Junior Doctors Now About To Start A Six Day Strike ?

[Lloyd90]

On 14/01/2024 at 15:53, 12gauge82 said:

As highlighted earlier, prison officers and police don't.

Why are the critically ill less important than prisoners or law and order?

They don’t because they aren’t allowed to, not because they don’t want to.
 

Speak to any of them and they are seriously unhappy with the pay and conditions. 
 

July 2023 the Home Office reported record numbers of Police Officers quitting and noted they are in a staffing crisis. 
 

They’re also losing the experienced and trained staff and they’re being replaced with new recruits who are green, inexperienced and unskilled when starting out. 
 

Based off that, I’m unsure what point you’re trying to make.

That’s hardly a shining example of what it could be like if we banned medical staff from being allowed to strike. 

[udderlyoffroad]

Apparently the NHS has the money for 800 people engaged in diversity roles, of some kind or another.

It is and remains completely unaccountable for its failings.

And yes, whilst it receives £184m per day, its medical personnel should be banned from striking.

Lack of money is really not the problem with the NHS.

[Penelope]

On 13/01/2024 at 15:42, Yellow Bear said:

It will be the "jobs for the girls" middle managers with "non jobs" created by managers for their "mates" that should be hit hardest.

Like all those DEI non jobs that have been manufactured.

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

They don’t because they aren’t allowed to, not because they don’t want to.
 

Speak to any of them and they are seriously unhappy with the pay and conditions. 
 

July 2023 the Home Office reported record numbers of Police Officers quitting and noted they are in a staffing crisis. 
 

They’re also losing the experienced and trained staff and they’re being replaced with new recruits who are green, inexperienced and unskilled when starting out. 
 

Based off that, I’m unsure what point you’re trying to make.

That’s hardly a shining example of what it could be like if we banned medical staff from being allowed to strike. 

I don't disagree, perhaps a better question from myself would have been. Why should NHS staff be allowed to strike when police and prison are not. Why are prisoners and law and order more important than the critically ill?

[oowee]

47 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I don't disagree, perhaps a better question from myself would have been. Why should NHS staff be allowed to strike when police and prison are not. Why are prisoners and law and order more important than the critically ill?

Then they could work to rule instead. That would cause a headache. 

Crikey Bring back back imperial rule.  To hell with a free state. 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Then they could work to rule instead. That would cause a headache. 

Crikey Bring back back imperial rule.  To hell with a free state. 

I'm all for employees rights, but they must be balanced against the care of those they are responsible for if they walk out and I can't think of a profession where the consequences could be much worse.

[oowee]

57 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm all for employees rights, but they must be balanced against the care of those they are responsible for if they walk out and I can't think of a profession where the consequences could be much worse.

So you want to penalise them for having a caring profession? It's like charging the good samariton with jay walking, for crossing the road 🤣

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

So you want to penalise them for having a caring profession? It's like charging the good samariton with jay walking, for crossing the road 🤣

Not really, I believe if you take certain jobs and roles you also take the very serious responsibilitys that goes with it.

Should someone in the military run away if a major war starts and it could be dangerous for them?

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Not really, I believe if you take certain jobs and roles you also take the very serious responsibilitys that goes with it.

Should someone in the military run away if a major war starts and it could be dangerous for them?

I hear what you are saying but in that case if they cannot strike their pay should be locked to some sort of tracker so that they retain the parity they had in 2010. We can't have it both ways. Take away the right to strike but lock their pay. 

That said if you have insufficient workers you need some mechanism to attract more and pay seems like a good starter for 10. 

[Lloyd90]

They have a way of measuring their pay within the current free market / supply & demand system. 
 

They offer a certain amount of pay the the market decides if that offer means people who have the skills and potential to train to be Doctors are incentivised into the profession. 
 

If they get it right, we have enough doctors. 
 

If the jobs was so well paid and still attractive they could even cut the pay and still sufficiently staff the number of posts. 
 

We see this in lots of other professions. Out sourcing the work and “cutting costs/production costs”. 

On the flip side, if the pay / incentive is not sufficient then people will leave, not enter training, re-train etc. and we will struggle to fill posts.
 

This seems to be the system we have embraced … we seem to want a free market like above when it suits those making massive profits and pushing down workers wages. 
 

But when the opposite happens and they can’t push down wages anymore whilst easily filling posts people want to make it illegal for the current staff to go on strike? 
 

What next? Will you make it illegal for them to quit the NHS and go to work abroad? 
 

Or make it illegal for them to retrain into another profession? 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I hear what you are saying but in that case if they cannot strike their pay should be locked to some sort of tracker so that they retain the parity they had in 2010. We can't have it both ways. Take away the right to strike but lock their pay. 

That said if you have insufficient workers you need some mechanism to attract more and pay seems like a good starter for 10. 

Agreed 👍

[udderlyoffroad]

This discussion is all very well, but north of the border, the BMA equivalent have settled for less than half of the *unbelievable* 35% already asked for.

This is pure politicking on behalf of the BMA, and people are dying as a result.

