The most significant research on shooting for a decade

[Conor O'Gorman]

This week the Value of Shooting report 2024 was published. Click the link below to read the details.

https://valueofshooting.co.uk/ 

This is timely evidence so perhaps use some of that information as most relevant to your shooting interests when contacting candidate MPs in your constituency ahead of the 4th July general election.

https://basc.org.uk/contact-your-parliamentary-candidates/ 

On a personal note, in posting about this report, I would like to stress the collaborative approach that was taken to carry out this research, and that is reflected in the diversity of shooting interests covered in the report, with the following organisations involved in various ways:

Association of Professional Shooting Instructors, British Association for Shooting and Conservation, British Deer Society, British Game Assurance, British Shooting Sports Council, Clay Pigeon Shooting Association, Country Land and Business Association, Countryside Alliance, Fifty Calibre Shooting Association, Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust, Game Farmers Association, Gun Trade Association, GunsOnPegs, Historic Breechloading Smallarms Association, National Rifle Association of the UK, National Smallbore Rifle Association, Preparatory Schools’ Rifle Association, Scottish Country Sports Tourism Group, Scottish Land & Estates, The Gun Trade Association, The Moorland Association, The National Gamekeeper' Organisation, The Scottish Association for Country Sports, United Kingdom Practical Shooting Association, Vintage Arms Association.
 

Edited June 5 by Conor O'Gorman

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well done to all concerned.   

[Conor O'Gorman]

Thanks @TIGHTCHOKE

Specific refs to pigeon shooting in main report were that 2.5m woodpigeons were taken, making up 2% of total game meat sales.

https://valueofshooting.co.uk/value-of-shooting-report/

 

[HantsRob]

Conor,

Great website to be fair, minus the page turning noise! But, really nice BASC supported site, along with support from all the other groups.

Question.... and I ask out of curiosity and not accusatory. But, what was the previous most significant bit of research 10+ years ago?

[Conor O'Gorman]

8 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Conor,

Great website to be fair, minus the page turning noise! But, really nice BASC supported site, along with support from all the other groups.

Question.... and I ask out of curiosity and not accusatory. But, what was the previous most significant bit of research 10+ years ago?

Thanks, it was the 2014 Value of Shooting report. And previous to that it was the 2006 report.

[HantsRob]

2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks, it was the 2014 Value of Shooting report. And previous to that it was the 2006 report.

I hope that influential partners see this report and absorb. It is a great site.

It is down to the lens, I would think the result on the lead ban will become the most significant research on shooting. But, I know that sounds negative, so I will revert back to saying great website and I enjoyed the read!

[jall25]

57 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks, it was the 2014 Value of Shooting report. And previous to that it was the 2006 report.

Conor

Morning - has any research being done on steel shot and how that is broken down by birds ?

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, HantsRob said:

, minus the page turning noise!

Mash the three dots button ( ... ) and press 'turn off sound'.  Or download the PDF.

[Conor O'Gorman]

31 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Conor

Morning - has any research being done on steel shot and how that is broken down by birds ?

Yes, here is one of several:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14567226/

[jall25]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes, here is one of several:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14567226/

 

Thank you - But as i read this i see steel retains most of its weight in its gizzard - and the bird does not eat as much - surely after further ingestion this will be fatal too ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, jall25 said:

 

Thank you - But as i read this i see steel retains most of its weight in its gizzard - and the bird does not eat as much - surely after further ingestion this will be fatal too ?

I don't know what would happen after the 30 days. Here is another study along similar lines that included steel shot https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9813836/

I don't know of any research that shows that steel shot ingestion causes any issues for birds and steel shot has being used for many decades worldwide. But if there is any research of that nature out there I would appreciate seeing it and passing on to colleagues.

Edited June 7 by Conor O'Gorman

[jall25]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I don't know what would happen after the 30 days. Here is another study along similar lines that included steel shot https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9813836/

I don't know of any research that shows that steel shot ingestion causes any issues for birds and steel shot has being used for many decades worldwide. But if there is any research of that nature out there I would appreciate seeing it and passing on to colleagues.

Thanks Conor

This is my thoughts - how do we not know we are simply jumping from frying pan to fire - or indeed inferno ?

80 odd percent of tungsten polymer was ingested from the gizzard if im reading that right ?

And 60 odd percent of steel simply remains in the gizzard ? - How full can this get before birds starve to death ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, jall25 said:

Thanks Conor

This is my thoughts - how do we not know we are simply jumping from frying pan to fire - or indeed inferno ?

