Why the Keyham Test is so important for the future of shooting

[Conor O'Gorman]

With the Home Office soon to announce a consultation on firearms licensing following the coroner’s inquest on the Keyham shootings,  BASC's Martin Parker explains why the Keyham Test is so important for the future of shooting...

https://basc.org.uk/why-the-keyham-test-is-important-for-the-future-of-shooting/

[Scully]

It is clear that many licensing departments are in need of a serious overhaul.
I believe it was also D&C licensing authorities which sent back renewals to two firearms certificate holders which were blank! Licensing had deleted all the firearms of one ticket holder who had to inform them of what firearms he actually owned! Another, on informing the same authority that they had omitted 50% of his firearms from his renewed ticket, was told to ‘fill it in yourself’ ! 
These are the people responsible for licensing in the UK. 
 

[Dave at kelton]

23 minutes ago, Scully said:

It is clear that many licensing departments are in need of a serious overhaul.
I believe it was also D&C licensing authorities which sent back renewals to two firearms certificate holders which were blank! Licensing had deleted all the firearms of one ticket holder who had to inform them of what firearms he actually owned! Another, on informing the same authority that they had omitted 50% of his firearms from his renewed ticket, was told to ‘fill it in yourself’ ! 
These are the people responsible for licensing in the UK. 
 

Yes, when my certificate was transferred to Police Scotland my records were forwarded by my former licensing force. I was informed that certain guns were not recorded in the file despite my being able to provide documentary evidence of notification and they were on my certificate. Fortunately I have always notified changes by recorded delivery which will continue to do.

[Minky]

Most of the firearms atrocities have occured becase plod didn't remove firearms from people who plod had been warned about.  I belong to a rifle club and we had a bloke turn up who was a dangerous person.  In short he was a nutter.  A potentially dangerous violent nutter who wanted to get a ticket to obtain firearms.  In his head he planned to become an rfd in order to access firearms.  Club officials notified plod about this situation.  The club stalled this blokes club application and he then attempted to join another club .  We know some members of that club and notified them about our concerns.  They came to the same conclusion as we had and also notified plod.!!!  What did plod do.?   They issued matey with a certificate. .!!  After plod issued Matey with a certificate he never went back to the club and disappeared from view.  In my opinion he should never have been allowed anywhere near any sort of weapon.  Or pushbike.  Basics attempt is as always low power and a long way behind the curve.  I really care.  It makes me so angry. How can it be that we are charged a fee and then suddenly we have to pay for a doctor who doesn't even know who we are to certify that we aren't a risk.  Madness.  Basic is just not fit for purpose. Total waste of time.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Minky

[Minky]

Ps to above post.  How can it be a situation where the plod are so totally inept.  Applications not processed.  Variations taking months.  New applications not processed.   Feo's  coming out with any old statement that takes their fancy.  Applicants having to pay for meaningless doctors certificates.  Where is basic challenging any of this.  Basic should publish how they are challenging this. Plod is judge, jury and executioner in this.  It wrong and soon they won't be any shooters for basic to say they represent.  P45 time. And I don't care if some don't like what I write.  It's the truth and you know it is.

[JohnfromUK]

7 hours ago, Minky said:

Plod is judge, jury and executioner in this.

This is true (though there is I believe an appeals process?) but I have had visits from two FEOs over the years and found both (my impression) to be very level headed and conscientious individuals.  I do know that one of them (who was in post for many years) was well known, liked and respected, and took the trouble to attend some local shooting events.

My renewal is in at present and I'm interested to see how long it takes.  All paperwork was in (inc Dr's form) on 27/4, and my cheque has cleared out of my account.  'Deadline' for renewal (old SGC expiry) is not until late July.

[mossy835]

my mate put in for his renewal 4 weeks a go on line. next day they phoned him up saying we have not got the guns on record you have put down,he phoned them up up and said iv had them for years so all is good now,i think they have no idear whats out there,

[Minky]

6 hours ago, mossy835 said:

my mate put in for his renewal 4 weeks a go on line. next day they phoned him up saying we have not got the guns on record you have put down,he phoned them up up and said iv had them for years so all is good now,i think they have no idear whats out there,

This is not the first time that I've heard of this.  How the hell in this day and age of computerised records can they not know what is out there or who has got what.  I remember that down on the military ranges that after the police had been down there shooting that there were a lot of live rounds scattered around on the ground at the firing point and that somehow when one outfit left the firing range two handguns had been left on the vehicles and as they drove off the guns fell off onto the road and were recovered by members of the public.  Absolute shambles.  AND these are the people who are operating the laws.

[mossy835]

i remeber a time when a hand gun was left in the toilet but the police.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

My renewal is in at present and I'm interested to see how long it takes.  All paperwork was in (inc Dr's form) on 27/4, and my cheque has cleared out of my account.  'Deadline' for renewal (old SGC expiry) is not until late July.

Then expect your new cert in late June or early July!

