BASC tips on home loading your own shotgun cartridges

[holloway]

1 hour ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I am not thanks, the EU have two years ago reviewed the use of Lead and have banned it over wetlands in Feb 2023 and nothing else which is what we did many moons ago.  Not a blanket ban in sight.  Why did the UK decide to review Lead use when we were already equal to the EU's revised rules, why would that have stopped trade in Chemicals or was it after dialogue with BASC who have wanted a Lead ban since the days of John Swift.

Quote :

As of today, the 15^th of February 2023, using lead shot ammunition in wetlands is illegal in all 27 EU countries, as well as Iceland, Norway, and Lichtenstein. The law comes into force following a 2-year period given to the EU countries to prepare for the change.14 Feb 2023

I think you over estimate Bascs influence in all of this ,shooting in general needs to wake up to a changing  world and put its house in order or someone else will do it for them …..simple as that.

[Weihrauch17]

6 minutes ago, holloway said:

I think you over estimate Bascs influence in all of this ,shooting in general needs to wake up to a changing  world and put its house in order or someone else will do it for them …..simple as that.

Really the UK loves having equivalence with the EU, so why review Lead use when we already had it?  What would the worst outcome have been without BASC proposing a Lead Ban let's have a think, oh yes a Lead ban.  BASC have shafted the whole shooting community pure and simple and will price many out of shooting.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Weihrauch17

[rbrowning2]

8 hours ago, holloway said:

I think you over estimate Bascs influence in all of this ,shooting in general needs to wake up to a changing  world and put its house in order or someone else will do it for them …..simple as that.

on Monday 24th February 2020 BASC (and others) announced the five year voluntary transition for live quarry shooting away from lead shot and single use plastic wads. Why to give large commercial game shoots an appearance of respectability as the product must enter the food chain to be considered tenable to shoot it.

We are nearly four years into the transition period and it has failed to gain any significant traction.

Since 2020 indeed the world has changed a lot and certainly not for the better.

It’s not hard to see that the U.K. makes so little of the components required to manufacture steel shot cartridges it can never replace like for like demand without the rest of the worlds components and cartridge manufacturers meeting the demand, which in this current uncertain world is very unlikely to happen within the next two or five years as the HSE suggest.

It is not all bad seeing BASC doing an article on home loading, as home loading is delivering some interesting results, like 2mm tungsten shot being used in the .410 for wild fowling. Such articles may encourage more to home load and component like  biodegradable wads to then become available to the home loading market, rather than manufactures keeping them as unique selling points for their own cartridges.  However BASC needed to do their homework prior to publication.

As quoted to me,  home loading in this country is niche and only tolerated by the cartridge manufacturers rather than embraced like in most other countries, as they want to sell cartridges.

Edited November 4, 2023 by rbrowning2

[holloway]

11 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Really the UK loves having equivalence with the EU, so why review Lead use when we already had it?  What would the worst outcome have been without BASC proposing a Lead Ban let's have a think, oh yes a Lead ban.  BASC have shafted the whole shooting community pure and simple and will price many out of shooting.

ok

[Minky]

19 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for the feedback, some good points made (apart from the usual repetitive trite by some of the usual suspects) and I will pass this back to Chris for consideration for a follow-up piece.

