More EU deception

[Aled]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/comment/brexit-likely-stay-done

That was a really interesting read John. 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Aled said:

That was a really interesting read John. 

The only think I'd add to all of that, is why no mention of the EU, who have clearly acted in bad faith, been obstructive at every turn and tried to 'punish' the UK, which has led to most of the challenges faced. It's why I'd have liked to see a hard brexit, it's like cutting off an abusive partner after a break up, trying to negotiate with them never works as their starting point is not trying to make mutually beneficial arrangements, rather they simply are trying to sabotage and hurt you.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

The only think I'd add to all of that, is why no mention of the EU, who have clearly acted in bad faith, been obstructive at every turn and tried to 'punish' the UK, which has led to most of the challenges faced. It's why I'd have liked to see a hard brexit, it's like cutting off an abusive partner after a break up, trying to negotiate with them never works as their starting point is not trying to make mutually beneficial arrangements, rather they simply are trying to sabotage and hurt you.

Where has the EU been obstructive. They have only just introduced the checks on goods as a last resort. They offered student exchange we said no. They have allowed the uk to join the research group. At every turn they ate trying to help their disabled neighbour. 

What would a hard brexit mean? No EU trade, no travel, close the border? 

Whilst like John says we have no choice but accept the decline the country has chosen but we can still hope to reverse it as soon as. Meanwhile we wait to hear of any benefit, anything at all. 😁

[Rewulf]

39 minutes ago, oowee said:

Where has the EU been obstructive. They have only just introduced the checks on goods as a last resort. They offered student exchange we said no. They have allowed the uk to join the research group. At every turn they ate trying to help their disabled neighbour. 

Disabled ? 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/369222/gdp-growth-forecast-western-europe-vs-major-economies/

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

Where has the EU been obstructive. They have only just introduced the checks on goods as a last resort. They offered student exchange we said no. They have allowed the uk to join the research group. At every turn they ate trying to help their disabled neighbour. 

What would a hard brexit mean? No EU trade, no travel, close the border? 

Whilst like John says we have no choice but accept the decline the country has chosen but we can still hope to reverse it as soon as. Meanwhile we wait to hear of any benefit, anything at all. 😁

Come off it Oowee, this is what I'm talking about above, do you honestly believe the EU has tried to make mutually beneficial and fair deals with the UK or do you accept that they have purposefully made at least some elements difficult for us, because if your answer is the former, I can't take you seriously.

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Disabled ? 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/369222/gdp-growth-forecast-western-europe-vs-major-economies/

Doesn't say which colours are which country on the chart?

[oowee]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Come off it Oowee, this is what I'm talking about above, do you honestly believe the EU has tried to make mutually beneficial and fair deals with the UK or do you accept that they have purposefully made at least some elements difficult for us, because if your answer is the former, I can't take you seriously.

Doesn't say which colours are which country on the chart?

So give me an example of the EU intransigence? Sticking to the EU standards? Protecting the EU from unfair product origins? Insisting on tarriffs commensurate with other third countries (as required by wto rules)? Imagine for a moment you are in charge of the EU one of the most powerful purchasing blocs, would you not insist that your rules were met my trading partners. Why would you be fair? Surely the best possible deal for the EU is the starting point. 

We can't have it both ways. In and share the cake or leave and clean up the crumbs. 

Here is another example of UK wanting it both ways.

Gibralter and failure to agree border movement checks. Like NI most of Gib voted to stay in. Like NI they could see the problems of being out. Recognise a pattern? All for what? 🤣

Edited May 16 by oowee

[bigroomboy]

13 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

An excellent and very insightful post John. I absolutely respect those who voted remain and I can't deny your reasoning for doing so is very logical. What has annoyed me with brexit, is very few on the remain side both politicians and the public will have an honest discussion and accept the pros and cons of brexit and many of the leave politicians to a much lesser extent the same, I'd say public in favour of leave are quite open about the cons of leaving providing they are genuine concerns. The problem with that situation is it made/makes it very difficult to make an informed decision about leave or remain and almost impossible to make good decisions going forwards due to the agendas and lies in the way.