[GHE]

On 05/05/2023 at 23:01, Minky said:

Most of the firearms atrocities have occured becase plod didn't remove firearms from people who plod had been warned about.  I belong to a rifle club and we had a bloke turn up who was a dangerous person.  In short he was a nutter.  A potentially dangerous violent nutter who wanted to get a ticket to obtain firearms.  In his head he planned to become an rfd in order to access firearms.  Club officials notified plod about this situation.  The club stalled this blokes club application and he then attempted to join another club .  We know some members of that club and notified them about our concerns.  They came to the same conclusion as we had and also notified plod.!!!  What did plod do.?   They issued matey with a certificate. .!!  After plod issued Matey with a certificate he never went back to the club and disappeared from view.  In my opinion he should never have been allowed anywhere near any sort of weapon.  Or pushbike.  Basics attempt is as always low power and a long way behind the curve.  I really care.  It makes me so angry. How can it be that we are charged a fee and then suddenly we have to pay for a doctor who doesn't even know who we are to certify that we aren't a risk.  Madness.  Basic is just not fit for purpose. Total waste of time.

There was a very similar situation with Michal Ryan (Hungerford) The club secretary warned the police about him but they issued him with a certificate anyway, nothing has changed.

 

On 06/05/2023 at 07:05, JohnfromUK said:

This is true (though there is I believe an appeals process?) but I have had visits from two FEOs over the years and found both (my impression) to be very level headed and conscientious individuals.  I do know that one of them (who was in post for many years) was well known, liked and respected, and took the trouble to attend some local shooting events.

My renewal is in at present and I'm interested to see how long it takes.  All paperwork was in (inc Dr's form) on 27/4, and my cheque has cleared out of my account.  'Deadline' for renewal (old SGC expiry) is not until late July.

Yes, there is an appeals process, but the appeal is in the Crown Court before a Purple Judge who is pretty much chosen by the police . . .

It takes a long time even to be heard, and in the vast majority of cases the appellant has to pay both their own costs and the police costs, I know one case where the costs were £85K - how many shooters can fund that?

BASC has proposed that there should be some kind of overall authority to supervise police firearms licensing departments, I do have some reservations about this - largely based on my assumption that BASC thinks that they should be that authority - but what I do believe would help is an Ombudsman, who could override police decisions and in effect make the Crown Court Appeals redundant. A good Ombudsman could improve public safety as well as reducing the unfairness of the current system.

[Centrepin]

I'm led to believe that the police have a new email filter that sends 90% to spam and is automatically deleted.

Please let this be wrong.

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

I'm led to believe that the police have a new email filter that sends 90% to spam and is automatically deleted.

Please let this be wrong.

I have had four occasions to contact the Police in the last 6 months;

1. Reporting fly-tipping of probable stolen goods - used web site and they telephoned me back inside 1/2 hour and attended shortly afterwards - followed I understand by a 'useful outcome'.
2. A firearms transfer - when following completing the 'on-line' transfer form - I was unable to either send or save it unless I paid a fee of 32 USD to whoever wrote their bizarrely obstructive form (which is in PDF but requires a specific PDF editor, the unlicenced free version of which is highly restricted.)  Ended up using recorded delivery Royal Mail which took over 3 weeks to cover 15 miles (during mail strike period).
3. SGC renewal forms - which I did by recorded delivery Royal Mail again.  Delivered next day this time.
4. Further reporting of fly-tipping/suspicious goods dumped.  Simply referred me to the council's website.

Conclusion - they 'monitor' and only 'act' if and when it suits them.

[Centrepin]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have had four occasions to contact the Police in the last 6 months;

1. Reporting fly-tipping of probable stolen goods - used web site and they telephoned me back inside 1/2 hour and attended shortly afterwards - followed I understand by a 'useful outcome'.
2. A firearms transfer - when following completing the 'on-line' transfer form - I was unable to either send or save it unless I paid a fee of 32 USD to whoever wrote their bizarrely obstructive form (which is in PDF but requires a specific PDF editor, the unlicenced free version of which is highly restricted.)  Ended up using recorded delivery Royal Mail which took over 3 weeks to cover 15 miles (during mail strike period).
3. SGC renewal forms - which I did by recorded delivery Royal Mail again.  Delivered next day this time.
4. Further reporting of fly-tipping/suspicious goods dumped.  Simply referred me to the council's website.

Conclusion - they 'monitor' and only 'act' if and when it suits them.

I meant the firearms teams only, I have no knowledge of any other Police activity.

I have emailed 5 times this year. Variation, Question on disposal, Aquisition, Sale and a general follow up. 

Non acknowledged, no action taken. Gave proof of the above to FEO who actioned everything immediately and even printed new licence whilst I waited.

I have always found my local FEOs to be very helpful and pleasant to deal with face to face but impossible to get hold of without an appointment. 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Centrepin said:

I have always found my local FEOs to be very helpful and pleasant to deal with face to face

Agreed, that has also been my experience.

 

1 minute ago, Centrepin said:

impossible to get hold of without an appointment.

I think that sums up the Police overall.  101 seems a waste of time - and their web 'report a crime' they read it, but only reply if it suits them.