BASC tips on home loading your own shotgun cartridges

[Centrepin]

7 hours ago, London Best said:

Why would you think that? 
 

Think it?

Do I have a choice then?

Can I carry on using lead or is the use of steel forced upon me?

As for other countries, I live in Britain, England to be precise and don't give a damm what other countries choose or choose not to use. As your mammy used to say, if everybody else jumped off a bridge..........

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have checked with colleagues and there are fibre shot cups available (for all shot types including steel shot) and whilst not yet available for all gauges we expect that this will change over time. 

See for example weblink below:

https://www.claygame.co.uk/search?q=fibre+shot+cup

On the wider points we are aware that all manufacturers/assemblers are short of components and that is outside our control.

Fibre shot cups

1) they are over £100 per 1000 just for the wads.

2) patent by gamebore years ago, patent now expired and no longer used by gamebore and 99.9% certain no more will be made in current gauges let alone other gauges. Costly and slow to manufacture, but simple to make with no expensive tooling required, via cardboard tube industry.

Barking up the wrong tree with them Conor.

However Jocker cartridges are using  the idea in a similar cardboard cup.

compostable/biodegradable/water soluble wads which can be made so much quicker by injection moulding are seen as the way forward, however very expensive tooling, moulds required.

Edited November 7, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Bernard]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have checked with colleagues and there are fibre shot cups available (for all shot types including steel shot) and whilst not yet available for all gauges we expect that this will change over time. 

See for example weblink below:

https://www.claygame.co.uk/search?q=fibre+shot+cup

On the wider points we are aware that all manufacturers/assemblers are short of components and that is outside our control.

I, like every other hand loader, am aware of the clay and game fibre shot cups in 12 and 10 bores. I won’t get into the short comings or relative costs of these because that wasn’t the point of my post.
 

I asked about engagement from an advocacy organisation on behalf of the small part of its membership that hand-load for better access to higher quality, non-plastic components. These components are available and they are being rolled out in swathes as part of Fiocchi / B&Ps drive to get more of the UK market.

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, Bernard said:

I, like every other hand loader, am aware of the clay and game fibre shot cups in 12 and 10 bores. I won’t get into the short comings or relative costs of these because that wasn’t the point of my post.
 

I asked about engagement from an advocacy organisation on behalf of the small part of its membership that hand-load for better access to higher quality, non-plastic components. These components are available and they are being rolled out in swathes as part of Fiocchi / B&Ps drive to get more of the UK market.

Most (all but two) of the compostable/biodegradable/water soluble wads are owned by a cartridge manufacturer who have invested significant resources into them so are very unlikely to sell the wads to the home loaders. They can upsell the cartridges to get a return on there investment.

of the two, one is the water soluble type and the other never gained any traction and was used by express in their earth wad cartridges but now express is owned by Fiocchi they will no longer be used. They also took years to degrade as do most of the others still in use will.

All are far more expensive then single use plastic wads as the material they are made from is that much more expensive.

For a material to be biodegradable, there must be an organism that can feed on it and transform it into biomass. No organism has evolved to date to be able to swallow synthetic polymers such as plastic.

Magic does not exist. There is no material that supports the pressure of shot, that does not contaminate and that also disappears in hours that can be used as a shot cup.

cardboard is a sound idea as there are bacteria that feed on cellulose and eventually will convert it into biomass.  

 

[Dave at kelton]

43 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Fibre shot cups

1) they are over £100 per 1000 just for the wads.

2) patent by gamebore years ago, patent now expired and no longer used by gamebore and 99.9% certain no more will be made in current gauges let alone other gauges. Costly and slow to manufacture, but simple to make with no expensive tooling required, via cardboard tube industry.

Barking up the wrong tree with them Conor.

However Jocker cartridges are using  the idea in a similar cardboard cup.

compostable/biodegradable/water soluble wads which can be made so much quicker by injection moulding are seen as the way forward, however very expensive tooling, moulds required.

You are wrong on this as Claygame are having these made in various gauges, 12 and larger in various sizes to accommodate different steel shot loads. I discuss these with them annually and have just had some more delivered.

[Dave at kelton]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have checked with colleagues and there are fibre shot cups available (for all shot types including steel shot) and whilst not yet available for all gauges we expect that this will change over time. 

See for example weblink below:

https://www.claygame.co.uk/search?q=fibre+shot+cup

On the wider points we are aware that all manufacturers/assemblers are short of components and that is outside our control.

Connor, you are correct on the fibre shot cups but they are not suitable in small bores as they are too bulky requiring a thick wall to protect the barrels. We desperately need manufacturers to come up with an eco wad that they are prepared to make available to the home loading market. Our problem is also that as we have to move up a couple of shot sizes in steel all of our loads are bulkier than the equivalent lead load. Pressure in this area from BASC and the other shooting organisations would be greatly appreciated!

[Scully]

RC ( SIPE ) had a stall at the shooting show at Harrogate where they were bigging up an eco wad. Haven’t heard anything about it since. 🤷‍♂️

[rbrowning2]

27 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

You are wrong on this as Claygame are having these made in various gauges, 12 and larger in various sizes to accommodate different steel shot loads. I discuss these with them annually and have just had some more delivered.

Happy to be proved wrong, but they have their quad seal technology which allows them to manufacture wads in house so time will tell if they continue to use a third party to make the cardboard cups, why would you?

