ShootHub Podcast - lead shot latest with BASC's Terry Behan

[PeterHenry]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Thats right lead ammunition, first shot , then bullets, then copper (theyll produce some studies for that at some point)
Then your guns will be useless.
Call it a conspiracy if you like, I call it the future.

 

Lets not be silly here, and lets at least be truthful about why that particular camera was discontinued.

Press release
Hasselblad has, unfortunately, been forced to discontinue the manufacture of the XPan system with immediate effect. Hasselblad (UK) Limited has a small number of kits, but has said that it will not be able to get any more when they have run out, although there will be a supply of both 30mm and 90mm XPan lenses for a while more.

 

There are a number of reasons why the XPan cannot be continued, but the timing has been forced upon us by the European Community in the form of the Disposal of Hazardous Waste Regulations. These come into effect in mid July and prevent electronics manufacturers using lead solder in their circuit boards. The XPan is evidently manufactured using lead, and falls foul of these new rules. The cost of redesigning the circuits in a way that removes the need for lead solder is too high, given the declining worldwide sales of the camera. Consequently Hasselblad have been forced into the decision not to produce any more.

 

Given it was nearly 20 years ago I read about the Xpan being discontinued, you'll have to forgive me for mixing up circuit board design for lens design.

However, I cant help but notice you seem to be highlighting / drawing attention to the wrong part of the article. The relevant part is quoted below -

'forced upon us by the European Community in the form of the Disposal of Hazardous Waste Regulations. These come into effect in mid July and prevent electronics manufacturers using lead solder in their circuit boards.'

Do you really think that the world is going to slowly but surely carry on removing lead from everything, but strangley leave lead ammunition alone?

Because I think that would be a very strange position to adopt if looked at in the round.

Shooting has enough problems - but this isn't one of them.

 

Edited April 27 by PeterHenry

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

That's 2 people that have listened Conor, as ever the truth evades you yet again

 

If you listened to the podcast perhaps prove it by writing a review on the game meat market section. You have been banging on about that for weeks. I would have thought you would have had something to say on that had you truly listened to it. 

[London Best]

14 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

You don't think a lot of people are feeling the pinch money wise? I don't pretend to know your circumstances, but I know pepole in good jobs that are cutting back on non essentials because of mortgage rates.

I have not personally had a mortgage since 2002, but I don’t actually know/hear anybody complaining about the cost of living. All those interviewed on tv news who are complaining about cost of living all seem to have money for expensive tattoos, fags and body piercings, and other essential stuff. That is, hand-picked interviewees.

[PeterHenry]

10 minutes ago, London Best said:

I have not personally had a mortgage since 2002, but I don’t actually know/hear anybody complaining about the cost of living. All those interviewed on tv news who are complaining about cost of living all seem to have money for expensive tattoos, fags and body piercings, and other essential stuff. That is, hand-picked interviewees.

👍

[Konor]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

If you listened to the podcast perhaps prove it by writing a review on the game meat market section. You have been banging on about that for weeks. I would have thought you would have had something to say on that had you truly listened to it. 

Do you seriously think that an apparently pompous little arrogant man such as yourself who consistently avoids truthful discussion can dictate to me what I should be doing in my spare time to convince you that I am not a liar. 😂 Your cheek exceeds your ignorance of the subject you profess to be entitled to draw a salary for. 

Why not quit with the insults and quote the figures to support your beliefs or admit that you have no such information and your presence here is a waste of time. Zero conversions and virtually zero support other than those who have given up, fooled by the discredited data such as that from Payne and Green, those well known supporters of fieldsports. 

Are you too embarrassed to state you have no figures, ashamed, feelings of inadequacy? . You know it's alright to be wrong   unless of course you are inadequately trying to defend our fieldsports then it's just not acceptable. Pull yourself together and get on with the job we're paying you to do. 🤣And consider digging those figures out before posting yet another distracting statement to avoid answering the question. You'll note if you have read over my posts properly that I make a point of addressing anyone who comments on my posts in an honest manner, something you might consider trying. I don't mind people disagreeing with me and sometimes see their point of view. I can't however be doing with deliberately misleading half truths and I'm afraid that is what you specialise in. Point scoring without scoring any points. Incidentally I hope you are posting in your own time. I'd hate to think that I was subsidising having the wool pulled over my own eyes🤣

Edited April 27 by Konor

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That’s just your opinion. Suggest listening to the interview with Terry and then contact him. The alternative is to do nothing but moan on PW about a podcast you have not listened to.

Leadax is now being used instead of lead flashing on roofs. No anti roof builders conspiracy as far as I know. There may be a ‘save our lead flashing’ campaign out there perhaps?