Could you please point me in the direction of some pros please?

[12gauge82]

15 hours ago, oowee said:

So give me an example of the EU intransigence? Sticking to the EU standards? Protecting the EU from unfair product origins? Insisting on tarriffs commensurate with other third countries (as required by wto rules)? Imagine for a moment you are in charge of the EU one of the most powerful purchasing blocs, would you not insist that your rules were met my trading partners. Why would you be fair? Surely the best possible deal for the EU is the starting point. 

We can't have it both ways. In and share the cake or leave and clean up the crumbs. 

Here is another example of UK wanting it both ways.

Gibralter and failure to agree border movement checks. Like NI most of Gib voted to stay in. Like NI they could see the problems of being out. Recognise a pattern? All for what? 🤣

Having their cake and eating it is exactly what the EU have tried to do, they insist we must keep the rules they want or else, hardly the actions of a friend. At the moment far from having it both ways, we've got the worst of both worlds, due to our remainer Politicians and the fact they did everything they could to keep us in, to the UK's detriment. It's is why, towards the end of negotiations and the obvious brexit betrayal, I wanted a hard brexit severing all previous agreements, which would have caused some financial damage, due to the EU punishing us, but at least we'd have been free. The EU is a gangster organisation and like all mobs, will one day fall.

[12gauge82]

14 hours ago, bigroomboy said:

Could you please point me in the direction of some pros please?

Sure, some are actual benefits and some are potential, mainly because we've had remainer in charge who never believed in brexit and haven't seized the opportunitys.

The ability to negotiate our own trade deals.

The ability to buy superior products at cheaper rates from abroad without paying eu tarrifs 

We can set our own immigration levels, slowing unaffordable house price rises, improving pay for uk workers

Better security having the ability to decide who crosses our border

We can make our own laws and not be forced to accept eu ones

We could leave the human rights act and create our own one, fit for the modern era.

Set our own environmental standards and fishing quotas also who gets to fish our waters

That's just from the top of my head, there will of course be thousands of pros to brexit, depending how it's managed.

 

[spanj]

On 15/05/2024 at 20:42, oowee said:

There is nothing to get behind. We only signed away NI after we voted for it. They are laughing all the way to the bank. Far right groups in the EU are now saying we want to stay in the EU having seen the economic decline here. 

Hopefully we can still join the EU Arms race. 

You are quoting far right groups as something that should be taken notice of? You really are clutching at straws arent you

[enfieldspares]

15 hours ago, oowee said:

 

We can't have it both ways. In and share the cake or leave and clean up the crumbs. 

 

Yet people believed the liar Johnson and his cronies. Some really are easily fooled by a "posh boy" and his Latin quotes. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Sure, some are actual benefits and some are potential, mainly because we've had remainer in charge who never believed in brexit and haven't seized the opportunitys.

The ability to negotiate our own trade deals.

The ability to buy superior products at cheaper rates from abroad without paying eu tarrifs 

We can set our own immigration levels, slowing unaffordable house price rises, improving pay for uk workers

Better security having the ability to decide who crosses our border

We can make our own laws and not be forced to accept eu ones

We could leave the human rights act and create our own one, fit for the modern era.

Set our own environmental standards and fishing quotas also who gets to fish our waters

That's just from the top of my head, there will of course be thousands of pros to brexit, depending how it's managed.

 

Its a pity, and a betrayal, that hardly any of those are taken advantage of , so in thrall are our political class to the EU and its ideals.

A stronger Europe is better for everyone, EU members and non members alike, but when you have the unelected commission, so focused on a single (super) state, where everyone MUST sing from the same song sheet, there will be those that resist this loss of sovereignty.
Those that cant be bribed or bullied, will be ostracised, cut off from everything they have control of economically.
If they could go further they would, shades of the 1930s and nazi Germany ?
THATS why the EU army they want so badly, would be a disaster for the future.

[12gauge82]

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its a pity, and a betrayal, that hardly any of those are taken advantage of , so in thrall are our political class to the EU and its ideals.