The fact that more people are not up in arms about this is...well frankly insane.  Doctors refusing to treat cancer patients because they want 35% more money.  I'd get ban if I used the words I want to.

17 hours ago, oowee said:

Then they could work to rule instead. That would cause a headache. 

I suspect a good number of "our NHS heros" already do, and will magically start doing their job as soon as the evel torees are deposed and Sir Keir is crowned El Presidente, even though nothing else will have changed.

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

This discussion is all very well, but north of the border, the BMA equivalent have settled for less than half of the *unbelievable* 35% already asked for.

This is pure politicking on behalf of the BMA, and people are dying as a result.

The fact that more people are not up in arms about this is...well frankly insane.  Doctors refusing to treat cancer patients because they want 35% more money.  I'd get ban if I used the words I want to.

I suspect a good number of "our NHS heros" already do, and will magically start doing their job as soon as the evel torees are deposed and Sir Keir is crowned El Presidente, even though nothing else will have changed.

I don’t believe the Uk government has come anywhere near offering 1/2 of the 35% so unless that offers on the table how can it be accepted? 
 

 

Re the second statement. Just utter nonsense. 

You genuinely think doctors, nurses and other NHS are going to work day in and day out and intentionally not working or intentionally doing less than they can just because we have a Tory Government? 
 

I’d bet you 90% of NHS staff (and the general public) couldn’t tell you their local MP.
 

People like to moan about the government but get on with their lives. 
 

There’s no conspiracy of health care assistants plotting to bring down the Tories!
 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

40 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I don’t believe the Uk government has come anywhere near offering 1/2 of the 35% so unless that offers on the table how can it be accepted? 

Because it's an outrageous, politically motivated demand.

 

40 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

You genuinely think doctors, nurses and other NHS are going to work day in and day out and intentionally not working or intentionally doing less than they can just because we have a Tory Government? 

Open your eyes Lloyd90, the media and social media is chock full of activist staff.

In any other walk of life, people regularly absolutely slating their employer publicly like that wouldn't remain employed for very long.

 

41 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I’d bet you 90% of NHS staff (and the general public) couldn’t tell you their local MP.

What's your point?

I'd bet you 90% of NHS staff have no idea how much money the NHS gets per day, nor how much 'the correct' amount is.

Whilst they have funds for 'art projects' and slavery reparations, healthcare can go hang.  It is inexcusable. 

Maybe take a step back, see how countries just across the channel manage to provide actual healthcare, for the same or less cost than we do, then we can talk about so-called medical professionals and their avaricious demands.

[oowee]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

This discussion is all very well, but north of the border, the BMA equivalent have settled for less than half of the *unbelievable* 35% already asked for.

This is pure politicking on behalf of the BMA, and people are dying as a result.

The fact that more people are not up in arms about this is...well frankly insane.  Doctors refusing to treat cancer patients because they want 35% more money.  I'd get ban if I used the words I want to.

Maybe if UK govt would negotiate with the BMA a deal in the middle is doable. Your right this is Tory politicising and ineptitude. 

20 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

Maybe take a step back, see how countries just across the channel manage to provide actual healthcare, for the same or less cost than we do, then we can talk about so-called medical professionals and their avaricious demands.

I try not to look to Europe as it just reminds me of what a hole this country has become. Little England has no future. Open your eyes man step of the flat earth and embrace reality. 

We don't have enough doctors the pay is too low for the skills involved. 

[udderlyoffroad]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Maybe if UK govt would negotiate with the BMA a deal in the middle is doable. Your right this is Tory politicising and ineptitude. 

Why?  They represent a minority of militant, politically motivated doctors.

Sack the lot of 'em.  See if patients notice the difference.  Doubt it somehow.

I ask again, what is 'the correct' amount to spend on healthcare?

[oowee]

39 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Why?  They represent a minority of militant, politically motivated doctors.

Sack the lot of 'em.  See if patients notice the difference.  Doubt it somehow.

I ask again, what is 'the correct' amount to spend on healthcare?

We don't have enough doctors the pay is too low for the skills involved. 

We can't afford the service because it's an open ended contract. That's not the fault of the profession. 

It's the fault of directionless govt. Poorly informed electorate.

Low productivity, a shortage of tax payers, overburden of geriatrics. 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I try not to look to Europe as it just reminds me of what a hole this country has become. Little England has no future. Open your eyes man step of the flat earth and embrace reality. 

Those  2 sentences appear to contradict each other, or at the very least you not taking your own advice. 

Sooo, because we do things badly in this country, 'Europe' does it better, we shouldn't look to copy the best bits of the European system because we do it badly?

Makes no sense.

I'm regularly on continental Europe for work.  I do see reality.  I see what works about the European project and what does not. 

What does NOT work is that NHS waiting lists are now so bad, it's noticeable in terms of economic productivity.  People are off sick for eminently treatable conditions (knee replacements, cataracts, you name it) because treatment is so rationed.  Whereas, in most western European democracies they have no concept of a 'waiting list'.