80 odd percent of tungsten polymer was ingested from the gizzard if im reading that right ?

And 60 odd percent of steel simply remains in the gizzard ? - How full can this get before birds starve to death ?

My thought is why would we seek to overlook the obvious results in those experiments and instead speculate about results that did not happen. The first study found that 'Almost all (90%) of the Pb shot dosed birds died before the end of the study, while no mortality was observed in the steel or H-S dosed groups' and the second study found that 'Half of the lead-dosed ducks (five males, three females) died during the study, whereas no ducks died in the other dosage groups'. 

However, if you have conviction in your belief and concerns that steel shot ingestion might be causing birds to starve to death, how will you apply such findings to the future use of lead shot and steel shot on your shoot? 

[jall25]

25 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

My thought is why would we seek to overlook the obvious results in those experiments and instead speculate about results that did not happen. The first study found that 'Almost all (90%) of the Pb shot dosed birds died before the end of the study, while no mortality was observed in the steel or H-S dosed groups' and the second study found that 'Half of the lead-dosed ducks (five males, three females) died during the study, whereas no ducks died in the other dosage groups'. 

However, if you have conviction in your belief and concerns that steel shot ingestion might be causing birds to starve to death, how will you apply such findings to the future use of lead shot and steel shot on your shoot? 

Thanks Conor

I dont have conviction of that fact at all - Im asking you guys that are guiding us - and guiding us down this route 

To me it matters not if the birds die after 2 days or 2 months - neither are acceptable - 

30 days seems a very short period - would you not agree ?

Looking at tungsten with increased absorption and it knowns effects of causing cancer / strokes - i am just not sure the alternatives are much better 

 

[Old farrier]

So they were all force fed and those that didn’t die were killed to get the results 🤔

no research to show that they picked it while foraging for food or grit in a natural/open environment  

No science to suggest that game birds that eat in a different way to ducks would even pick them up

or that there would be enough in any area for them to take in enough pellets for a fatal dose 

[McSpredder]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

No science to suggest that game birds that eat in a different way to ducks would even pick them up or that there would be enough in any area for them to take in enough pellets for a fatal dose 

Reminds me of the much-quoted study by Potts, in which two partridge chicks ingested 13 and 14 pellets in a short time period.   I have always wondered how those chicks managed to find so many pellets, ‘in a predominantly arable environment where cultivation removes most of the shot from the soil surface’.   Is there any reason to think this was typical of the county as a whole, and appropriate for estimating incidence for the UK?   Might it be more likely that somebody had accidentally dropped a paper-cased cartridge, which disintegrated to leave 300 pellets in a very small area where those two chicks were living?  

 

G.R Potts (2005)  Incidence of ingested lead gunshot in wild grey partridges (Perdix perdix) from the UK

"It is remarkable that between 1968 and 1978, two chicks sampled from separate broods on the Sussex Downs had, within 3 weeks of hatching, ingested 13 and 14 lead shot. Moreover, the erosion of the individual shot suggests that they were ingested within a short discrete period of time. Somewhat similarly, a grey partridge in Denmark in 1976 had ingested 34 lead shot (Clausen and Wolstrup 1979), a grey partridge in Wiltshire in 1966, 26 (this study) and a pheasant on the Sussex Downs in 1970, 87 (Beer 1988). All these cases occurred in a predominantly arable environment where cultivation removes most of the shot from the soil surface (Esslinger and Klimstra 1983)"

[Old farrier]

Question for members who shoot live quarry 

have you ever found lead shot in a birds gizzard that you shot ? 
 

iv taken apart thousands of pigeons partridge and pheasants and can’t say i have ever seen or found any although to be fair i was looking for what they were eating in the way of crops 

never found any stones or gravel either 

[jall25]

4 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Question for members who shoot live quarry 

have you ever found lead shot in a birds gizzard that you shot ? 
 

iv taken apart thousands of pigeons partridge and pheasants and can’t say i have ever seen or found any although to be fair i was looking for what they were eating in the way of crops 

never found any stones or gravel either 

 

Hi Old Farrier

No i havent - but i think the thought is they die quite rapidly - My concern is - with steel will this shot not just kill the bird - which is terrible - but actually have time to manifest itself in muscles etc and then into the food chain - The honest answer is - i dont know 

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, jall25 said:

 

Hi Old Farrier

No i havent - but i think the thought is they die quite rapidly - My concern is - with steel will this shot not just kill the bird - which is terrible - but actually have time to manifest itself in muscles etc and then into the food chain - The honest answer is - i dont know 

I don’t know either 

My concern is the lack of real world science to show that birds eat it in a significant amount for it to be a problem 

so at the end of the season when we catch the birds up for the rearing field I’m going to run a metal detector over them and any that show positive results I’m going to dissect 

that being said the birds we catch up and use for the rearing fields don’t seem to die of ingested lead poisoning 

[welsh1]

Some posts removed, Ladies and Gents, i know that some of you are unhappy with this lead "ban" and you have in other threads made your points quite clear.

