3000 lb payload 

 

[ordnance]

6 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

America has been bombing goat herders for years.   Trillions of dollars of budget goes to black projects.  My guess is the pentagon has 20 years of classified technology that they are itching to test on first world tech.  Kinda like the F-117 stealth plane was in service for six years before Americans citizens saw it in Desert storm.  And the bunker buster didn’t exist until Iraqi bunkers started blowing up underground.  The thing about Russians is they wear uniforms so they stand 0 chance fighting America. America doesn’t care if they provoke Russia. 

There are two many Ukraine war videos with the Ukrainian soldiers speaking English in a thick American accent to pretend that the Ukrainians are fighting off the Russians on their own.  It’s not even being hidden. 

It's common knowledge are soldiers from different countries fighting in Ukraine, the clue is in the name international brigade 🤔 that's not the same as regular soldiers from different countries.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

25 mile range and 26 lb payload

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136#:~:text=Range has been estimated to,in the Geran-2 drone.

The issue, and this will become apparent in later conflicts, is intercept cost. 

£20,000 worth of suicide drone, in a massed attack {drone swarm} each  needs between £500,000 to £1 million of premium SAM  to intercept. This changes the economic landscape of conventional warfare. 

The SM2s that are carried by US and UK navies cost £1 million each, and are limited in ready state numbers, a drone swarm could deplete the main anti air armaments, leaving the ship virtually defenceless against the following anti ship missiles. US strategy is being questioned as we speak on this. 

This is one of the main reasons the US couldn't possibly defend Taiwan. 

 

[welsh1]

49 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136#:~:text=Range has been estimated to,in the Geran-2 drone.

The issue, and this will become apparent in later conflicts, is intercept cost. 

£20,000 worth of suicide drone, in a massed attack {drone swarm} each  needs between £500,000 to £1 million of premium SAM  to intercept. This changes the economic landscape of conventional warfare. 

The SM2s that are carried by US and UK navies cost £1 million each, and are limited in ready state numbers, a drone swarm could deplete the main anti air armaments, leaving the ship virtually defenceless against the following anti ship missiles. US strategy is being questioned as we speak on this. 

This is one of the main reasons the US couldn't possibly defend Taiwan. 

 

C-RAM.

C-WIZ

[Mungler]

9 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

C-RAM.

C-WIZ

Or make sure you’re 25.1 miles away. 

When I pointed out that a Russian Kalibr cruise missile cost $6.5m a go and firing half a dozen into a town to kill a few women and children, I was told they had more than they knew what to do with. Now it transpires they don’t and supply can’t keep up with demand. Nor do they have a limitless supply of regular munitions or semi conductors hence the chat with the Chinese.

[welsh1]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Or make sure you’re 25.1 miles away. 

When I pointed out that a Russian Kalibr cruise missile cost $6.5m a go and firing half a dozen into a town to kill a few women and children, I was told they had more than they knew what to do with. Now it transpires they don’t and supply can’t keep up with demand. Nor do they have a limitless supply of regular munitions or semi conductors hence the chat with the Chinese.

And where do most semi conductors come from..........Taiwan, hence china rattling sabres.
There is a world shortage of semi conductors, and the west have placed sanctions on russia, and Taiwan have a great relationship with USA.

Russia is struggling to obtain up to date technology.

[Teal]

I think a few of the theories going around that are more believable, is that some of these stories that seem big but aren't really, such as the 'spy balloons' and the crashed drone, are that they come out with big attention to distract from other events. Great cover for getting some bad news out of the way, all politicians do it. Unfortunately if that was the case, it hasn't really worked and the bank runs have begun.

Whilst on media reporting... on the other hand it's very revealing how little light has been shone on the blowing up of Nordstream. I don't know who did it but bearing in mind the climate if it was Russia (and it makes little sense for them to blow up their own pipeline that they could turn it on/off at will) I think it would have been comprehensively revealed with considerable speed. So got to think balance probabilities it's the West, which is a pretty outrageous act, hence the hush hush. 

Find it very disappointing no one seriously talking about a route for peace. And I also find it concerning on social the dehumanisation of Russians. The sort of language used, 'orcs', harks back to the previous world wars, and is extremely disturbing. I think all sides need to eat an unpalatable sandwich, but there seems little will whilst each thinks they can win, and so thousands more will die. That's depressing. Sorry derailed a bit from OP.

[Mungler]

I know it’s war (or a Special Military Operation if you will 🙂) but if half the stories about what the Russians have done to the civilian population of Ukraine and on Ukrainian soil are true then they have earned the label ‘Orc’.

As an aside I understand that the Russian bot / hacker farms swarmed on anyone on line voicing anti Putin views and so people discussing the war started using Orc, Sauron and Mordor.

As for peace, who knows but that’s going to need a change of regime and judging by the amount of body doubles and Kevlar vests used by Putin he knows it too - some say that the attrition of the Wagner group in the current fighting helps thin out the likely source of Putin opposition.

As for Nordstream; I find it improbable that it was the Russians. Yeah when you get into the false flag / double and triple cross theories then anything can be said to be possible, but I just can’t see any plausible reason why the Russians would blow up their own expensive pipeline which they controlled. If you want to get whacky it could have been the Chinese to force a new pipeline supply from Russia but realistically it’s someone who wanted to turn off the supply of money to Putin’s regime. 

[Teal]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I know it’s war (or a Special Military Operation if you will 🙂) but if half the stories about what the Russians have done to the civilian population of Ukraine and on Ukrainian soil are true then they have earned the label ‘Orc’.

Agree with much of what you wrote elsewhere, hence just quoting this bit. You are right about war crimes and I'm certainly not an apologist for the war or Putin. But I think it is very dangerous to dehumanise anyone, let alone a nation.

It is tempting to see it as good vs evil, black and white, but war is murky and bad things happen in it. Even for highly trained and professional armies like our own, and it's safe to say the Ukrainians and Russians both fall a long way short of our standards. Our press is partisan, and like Nordstream certain things are kept a little quiet.

As an aside, don't know if you've watched black mirror, but try men against fire. Absolutely not saying it's the same, but I never really understood how people can so apparently willingly do awful things. And it starts with words.

[NoBodyImportant]

11 hours ago, oowee said:

When this is all over it can be recast as an American movie. 

Well at the current tab of 115 billion from the USA with another 45 billion in the works we could have simply bought the Ukraine 

Edited March 20, 2023 by NoBodyImportant