Firstly I’m entitled to a opinion 

listening to the interview won’t qualify him any further 

min light of your rather blunt and almost insulting comments 

iv gone to considerable lengths to get some equipment that is compatibility with my hearing system and joined the 1.1 k others that listened to it I noted no comments on the podcast neither good or bad which I thought strange 

it confirmed my suspicions that he’s not a gunsmith hasn’t been one dosent bore and regular shotguns for lead or steel 

he did comment on swapping chokes and use of pattern sheets with a 50 gram load at a ridiculous distance 

seems his Main interest is wildfowling in bad weather and from some of his comments I’d wonder if he has actually grasped the difference between HP steel cartridge and normal steel shot cartridges 

now this is how I see it fixed choke guns are not recommended for the use of steel if they are more than half choke for lead  I along with many others have no interest in multi choke guns

so I would like to know how many thou to remove from my full and extra full choked gun to throw a full and extra full pattern with steel and not damage it I’m sure in the last four years your organisation has been doing research into this as they have many expert gunsmiths who travel the country with their sustainable ammunition days 

 

[Konor]

17 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Firstly I’m entitled to a opinion 

listening to the interview won’t qualify him any further 

min light of your rather blunt and almost insulting comments 

iv gone to considerable lengths to get some equipment that is compatibility with my hearing system and joined the 1.1 k others that listened to it I noted no comments on the podcast neither good or bad which I thought strange 

it confirmed my suspicions that he’s not a gunsmith hasn’t been one dosent bore and regular shotguns for lead or steel 

he did comment on swapping chokes and use of pattern sheets with a 50 gram load at a ridiculous distance 

seems his Main interest is wildfowling in bad weather and from some of his comments I’d wonder if he has actually grasped the difference between HP steel cartridge and normal steel shot cartridges 

now this is how I see it fixed choke guns are not recommended for the use of steel if they are more than half choke for lead  I along with many others have no interest in multi choke guns

so I would like to know how many thou to remove from my full and extra full choked gun to throw a full and extra full pattern with steel and not damage it I’m sure in the last four years your organisation has been doing research into this as they have many expert gunsmiths who travel the country with their sustainable ammunition days 

 

YouTube is probably a good source for the sort of information you are after if you can access it. There should be a few people on there patterning steel through various choke's. I looked at a few on the 3 1/2 inch magnum steel loads a while back I'm sure there will be others more suitable for you

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, PeterHenry said:

Forced upon us by the European Community in the form of the Disposal of Hazardous Waste Regulations. These come into effect in mid July and prevent electronics manufacturers using lead solder in their circuit boards.'

I see you missed a relevant bit too "There are a number of reasons why the XPan cannot be continued"

Now if the main reason is that they can't use lead solder, how are circuit boards made now days ? That's right , lead free solder !

Could it perhaps be anything to do with rise back in the early naughties of much cheaper digital offerings, and improvements in phone cameras.?

But if you can blame something on lead, that's the best bet for some isn't it?

Notice Conor hasn't replied to any questions lately , but keeps trying to dodge and insult ?

[Old farrier]

6 minutes ago, Konor said:

YouTube is probably a good source for the sort of information you are after if you can access it. There should be a few people on there patterning steel through various choke's. I looked at a few on the 3 1/2 inch magnum steel loads a while back I'm sure there will be others more suitable for you

Many thanks for the information I’ll look it up hopefully there will be a English gunsmith on there 

[PeterHenry]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

I see you missed a relevant bit too "There are a number of reasons why the XPan cannot be continued"

Now if the main reason is that they can't use lead solder, how are circuit boards made now days ? That's right , lead free solder !

Could it perhaps be anything to do with rise back in the early naughties of much cheaper digital offerings, and improvements in phone cameras.?

But if you can blame something on lead, that's the best bet for some isn't it?

Notice Conor hasn't replied to any questions lately , but keeps trying to dodge and insult ?

I think you have hit the nail on the head - lead free solder and lead free shot!!!

[Rewulf]

41 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I think you have hit the nail on the head - lead free solder and lead free shot!!!

I'll refer you back to my vision of the future, once it starts it won't stop until shooting is the reserve of the very wealthy.

[Gordon R]

In one of the links provided by Rewulf, I seem to recall that the amount of lead in a bird could have come from lead shot or from car engine emissions.

In terms of the lead free solder, it appears to have the same performance as lead solder and the same price. When the day arrives that manufacturers can provide shot / bullets with the same performance and price, which doesn't cause damage to a gun, I suspect no-one will take much convincing. I trust Conor O'Gorman won't say that the day as arrived, because Terry said so. If Terry said it was raining, I'm afraid I would need to go outside and check, as he was less than convincing.