I used to be a member of basc but at a country fair one year they had a stand and it was manned by a slick type salesman and a couple of  Dolly type females.  All they were interested in was for me to get my wallet out and get their fingers in to remove as many £20  notes as possible,  my thought was.. I am paying an annual sub to basic to support shooting and shooters interests.  So WHY are they paying third parties to harass my to buy quantities of raffle tickets at extravagant prices for junk that I didn't want or the slick salesman Trying his best as if his life depended on it for his job to sell me draw tickets for a CHANCE at  winning a car.  I  informed him that I would have to go to the bank manager to arrange a draw on my properties to get the CHANCE IN THIS DRAW.  Was there anyone to offer a cup of tea or a good biscuit... Nah.  Was there anyone to speak with about anything to do with shooting, hunting, guns, dogs or anything that was to do with the object of shooting sports.. Nahh. It's as if the organisation was infiltrated by person's who were totally opposed to anything to do with shooting and just use the funds to buy or obtain lovely shiny land rovers or range rovers, I forgot the new media centre.  Then there was the business of the wildfowling leases.  The dsc courses,  and the doctors certificates. Then there is the situation where some bright spark who came up with the idea of making it "Policy" that WITHIN.!! 5 years there could be no lead OR plastic on the shooting field.!  This barm pot idea was made and promoted several cartridge manufacturers to make a statement on a their Web pages totally rubbishing this idea  by the fact that there was no way this could happen because of component availability.  And the shear arrogance of promoting the link to their site above to a totally  useless reloading guide as if basic was higher than anyone else.  It's this nonsense that is typical of basc.  That's why basic keeps getting bashed on all sorts of forums.  I love shooting sport and that is why I have taken the time and trouble to type this out.  If I  didn't care, I'd have just gone and done something else.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Minky

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, Minky said:

And the shear arrogance of promoting the link to their site above to a totally  useless reloading guide as if basic was higher than anyone else. 

Wait till you see their advice on removing lead shot from clay grounds 😆

[Minky]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Wait till you see their advice on removing lead shot from clay grounds 😆

Well what wrong with that idea.?  It's  eco friendly and massages the worms.

[Dave at kelton]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Wait till you see their advice on removing lead shot from clay grounds 😆

At last…somebody with a sense of humour!😂

[Conor O'Gorman]

6 hours ago, Minky said:

I used to be a member of basc but at a country fair one year they had a stand and it was manned by a slick type salesman and a couple of  Dolly type females.  All they were interested in was for me to get my wallet out and get their fingers in to remove as many £20  notes as possible,  my thought was.. I am paying an annual sub to basic to support shooting and shooters interests.  So WHY are they paying third parties to harass my to buy quantities of raffle tickets at extravagant prices for junk that I didn't want or the slick salesman Trying his best as if his life depended on it for his job to sell me draw tickets for a CHANCE at  winning a car.  I  informed him that I would have to go to the bank manager to arrange a draw on my properties to get the CHANCE IN THIS DRAW.  Was there anyone to offer a cup of tea or a good biscuit... Nah.  Was there anyone to speak with about anything to do with shooting, hunting, guns, dogs or anything that was to do with the object of shooting sports.. Nahh. It's as if the organisation was infiltrated by person's who were totally opposed to anything to do with shooting and just use the funds to buy or obtain lovely shiny land rovers or range rovers, I forgot the new media centre.  Then there was the business of the wildfowling leases.  The dsc courses,  and the doctors certificates. Then there is the situation where some bright spark who came up with the idea of making it "Policy" that WITHIN.!! 5 years there could be no lead OR plastic on the shooting field.!  This barm pot idea was made and promoted several cartridge manufacturers to make a statement on a their Web pages totally rubbishing this idea  by the fact that there was no way this could happen because of component availability.  And the shear arrogance of promoting the link to their site above to a totally  useless reloading guide as if basic was higher than anyone else.  It's this nonsense that is typical of basc.  That's why basic keeps getting bashed on all sorts of forums.  I love shooting sport and that is why I have taken the time and trouble to type this out.  If I  didn't care, I'd have just gone and done something else.

I am sorry to hear that you have had that experience and subsequent view of BASC and I will PM you, and hopefully we can discuss further, and thereafter, I will pass constructive criticism back to colleagues as relevant.  

[sitsinhedges]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I am sorry to hear that you have had that experience and subsequent view of BASC and I will PM you, and hopefully we can discuss further, and thereafter, I will pass constructive criticism back to colleagues as relevant.  

It's too late.

[Conor O'Gorman]

21 hours ago, sitsinhedges said:

It's too late.

Why is it too late?

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 03/11/2023 at 22:22, Weihrauch17 said:

I am not thanks, the EU have two years ago reviewed the use of Lead and have banned it over wetlands in Feb 2023 and nothing else which is what we did many moons ago.  Not a blanket ban in sight.  Why did the UK decide to review Lead use when we were already equal to the EU's revised rules, why would that have stopped trade in Chemicals or was it after dialogue with BASC who have wanted a Lead ban since the days of John Swift.