A stronger Europe is better for everyone, EU members and non members alike, but when you have the unelected commission, so focused on a single (super) state, where everyone MUST sing from the same song sheet, there will be those that resist this loss of sovereignty.
Those that cant be bribed or bullied, will be ostracised, cut off from everything they have control of economically.
If they could go further they would, shades of the 1930s and nazi Germany ?
THATS why the EU army they want so badly, would be a disaster for the future.

Couldn't agree more.

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Its a pity, and a betrayal, that hardly any of those are taken advantage of , so in thrall are our political class to the EU and its ideals.

A stronger Europe is better for everyone, EU members and non members alike, but when you have the unelected commission, so focused on a single (super) state, where everyone MUST sing from the same song sheet, there will be those that resist this loss of sovereignty.
Those that cant be bribed or bullied, will be ostracised, cut off from everything they have control of economically.
If they could go further they would, shades of the 1930s and nazi Germany ?
THATS why the EU army they want so badly, would be a disaster for the future.

👍 As usual.

[oowee]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Sure, some are actual benefits and some are potential, mainly because we've had remainer in charge who never believed in brexit and haven't seized the opportunitys.

The ability to negotiate our own trade deals.

The ability to buy superior products at cheaper rates from abroad without paying eu tarrifs 

We can set our own immigration levels, slowing unaffordable house price rises, improving pay for uk workers

Better security having the ability to decide who crosses our border

We can make our own laws and not be forced to accept eu ones

We could leave the human rights act and create our own one, fit for the modern era.

Set our own environmental standards and fishing quotas also who gets to fish our waters

That's just from the top of my head, there will of course be thousands of pros to brexit, depending how it's managed.

 

So we throw out a hundred trade deals ro negotiate weaker deals in their place.

We never paid EU tariffs when we were in it. We do now even when buying from the EU. 

Setting our own immigration levels was within our membership mandate. No change.

Decide who crosses our border..... would that include those carrying Novichuck?

What laws have we made? What laws do we want to make?

Yes we can change our standards. Do we want to? Make them the same as the EU to assist trade or make them tougher to block trade? 

We could leave EHCR and we could become a dictatorship too I'd that's an advantage. 

Yes we could set our own fishing quotas but we want to sell the fish. Much of our catch goes abroad. We also want to protect fish before they enter uk waters so maybe just agree a common fishing policy? 

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, oowee said:

So we throw out a hundred trade deals ro negotiate weaker deals in their place.

At least were ALLOWED to negotiate our own trade deals now.

 

41 minutes ago, oowee said:

We never paid EU tariffs when we were in it. We do now even when buying from the EU. 

And vice versa.

 

41 minutes ago, oowee said:

Setting our own immigration levels was within our membership mandate. No change.

Err, free movement of people ?
We now have 5 million extra bodies, to claim benefits , schooling, medical bills , housing...
Worked out great didnt it ?

 

43 minutes ago, oowee said:

Decide who crosses our border..... would that include those carrying Novichuck?

Quotas from Syria ect ?
How have we ended up being the end of the road for the 3rd world ?

 

44 minutes ago, oowee said:

What laws have we made? What laws do we want to make?

Alignment , still serving the EU , politicians still yearning for the EU..

 

45 minutes ago, oowee said:

We could leave EHCR and we could become a dictatorship too I'd that's an advantage. 

Dictatorship doesnt follow leaving the ECHR, thats just silly.
Being beholden to a foreign court negates sovereignty.

 

48 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes we could set our own fishing quotas but we want to sell the fish. Much of our catch goes abroad. We also want to protect fish before they enter uk waters so maybe just agree a common fishing policy? 

It wouldnt be so bad if the foreign vessels fishing our waters followed EU rules.

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

So we throw out a hundred trade deals ro negotiate weaker deals in their place.

We never paid EU tariffs when we were in it. We do now even when buying from the EU. 

Setting our own immigration levels was within our membership mandate. No change.

Decide who crosses our border..... would that include those carrying Novichuck?

What laws have we made? What laws do we want to make?

Yes we can change our standards. Do we want to? Make them the same as the EU to assist trade or make them tougher to block trade? 

