Donald MacCallum Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 I have just bought a lovely E J Churchill xxv serial number 7780.I have been trying to find any history.Does anyone have any suggestions? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minky Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) Write to Churchill. Someone will have the original specs and may give other data. You know where you got it from so track it backwards as well1 Ps. why a thread with the title Donald..? Someone's bound to ask where's your trousers. 🤣 or is it about Donald Trump. Edited February 15 by Minky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Made in 1962. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benbobailey Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 10 hours ago, Donald MacCallum said: I have just bought a lovely E J Churchill xxv serial number 7780.I have been trying to find any history.Does anyone have any suggestions? Thank you. Hello Donald, the proof marks will provide info, as will the address on rib. The model spec may be engraved on bottom plate.( eg Regal ,Crown etc) Sidelock,boxlock, scroll back action, engraving style etc all help . Is it cased? The latest incarnation of the Churchill business are rather unforthcoming with assistance, but may be worth trying nonetheless. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 (edited) 12 minutes ago, wymberley said: Made in 1962. Would that have been pre Churchill, Atkin, Grant, & Lang ?? Edited February 16 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 9 hours ago, Minky said: Write to Churchill. Someone will have the original specs and may give other data. You know where you got it from so track it backwards as well1 Ps. why a thread with the title Donald..? Someone's bound to ask where's your trousers. 🤣 or is it about Donald Trump. Duck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 22 minutes ago, Westley said: Would that have been pre Churchill, Atkin, Grant, & Lang ?? Yes, by 2 years. If it's a boxlock odds on are it'll be a Regal and should the OP start looking into things this was originally called the 'Utility' but was renamed in WW2 because of the American connotation of that word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 28 minutes ago, wymberley said: Yes, by 2 years. . Thank you for that. I had a Henry Atkin boxlock, many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald MacCallum Posted February 16 Author Report Share Posted February 16 2 hours ago, benbobailey said: Hello Donald, the proof marks will provide info, as will the address on rib. The model spec may be engraved on bottom plate.( eg Regal ,Crown etc) Sidelock,boxlock, scroll back action, engraving style etc all help . Is it cased? The latest incarnation of the Churchill business are rather unforthcoming with assistance, but may be worth trying nonetheless. Regards Thank you for your help.The Churchill case does not come with the gun,I am waiting on one coming in.As you say,Churchill has been unresponsive.I had a look at proof mark which is crossed swords with lettering and the address is Orange St.Gunworks,Leicester Square,London.I had a look at proof mark history without accurately identifying it.It maybe Birmingham but unclear.I will continue delving as I would like to know more . Kind Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Proof marks decode sheet here https://www.hallowellco.com/birmingham_proof_house_date_code.htm By my reading, LB is 1960 for the date of proof (Birmingham) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 14 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Proof marks decode sheet here https://www.hallowellco.com/birmingham_proof_house_date_code.htm By my reading, LB is 1960 for the date of proof (Birmingham) Back in the day, anything could have happened. The House Of Churchill by Don Masters (joined Churchill in 1958) has it that the Serial Numbers for 1960 started at 7433 and for 1961, 7515. For 1962 they start at 7699. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald MacCallum Posted February 16 Author Report Share Posted February 16 16 minutes ago, wymberley said: Back in the day, anything could have happened. The House Of Churchill by Don Masters (joined Churchill in 1958) has it that the Serial Numbers for 1960 started at 7433 and for 1961, 7515. For 1962 they start at 7699. Thank you 39 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Proof marks decode sheet here https://www.hallowellco.com/birmingham_proof_house_date_code.htm By my reading, LB is 1960 for the date of proof (Birmingham) 3 hours ago, Dave at kelton said: Duck! It was very late🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 37 minutes ago, wymberley said: Back in the day, anything could have happened. The House Of Churchill by Don Masters (joined Churchill in 1958) has it that the Serial Numbers for 1960 started at 7433 and for 1961, 7515. For 1962 they start at 7699. The gun could easily have been proofed 2 years before sale/final delivery. I believe Churchill did not actually make his own guns but had them made ‘in the trade’, which would account for the Birmingham proof mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 1 minute ago, London Best said: I believe Churchill did not actually make his own guns but had them made ‘in the trade’, which would account for the Birmingham proof mark. A.A. Brown certainly made some, and no doubt other makers did as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 31 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: A.A. Brown certainly made some, and no doubt other makers did as well. Yep, as did S Wright which Churchills bought in 1960. 35 minutes ago, London Best said: The gun could easily have been proofed 2 years before sale/final delivery. I believe Churchill did not actually make his own guns but had them made ‘in the trade’, which would account for the Birmingham proof mark. The book mentioned above has all of the employees names and their specialist skills along with some other makers and also Churchills outworkers. 35 minutes ago, London Best said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minky Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Tracing the history from 1960 is hard. It my well be that fred was a stocker and Bert formed actions but if There is no Information from Churchill, the trail goes cold straight away. A gun like this has a trail and it is expensive enough to have only through a few hands. You know where you got it from so ask them where/who they got it from. All dealers keep records of guns bought in and sold out. You might be lucky and it was bought by someone who died and it was sold by the wife or a son sold it on. I'm sure that previous owners would love to know that their husband or dad's gun was in good hand and being used again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 18 minutes ago, Minky said: Tracing the history from 1960 is hard. It my well be that fred was a stocker and Bert formed actions but if There is no Information from Churchill, the trail goes cold straight away. A gun like this has a trail and it is expensive enough to have only through a few hands. You know where you got it from so ask them where/who they got it from. All dealers keep records of guns bought in and sold out. You might be lucky and it was bought by someone who died and it was sold by the wife or a son sold it on. I'm sure that previous owners would love to know that their husband or dad's gun was in good hand and being used again. Nice one, spot on. I don't know what has happened of late, but