Gamebore website, me thinks cardboard cups will be discontinued.

The Bio-Wad® is a full cup wad utilising cutting-edge water soluble material which is 100% environmentally safe. Incorporating all the benefits of the Quad Seal with the addition of a new and unique cup section. The Bio Wad has ribbed petals with unique 45 degree overlapping edges, giving complete barrel protection.

Edited November 7, 2023 by rbrowning2

[rbrowning2]

20 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Connor, you are correct on the fibre shot cups but they are not suitable in small bores as they are too bulky requiring a thick wall to protect the barrels. We desperately need manufacturers to come up with an eco wad that they are prepared to make available to the home loading market. Our problem is also that as we have to move up a couple of shot sizes in steel all of our loads are bulkier than the equivalent lead load. Pressure in this area from BASC and the other shooting organisations would be greatly appreciated!

When you say small bores, not aware of any eco wads available below 20gauge.

[Dave at kelton]

17 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

When you say small bores, not aware of any eco wads available below 20gauge.

You are correct nor am I and that is the problem. The cardboard cupwads I buy from Claygame are paired with an inverted cup wad as obturator which I make myself so I can produce an entirely degradable nontoxic load. The only plastic used is the cartridge case.

[rbrowning2]

7 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

You are correct nor am I and that is the problem. The cardboard cupwads I buy from Claygame are paired with an inverted cup wad as obturator which I make myself so I can produce an entirely degradable nontoxic load. The only plastic used is the cartridge case.

Nice, which is what Jocker are doing but the cardboard is not the same quality as the gamebore cups.

16ga paper cases are a nice fit inside a 12bore, one day will find time to cut one and try and make a wad.

[holloway]

3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

holloway - I note your reluctance to account for your postings. However, life is too short and I will leave it there.

likewise .

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Bernard said:

I, like every other hand loader, am aware of the clay and game fibre shot cups in 12 and 10 bores. I won’t get into the short comings or relative costs of these because that wasn’t the point of my post.
 

I asked about engagement from an advocacy organisation on behalf of the small part of its membership that hand-load for better access to higher quality, non-plastic components. These components are available and they are being rolled out in swathes as part of Fiocchi / B&Ps drive to get more of the UK market.

Thanks for clarifying, I am merely the messenger here. In that case suggest you email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk outlining the issues and what you would like BASC to do to help as a member of BASC on your behalf and others in your situation and I will see what can be done.

3 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Fibre shot cups

1) they are over £100 per 1000 just for the wads.

2) patent by gamebore years ago, patent now expired and no longer used by gamebore and 99.9% certain no more will be made in current gauges let alone other gauges. Costly and slow to manufacture, but simple to make with no expensive tooling required, via cardboard tube industry.

Barking up the wrong tree with them Conor.

However Jocker cartridges are using  the idea in a similar cardboard cup.

compostable/biodegradable/water soluble wads which can be made so much quicker by injection moulding are seen as the way forward, however very expensive tooling, moulds required.

Thanks I will pass that on also.

2 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

Connor, you are correct on the fibre shot cups but they are not suitable in small bores as they are too bulky requiring a thick wall to protect the barrels. We desperately need manufacturers to come up with an eco wad that they are prepared to make available to the home loading market. Our problem is also that as we have to move up a couple of shot sizes in steel all of our loads are bulkier than the equivalent lead load. Pressure in this area from BASC and the other shooting organisations would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks if you could also send me an email as a BASC member explaining all of this that would help. And indeed any other members reading this.

[Dave at kelton]

13 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for clarifying, I am merely the messenger here. In that case suggest you email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk outlining the issues and what you would like BASC to do to help as a member of BASC on your behalf and others in your situation and I will see what can be done.

Thanks I will pass that on also.

Thanks if you could also send me an email as a BASC member explaining all of this that would help. And indeed any other members reading this.

Will do when I get the chance

[Smudger687]

On 07/11/2023 at 17:16, rbrowning2 said:

Fibre shot cups

1) they are over £100 per 1000 just for the wads.

2) patent by gamebore years ago, patent now expired and no longer used by gamebore and 99.9% certain no more will be made in current gauges let alone other gauges. Costly and slow to manufacture, but simple to make with no expensive tooling required, via cardboard tube industry.

Barking up the wrong tree with them Conor.

However Jocker cartridges are using  the idea in a similar cardboard cup.

compostable/biodegradable/water soluble wads which can be made so much quicker by injection moulding are seen as the way forward, however very expensive tooling, moulds required.

Fibre shot cups of the sort sold by Clay & Game are mediocre performers;

1. They don't protect the chokes adequately from hard shot

2. They have a low capacity relative to how much space they take up

3. Wide tolerances/inconsistently made - I've had instances of the wall thickness on one side of the was being up to 0.5mm thinner than the other side.

4. Don't seal up at all by themselves. Either you use a plastic gas seal and completely void their only saving grace of biodegradability, or suffer the poor performance of a nitro card as the gas seal. 

5. Fall to bits as soon as they leave the muzzle, so they don't release the shot consistently which contributes to wild variations in patterns.

The card wads used by jocker are even worse - their 21g clay load scored the forcing cones on my gun during the very first outing with them.

Paper wads are not the future.