Quote :

As of today, the 15^th of February 2023, using lead shot ammunition in wetlands is illegal in all 27 EU countries, as well as Iceland, Norway, and Lichtenstein. The law comes into force following a 2-year period given to the EU countries to prepare for the change.14 Feb 2023

The EU wetlands ban (which includes a 'no lead shot' buffer zone around wetlands) was round one, and BASC supported FACE in fighting against the buffer zone and other aspects - and the EU review leading up to that ban starting before Brexit. Round two as follows. For the last few years the European Chemicals Agency has also been reviewing lead ammunition with a full ban in mind, tasked to do so by the EU. And post-Brexit, over here, the UK government has tasked the HSE to review lead ammunition for England/Wales/Scotland. The EU process is one year ahead of what's been happening here and BASC has been supporting FACE with the fight against the EU ban. 

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

and BASC has been supporting FACE with the fight against the EU ban

So, in the mean time, to 'help' FACE, BASC thought they would agree with the HSE that lead should be banned for live quarry shooting across the board, and recommend clay grounds could continue using lead as long as they practiced the impossible task of regularly removing lead shot from their grounds? 

Very helpful. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So, in the mean time, to 'help' FACE, BASC thought they would agree with the HSE that lead should be banned for live quarry shooting across the board, and recommend clay grounds could continue using lead as long as they practiced the impossible task of regularly removing lead shot from their grounds? 

Very helpful. 

BASC is opposed to the HSE lead ban proposals. Have you responded to the latest HSE consultation? Did you submit a response to last year's six month HSE consultation?

[Gordon R]

Conor - I am a little confused. I have no idea what your last two questions have anything to do with the subject matter. They seem to be a poor attempt to cast a shadow over Rewulf. 

Quote

BASC remains fully committed to the five-year voluntary transition away from using lead shot for live quarry shooting

Is BASC for or against the use of lead shot? 

Could you refrain from the customary evasive responses and give  a straight answer.

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC is opposed to the HSE lead ban proposals

Conor, how can that statement be true , when BASC PROPOSED at least part of them ?

 

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Have you responded to the latest HSE consultation? Did you submit a response to last year's six month HSE consultation

Yes thanks, have you ?

 

11 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Is BASC for or against the use of lead shot? 

It's a tricky question for him Gordon, as he's just stated one thing, while actively supporting the polar opposite. 

[harkom]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

t's a tricky question for him Gordon, as he's just stated one thing, while actively supporting the polar opposite. 

Hence the reason why the outfit purporting to support shooters should be called BS&CON.....

[Conor O'Gorman]

17 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Conor - I am a little confused. I have no idea what your last two questions have anything to do with the subject matter. They seem to be a poor attempt to cast a shadow over Rewulf. 

Is BASC for or against the use of lead shot? 

Could you refrain from the customary evasive responses and give  a straight answer.

Gordon, BASC is opposed to the HSE lead ban proposals and we continue to encourage a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry. Have you responded to the latest HSE consultation? Did you submit a response to last year's six month HSE consultation?

[Conor O'Gorman]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

19 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Have you responded to the latest HSE consultation? Did you submit a response to last year's six month HSE consultation

Yes thanks, have you ?

Thanks. What was it like completing the HSE online survey? How long did it take? Is there any advice you could give to those considering submitting a response? Would you consider encouraging all the target shoots you are a member of to complete a response? 

[mellors]

On 03/11/2023 at 19:36, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for the feedback, some good points made (apart from the usual repetitive trite by some of the usual suspects) and I will pass this back to Chris for consideration for a follow-up piece.

I don't think it counts as feed back. He obviously hasn't got a clue what's going on. Just fill a page with something that is almost impossible to do now. Powder and wads are not available and what there is sellers up the price regularly even though there's been no deliveries for months. 

I'm not a usual suspect and also am a member since wagbi then on to basc and I'll tell you I'm more than disappointed with with your lack of action and answers. 

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 Have you responded to the latest HSE consultation? Did you submit a response to last year's six month HSE consultation?