I had no trouble getting info' for my 1947 gun from Churchill - perhaps from whoever currently owned the records could be more accurate. I was supplied with a copy of the original work sheet which had the names of the tradesmen doing the various jobs and all of those names appear on the list of Churchills employees. I was also given a copy of the original purchase order and the buyer's name was a little unusual and his rank was also given.I had no trouble and soon found his son whose father was still alive and delighted to find that the gun was still in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald MacCallum Posted February 16 Author Report Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said: A.A. Brown certainly made some, and no doubt other makers did as well. Thank you for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald MacCallum Posted February 16 Author Report Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, wymberley said: Yep, as did S Wright which Churchills bought in 1960. The book mentioned above has all of the employees names and their specialist skills along with some other makers and also Churchills outworkers. 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Proof marks decode sheet here https://www.hallowellco.com/birmingham_proof_house_date_code.htm By my reading, LB is 1960 for the date of proof (Birmingham) 2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: A.A. Brown certainly made some, and no doubt other makers did as well. 1 hour ago, Minky said: Tracing the history from 1960 is hard. It my well be that fred was a stocker and Bert formed actions but if There is no Information from Churchill, the trail goes cold straight away. A gun like this has a trail and it is expensive enough to have only through a few hands. You know where you got it from so ask them where/who they got it from. All dealers keep records of guns bought in and sold out. You might be lucky and it was bought by someone who died and it was sold by the wife or a son sold it on. I'm sure that previous owners would love to know that their husband or dad's gun was in good hand and being used again. 37 minutes ago, wymberley said: Nice one, spot on. I don't know what has happened of late, but I had no trouble getting info' for my 1947 gun from Churchill - perhaps from whoever currently owned the records could be more accurate. I was supplied with a copy of the original work sheet which had the names of the tradesmen doing the various jobs and all of those names appear on the list of Churchills employees. I was also given a copy of the original purchase order and the buyer's name was a little unusual and his rank was also given.I had no trouble and soon found his son whose father was still alive and delighted to find that the gun was still in use. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald MacCallum Posted February 17 Author Report Share Posted February 17 On 16/02/2024 at 12:31, JohnfromUK said: Proof marks decode sheet here https://www.hallowellco.com/birmingham_proof_house_date_code.htm By my reading, LB is 1960 for the date of proof (Birmingham) Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald MacCallum Posted February 17 Author Report Share Posted February 17 On 15/02/2024 at 23:45, Minky said: Write to Churchill. Someone will have the original specs and may give other data. You know where you got it from so track it backwards as well1 Ps. why a thread with the title Donald..? Someone's bound to ask where's your trousers. 🤣 or is it about Donald Trump. On 16/02/2024 at 14:31, Minky said: Tracing the history from 1960 is hard. It my well be that fred was a stocker and Bert formed actions but if There is no Information from Churchill, the trail goes cold straight away. A gun like this has a trail and it is expensive enough to have only through a few hands. You know where you got it from so ask them where/who they got it from. All dealers keep records of guns bought in and sold out. You might be lucky and it was bought by someone who died and it was sold by the wife or a son sold it on. I'm sure that previous owners would love to know that their husband or dad's gun was in good hand and being used again. Just had this from Churchill. We do have the history for many of the EJ Churchill guns dating back to 1893. I can confirm that we do have the records for your particular gun in our archive. We do charge for this service and the cost is approx. £90. If this is something you would like to proceed with then I would be happy to assist you further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 6 minutes ago, Donald MacCallum said: We do charge for this service Unfortunately most known makers do charge now - even AyA (Spain) I believe now do (used to be a very helpful lady called Carmen who handled all the enquiries for history, but I believe she has retired), though the UK importers may still do a free service for UK imports I think. I have in the past got records for guns I have had from William Powell, Joseph Lang, Henry Atkin and all were free then, but I think all of those charge now. Someone did say that the number of enquiries had sky rocketed in post internet times and it was taking up a lot of time. I believe that many (possibly overseas) used to ask about guns they didn't actually own, but had seen in a dealers or at a show which was pushing the enquiries up dramatically and they would get a lot of enquiries about the same gun (presumably when it was listed for sale somewhere?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 H&H charged me £35, but that was in 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald MacCallum Posted February 17 Author Report Share Posted February 17 2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Unfortunately most known makers do charge now - even AyA (Spain) I believe now do (used to be a very helpful lady called Carmen who handled all the enquiries for history, but I believe she has retired), though the UK importers may still do a free service for UK imports I think. I have in the past got records for guns I have had from William Powell, Joseph Lang, Henry Atkin and all were free then, but I think all of those charge now. Someone did say that the number of enquiries had sky rocketed in post internet times and it was taking up a lot of time. I believe that many (possibly overseas) used to ask about guns they didn't actually own, but had seen in a dealers or at a show which was pushing the enquiries up dramatically and they would get a lot of enquiries about the same gun (presumably when it was listed for sale somewhere?). Thank you for your observations.I appreciate the need to charge a fee and I will follow it up to assuage my curiosity. 2 hours ago, London Best said: H&H charged me £35, but that was in 2012. That's inflation for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minky Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 (edited) The thing that I see about this is that If you go from Churchill( and pay a search fee) ok they might inform you that the gun was made by XYZ in 1960 for a customer ...Mr Bloggs of Somewhere but this is a dead end. that person is probably now dead ..SO where do you go now. It is far better to track the gun from this end. you know where /who you bought it from so start there and go backwards. You could still start the other end and at least you might get a start point. The history is interesting but not essential . Just go shoot it and enjoy it. Edited February 17 by Minky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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