In a rather bizarre response to Konor, Conor O'Gorman cast doubt on whether Konor had actually listened to the podcast. I have no idea why he would say such a frankly ridiculous thing, but Conor seemed quite proud of the game meat section. Terry seemed to see only one reason to go lead free - the commercial game market. He went on about that aspect so much, I was amazed that the  Carribean holidays, Carribean weather, replacing lead pipe on your own property only and wellies got a look in.

The environment, welfare of wee chicks etc. was given short shrift

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Do you seriously think that an apparently pompous little arrogant man such as yourself who consistently avoids truthful discussion can dictate to me what I should be doing in my spare time to convince you that I am not a liar. 😂 Your cheek exceeds your ignorance of the subject you profess to be entitled to draw a salary for. 

That rather unfortunate outburst does not deflect from the fact that you have not commented on the podcast. This thread is 12 pages now dominated by 53 posts from you on a podcast I don't think you have listened to unless you can prove otherwise. Gordon R and Old Farrier have been good enough to provide feedback on the podcast they listened to. Please listen to the podcast and report back for everyone's benefit on the game meat market section in particular, given that was apparently of particular interest to you in relation to the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

[Weihrauch17]

5 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That rather unfortunate outburst does not deflect from the fact that you have not commented on the podcast. This thread is 12 pages now dominated by 53 posts from you on a podcast I don't think you have listened to unless you can prove otherwise. Gordon R and Old Farrier have been good enough to provide feedback on the podcast they listened to. Please listen to the podcast and report back for everyone's benefit on the game meat market section in particular, given that was apparently of particular interest to you in relation to the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

How about some lines too 🤣.  Quite a bubble you have at BASC totally out of touch with the real world.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Firstly I’m entitled to a opinion 

listening to the interview won’t qualify him any further 

min light of your rather blunt and almost insulting comments 

iv gone to considerable lengths to get some equipment that is compatibility with my hearing system and joined the 1.1 k others that listened to it I noted no comments on the podcast neither good or bad which I thought strange 

it confirmed my suspicions that he’s not a gunsmith hasn’t been one dosent bore and regular shotguns for lead or steel 

he did comment on swapping chokes and use of pattern sheets with a 50 gram load at a ridiculous distance 

seems his Main interest is wildfowling in bad weather and from some of his comments I’d wonder if he has actually grasped the difference between HP steel cartridge and normal steel shot cartridges 

now this is how I see it fixed choke guns are not recommended for the use of steel if they are more than half choke for lead  I along with many others have no interest in multi choke guns

so I would like to know how many thou to remove from my full and extra full choked gun to throw a full and extra full pattern with steel and not damage it I’m sure in the last four years your organisation has been doing research into this as they have many expert gunsmiths who travel the country with their sustainable ammunition days 

 

Thanks for taking the time to listen to the podcast and the feedback which I will pass on. I am sure Terry would be happy to talk to you on the phone in relation to your queries.

[Conor O'Gorman]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Plenty of buzzards around though , how theyre not dying from eating all this carrion shot with lead ?

BASC's assessment in its response to the HSE, which I think you said you read, is that there is limited evidence for this risk and that is based on data outside GB.

[Konor]

35 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That rather unfortunate outburst does not deflect from the fact that you have not commented on the podcast. This thread is 12 pages now dominated by 53 posts from you on a podcast I don't think you have listened to unless you can prove otherwise. Gordon R and Old Farrier have been good enough to provide feedback on the podcast they listened to. Please listen to the podcast and report back for everyone's benefit on the game meat market section in particular, given that was apparently of particular interest to you in relation to the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

What you think Conor is the least of my concerns. Any argument to deflect from your inability to cite the evidence that prompts your inadequate defence of your views. If I was so inclined I could listen to it again but as I said a good few pages back I think the quality and content is woeful. That you find it such high quality only underlines your exceptionally low standards. In all honesty the content was memorable only in as much as the content failed to make any impression whatsoever and an experience I have no wish to repeat. Your politically driven tactic of continual diversion from answering my questions only demonstrates your inability. Happily witnessed by all those choosing to read this thread. Fortunately I feel no need to report back to what I consider, well let's not go there I'm sure you get the drift. 

Your behavior does shed a bit of light on BASCs toxic work environment fiasco however. 

You wrongfully state only one person has listened to the podcast then when shown evidence that I stated that I had also listened instead of accepting that your statement was incorrect you proceed to accuse me of lying. I think our debate shows who is more able to be trusted. You dont even have the courage to own up to having no figures to support your claims. Pitiful but not unexpected. I said I had the measure of you a long time ago and you prove me correct. 