We could leave EHCR and we could become a dictatorship too I'd that's an advantage. 

Yes we could set our own fishing quotas but we want to sell the fish. Much of our catch goes abroad. We also want to protect fish before they enter uk waters so maybe just agree a common fishing policy? 

I believe it's this type of conversation that actually pushed alot of people from sitting on the fence to actually voting for Brexit. The complete failure by the vast majority on the remain side to acknowledge any benefits to brexit at all, which is utterly ludicrous, with a change as huge as brexit, of course there will be many, many positives the UK can capitalise on and of course there will also be many many negatives to. People ultimately got fed up, smelt a rat and voted to get out of dodge.

[bigroomboy]

9 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Sure, some are actual benefits and some are potential, mainly because we've had remainer in charge who never believed in brexit and haven't seized the opportunitys.

The ability to negotiate our own trade deals.

The ability to buy superior products at cheaper rates from abroad without paying eu tarrifs 

We can set our own immigration levels, slowing unaffordable house price rises, improving pay for uk workers

Better security having the ability to decide who crosses our border

We can make our own laws and not be forced to accept eu ones

We could leave the human rights act and create our own one, fit for the modern era.

Set our own environmental standards and fishing quotas also who gets to fish our waters

That's just from the top of my head, there will of course be thousands of pros to brexit, depending how it's managed.

 

Sorry for the questions.

Have we signed any trade deals on better terms since Brexit? And how.many more civil servants does it take to do this?

If this is the case how come immigration levels are higher after Brexit than before? In fact it looked like the highest levels we have ever had?

Have we created any significantly different laws? I remember there was talk of seeking benefits of removing GM regulations to seize a productivity benefit but as far as I can recall there wasn't public support and it didn't go anywhere so we remain with the same rules as the EU?

Looks like we will still be having a lead ban and similar laws on plastics etc.

Enjoying 6 months drinking beer in the Spanish sun seems to be out now? Where do all the criminals go these days? 

 

 

[oowee]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I believe it's this type of conversation that actually pushed alot of people from sitting on the fence to actually voting for Brexit. The complete failure by the vast majority on the remain side to acknowledge any benefits to brexit at all, which is utterly ludicrous, with a change as huge as brexit, of course there will be many, many positives the UK can capitalise on and of course there will also be many many negatives to. People ultimately got fed up, smelt a rat and voted to get out of dodge.

There are no benefits. It's a failure by those proposing Brexit to have any coherent proposals. Even now its slogan politics. 

I would love to see some benefit, anything but its worse than nothing, It's costing us in inflation, lack of workers, failing services etc. 

People always yern for something better and hope that change may bring it. People were tricked. 

Anyway moving on 😁 its a lovely evening. 

[armsid]

Why oh why do some people on here think the EU is some sort of utopia The President Vanderlayen was never elected by the people some states ring fence their industry to stop foreign buyers they also do as they like by not abiding by rules they dont like Look at Scotland (if anyone can remember) who were told by the EU to destroy their fishing boats in favour of the Spanish boats The wine lakes that benifited the Med. vinyards beef mountains the list goes on and we ditched the biggest market we had The Commonwealth in favour of a group of countries that have screwed us over .We are now giving millions in aid to some of these countries instead of trading with them We have lost all our industry just to make Germany masters of Europe Would you join a club where the ruling committee is never elected by the club membersbut you still have to abide by rules they make which cannot be debated or voted on   it is more like a failed Communist State 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

There are no benefits. It's a failure by those proposing Brexit to have any coherent proposals. Even now its slogan politics. 

I would love to see some benefit, anything but its worse than nothing, It's costing us in inflation, lack of workers, failing services etc. 

People always yern for something better and hope that change may bring it. People were tricked. 

Anyway moving on 😁 its a lovely evening. 

Oowee, that looks like heaven, brexit or no brexit, benefits or not, I should imagine all becomes very irrelevant when enjoying that. Take care out there 👌

[oowee]

11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Oowee, that looks like heaven, brexit or no brexit, benefits or not, I should imagine all becomes very irrelevant when enjoying that. Take care out there 👌

👍