Why do you persist with this nonsense?

 

Quote

Thanks. What was it like completing the HSE online survey? How long did it take? Is there any advice you could give to those considering submitting a response? Would you consider encouraging all the target shoots you are a member of to complete a response? 

Had you completed these yourself - you should already know. Do you ever read what you write?

Edited November 6, 2023 by Gordon R

[Old farrier]

Back on track 

will Basc be looking into the future supply chain of reloding components for its members and everyone else 

at a reasonable price 

look upon this as damage limitation 

 

[enfieldspares]

On 04/11/2023 at 08:23, rbrowning2 said:

on Monday 24th February 2020 BASC (and others) announced the five year voluntary transition for live quarry shooting away from lead shot and single use plastic wads. Why to give large commercial game shoots an appearance of respectability as the product must enter the food chain to be considered tenable to shoot it.

This and to deal with the issue of homeloading. Most clay grounds prohibit homeloaded ammunition and many syndicates and commercial shoots also do so. CPSA rules prohibit it totally on any registered event.

CPSA Rules:

AMMUNITION

2.50 Home load, black powder and tracer cartridges may not be used. The Referee may at any time take unfired cartridge(s) out of a shooter’s gun for examination and analysis. Any competitor found using prohibited cartridge(s) will be liable to disqualification.

Edited November 6, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Rewulf]

32 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Would you consider encouraging all the target shoots you are a member of to complete a response? 

Already done , some 90 different people have been informed.

 

33 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

What was it like completing the HSE online survey? How long did it take? Is there any advice you could give to those considering submitting a response?

5 minutes , and that includes comments , much of it not relevant to me personally, say what you feel.

But all that aside Conor, I think we both know where this will end up.
Lead will be banned for shotguns across the board, and I believe rifle ammunition will follow a few years later, Denmarks 26 year gap between banning lead shot, and next years ban on rifle ammunition will be followed by the UK , there just wont be 26 years between.
The EU wants private firearm ownership limiting, and because we cannot extract ourselves from the mire of Brussels dictatorial whims, we will see reduced ownership, to pretend otherwise is disingenuous and frankly, insulting.

Ill give you your due, you keep coming back and trying to convert the masses to your /BASC way of thinking, like all this was inevitable and we are moving with the times.
Id have a lot more respect if you had done what you did in 2015 and fought hard to save lead, even if losing was inevitable.
Its a constant theme in our exchanges where I ask what changed in BASCs attitude, what new science has become apparent ?
As far as I can see , none.
What has changed is BASCs direction towards preserving its big game shoot interests, and justifying them with some story about massive game export markets, that we both know dont actually exist.

I would really like to know if you believe some of the things that you said in these various threads, for instance, clay grounds being able to continue using lead if they clean it up after them?
Or, do you believe that the lead ban would really stop with lead shot ?
Its alright saying BASC fought hard to save lead air rifle pellets or 22lr, but in reality , if your stance is lead = toxic, end of , their time is limited.

Yet when faced with difficult questions, you either ignore them , or personally attack the questioner.
All we are asking is for some honesty, and I and many others dont feel like we are getting any ?

Going to steel with shotgun isnt the end of the world, Ive used it , its not bad, besides the extra cost, but it WILL put some people off, and shooters are , year on year giving up, and this will add to the exodus.
Smaller calibres, air and rimfire will fair worse, a lead ban on 22lr will kill hundreds of small bore clubs, but BASC doesnt seem remotely interested in this, its rarely mentioned in BASC press releases, which confirm this.

Anyway , thats a long enough rant for today !

[Old farrier]

22 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

This and to deal with the issue of homeloading. Most clay grounds prohibit homeloaded ammunition and many syndicates and commercial shoots also do so. CPSA rules prohibit it totally on any registered event.

CPSA Rules:

AMMUNITION

2.50 Home load, black powder and tracer cartridges may not be used. The Referee may at any time take unfired cartridge(s) out of a shooter’s gun for examination and analysis. Any competitor found using prohibited cartridge(s) will be liable to disqualification.

Good point

hadn’t considered the cpsa rule 

lot of clay grounds don’t allow steel as well