Tell me with a straight face that the NHS is the answer to the problem of how to provide healthcare.  I see plenty of flat earthers, they're the ones saying we can afford to treat the whole world, for free at the point of need from a vanishingly small pool of net contributors.

To be fair, you've more or less said the same:

55 minutes ago, oowee said:

We can't afford the service because it's an open ended contract.

It needs replacing with an insurance based system, and free at the point of need has to stop.

 

56 minutes ago, oowee said:

Low productivity, a shortage of tax payers, overburden of geriatrics. 

The latter is a problem faced by all developed countries.  But let's not bring up the state sanctioned executions, sorry 'voluntary' euthanasia, debate again.

[oowee]

16 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

 

The latter is a problem faced by all developed countries.  But let's not bring up the state sanctioned executions, sorry 'voluntary' euthanasia, debate again.

Or immigration. 

Lets face it the majority of the UK does not want to do anything about anything that is going to directly affect them. Most are happy to blame the 'Wokes' (whatever they are) the left leaning militants (depends where your centre is) the Tories, or anything else. 

The NHS, immigration, taxation, co2, housing, transport, trade, all need to be addressed. None of the solutions are popular. The electoral system does not allow for structural change. We just have to endure the decline and hope it's slow enough for us not to notice. 

[Lloyd90]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Open your eyes Lloyd90, the media and social media is chock full of activist staff.

In any other walk of life, people regularly absolutely slating their employer publicly like that wouldn't remain employed for very long.

 

What's your point?

I'd bet you 90% of NHS staff have no idea how much money the NHS gets per day, nor how much 'the correct' amount is.

Whilst they have funds for 'art projects' and slavery reparations, healthcare can go hang.  It is inexcusable. 

Maybe take a step back, see how countries just across the channel manage to provide actual healthcare, for the same or less cost than we do, then we can talk about so-called medical professionals and their avaricious demands.

I work alongside the NHS, I see the staff daily, the vast vast vast majority of them are just getting on with the job. 
 

There are some radical activists, as there are in lots of jobs. 
 

In other walks of life in private companies you may get reprimanded, but staff criticising a public company aren’t in that position. 
 

Staff making false and slanderous claims will undoubtedly be talked to by their hospital / trust HR department or media team (you know, one of those people who works in one of those jobs that we supposedly don’t need). 
 

 

My point is, the idea that the majority of NHS staff are intentionally doing a bad job to undermine the Government is far from the truth. 
 

In 12-18 months time; those same staff will be working under a different Government, most likely labour. They will continue working just as hard as they are now. Many of the issues will continue and be the exact same. They will moan about a different Government, but as they are now, the vast vast majority of them will be getting on with their jobs doing their best to help and support people. 
 

 

I think we all agree however that the current system has many flaws and needs some sort of major reform. 

[old man]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

Maybe if UK govt would negotiate with the BMA a deal in the middle is doable. Your right this is Tory politicising and ineptitude. 

I try not to look to Europe as it just reminds me of what a hole this country has become. Little England has no future. Open your eyes man step of the flat earth and embrace reality. 

We don't have enough doctors the pay is too low for the skills involved. 

Well talking to my oldest nephew today, he a consultant anaesthetist, his wife a GP are seriously looking at Canada, his brother and partner both in GP training are considering their next moves? All brassed off.

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, old man said:

Well talking to my oldest nephew today, he a consultant anaesthetist, his wife a GP are seriously looking at Canada, his brother and partner both in GP training are considering their next moves? All brassed off.

It's such a waste of talent that we need here. Its the same for my daughter (GP in the next month)  and her husband ( Research Doctor with NHS). I want them to make a great life but at the same time hope they might stay. The salary offers and working conditions make the UK look like the dark ages. 

 

[amateur]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's such a waste of talent that we need here. Its the same for my daughter (GP in the next month)  and her husband ( Research Doctor with NHS). I want them to make a great life but at the same time hope they might stay. The salary offers and working conditions make the UK look like the dark ages. 

 

Of course, they may just wish to get away from the crushing risk of a Labour government for the next 5 years 🤣

[old man]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

It's such a waste of talent that we need here. Its the same for my daughter (GP in the next month)  and her husband ( Research Doctor with NHS). I want them to make a great life but at the same time hope they might stay. The salary offers and working conditions make the UK look like the dark ages. 

 

Seems to me that's exactly what successive polititicos have striven to create here for years? Anyone who has the opportunity to jump ship maybe  should before it sinks?

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, oowee said:

Or immigration. 

Lets face it the majority of the UK does not want to do anything about anything that is going to directly affect them. Most are happy to blame the 'Wokes' (whatever they are) the left leaning militants (depends where your centre is) the Tories, or anything else. 

The NHS, immigration, taxation, co2, housing, transport, trade, all need to be addressed. None of the solutions are popular. The electoral system does not allow for structural change. We just have to endure the decline and hope it's slow enough for us not to notice. 

On immigration 

The vast majority of the UK wants to seriously limit it and know that doing so would vastly improve their lives, both financially and the availability of all public services. It is the elites and the woke who either have a vested interest or are more concerned with virtue signaling to care about their fellow man.