Edited April 27 by Konor

[Old farrier]

17 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for taking the time to listen to the podcast and the feedback which I will pass on. I am sure Terry would be happy to talk to you on the phone in relation to your queries.

I d rather not chat on the phone thank you 

would far prefer my queries answered on here for all to see 

many thanks 

OF 

[PeterHenry]

45 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'll refer you back to my vision of the future, once it starts it won't stop until shooting is the reserve of the very wealthy.

🙄

[Conor O'Gorman]

9 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I d rather not chat on the phone thank you 

would far prefer my queries answered on here for all to see 

many thanks 

OF 

Your technical gunsmith related queries would be best explored with Terry in first instance. If there is anything useful arising from that then feel free to publish the info on here thereafter.

[Conor O'Gorman]

22 minutes ago, Konor said:

If I was so inclined I could listen to it again but as I said a good few pages back I think the quality and content is woeful.

Why do you think the quality and content was woeful? That is very lazy and vague. Please explain in more detail - I am especially interested in the game meat market section given you have been going on and on ad nauseum about game meat market for weeks. Furthermore you have posted over 50 comments in this thread and nothing of substance about the podcast. 

[McSpredder]

11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That review of research on lead levels in game meat is relevant to the HSE review. What is its relevance to the voluntary transition and the evidenced impact of lead shot on birds?

Relevance is that those who published the flawed evidence on human health were also involved in writing much of the information relating to wildlife and the environment.   Would their output on the latter topics be any more reliable?

 

HSE have appointed Rhys Green and Debbie Pain to advise on the lead ammunition restriction proposals.

The HSE dossier states that “Data which have been assessed by ECHA and/or LAG as reliable are considered to be of a sufficient standard for inclusion without duplicative detailed review and analysis by the Agency.”   Much of the LAG information was actually compiled by Green and Pain, and it now appears that HSE intends to reject any criticism of evidence from the LAG,

The LAG documents compiled in 2015 included:

• "An evaluation of the risks to wildlife in the UK from lead derived from ammunition" by Debbie Pain and Rhys Green

• "An evaluation of the risks to human health in the UK from lead derived from ammunition" drafted by Rhys Green and  Debbie Pain and endorsed by the PERA Subgroup of the LAG.

• "Consensus conclusions from two risk wildlife assessments carried out by members of the PERA Subgroup of the LAG" 

The PERA (Primary Evidence and Risk Assessment) Subgroup that endorsed the findings of Rhys Green and Debbie Pain was chaired by Prof Len Levy (who helped Green and Pain to prepare their 2012 paper on lead ammunition and human health), two of the other PERA members being Rhys Green and Debbie Pain.

Am I alone in thinking that all this sounds rather incestuous?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Start the countdown..............................................

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

Relevance is that those who published the flawed evidence on human health were also involved in writing much of the information relating to wildlife and the environment.   Would their output on the latter topics be any more reliable?

 

HSE have appointed Rhys Green and Debbie Pain to advise on the lead ammunition restriction proposals.

The HSE dossier states that “Data which have been assessed by ECHA and/or LAG as reliable are considered to be of a sufficient standard for inclusion without duplicative detailed review and analysis by the Agency.”   Much of the LAG information was actually compiled by Green and Pain, and it now appears that HSE intends to reject any criticism of evidence from the LAG,

The LAG documents compiled in 2015 included:

• "An evaluation of the risks to wildlife in the UK from lead derived from ammunition" by Debbie Pain and Rhys Green

• "An evaluation of the risks to human health in the UK from lead derived from ammunition" drafted by Rhys Green and  Debbie Pain and endorsed by the PERA Subgroup of the LAG.

• "Consensus conclusions from two risk wildlife assessments carried out by members of the PERA Subgroup of the LAG" 

The PERA (Primary Evidence and Risk Assessment) Subgroup that endorsed the findings of Rhys Green and Debbie Pain was chaired by Prof Len Levy (who helped Green and Pain to prepare their 2012 paper on lead ammunition and human health), two of the other PERA members being Rhys Green and Debbie Pain.

Am I alone in thinking that all this sounds rather incestuous?

This has been challenged and on record. 

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/113503/pdf/

 

[Konor]

36 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Furthermore you have posted over 50 comments in this thread and nothing of substance about the podcast. 

There is nothing of substance in the podcast unfortunately. 

In all your posts you have failed to address the question of your  inability to provide statistics to substantiate your claims surely a more important matter and of greater interest to all shooters ie your credibility 

 

Edited April 27 by Konor