Some of you are constantly repeating the same thing over and over and directing it at the same person and that is taking it a bit to far, I am sure Connor is a big boy and can take all this flack, but from some quarters it is starting to look like cyber bullying, and we will not allow that.

So rein things in on all sides, otherwise we will start closing threads and handing out warnings to people.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Thank you @welsh1

Back to the OP, the 2024 Value of Shooting report is timely ahead of the general election, and the stats will continue to be relevant politically for years to come.

The report can be downloaded from the following weblink:

https://valueofshooting.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/05/The-Value-of-Shooting-2024-.pdf

Some of the main findings are:

• Shooting is worth £3.3bn annually to the UK economy (GVA).
• Shooting generates £9.3bn of wider economic activity in the UK economy.
• Shooting activities generate the equivalent of 67,000 full-time jobs.
• Shooters spend £4.4bn on their UK-based supply chain each year.
• Shooting providers and volunteers carry out conservation work to the value of £500m, equivalent to 26,000 full-time jobs and 14m workdays each year.
• Habitat management and conservation are carried out on 7.6m hectares as a result of shooting.

The estimated number of participants by shooting discipline in the UK are:

• Clay target 366,000 
• Game shooting 293,000
• Pest and predator control 255,000 
• Deer management/stalking 120,000
• Air rifle and pistol 106,000
• Small-bore rifle shooting 104,000 
• Full-bore rifle shooting 97,000 
• Wildfowling/inland duck and goose shooting 95,000

 

[jall25]

Sorry for taking off topic lads - i will set up a new page and if anyone ants to discuss further lets please try and keep things civil

I hope that does not come across as condescending as thats not my intention and i am really interested in peoples thoughts 

[Konor]

9 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Some posts removed, Ladies and Gents, i know that some of you are unhappy with this lead "ban" and you have in other threads made your points quite clear.

Some of you are constantly repeating the same thing over and over and directing it at the same person and that is taking it a bit to far, I am sure Connor is a big boy and can take all this flack, but from some quarters it is starting to look like cyber bullying, and we will not allow that.

So rein things in on all sides, otherwise we will start closing threads and handing out warnings to people.

I notice the post I made questioning the validity of research data procured from force feeding lead shot to birds being applied to free ranging birds has been removed and also the point that it would surely be more relevant to catch up birds at the end of the season and test them to ascertain the extent of any lead shot toxicity. Both these points were relevant in reply to earlier posts. and had not been posted previously in any other thread.I fail to see how they could be construed as cyber bullying and consider that they are valid points that merit a reply. In this instance I consider your deletions as censorship and contrary to the interests of open debate.

 I also notice that you continue to allow “evidence” to be presented supporting the banning of lead shot which is based on research data procured from force feeding/dosing birds with lead shot. I dispute the validity of such research when applied to free ranging game birds and question whether you should allow such information to continue to be presented as a valid reason to support restrictions on the use of lead shot inland.

Edited June 9 by Konor

[Cornish lad]

👍

[jall25]

3 hours ago, Konor said:

I notice the post I made questioning the validity of research data procured from force feeding lead shot to birds being applied to free ranging birds has been removed and also the point that it would surely be more relevant to catch up birds at the end of the season and test them to ascertain the extent of any lead shot toxicity. Both these points were relevant in reply to earlier posts. and had not been posted previously in any other thread.I fail to see how they could be construed as cyber bullying and consider that they are valid points that merit a reply. In this instance I consider your deletions as censorship and contrary to the interests of open debate.

 I also notice that you continue to allow “evidence” to be presented supporting the banning of lead shot which is based on research data procured from force feeding/dosing birds with lead shot. I dispute the validity of such research when applied to free ranging game birds and question whether you should allow such information to continue to be presented as a valid reason to support restrictions on the use of lead shot inland.

 

Morning Konor

Post on the new thread - then in fairness we are not spoiling Conors post - but yes i do agree - force feed enough water and they will die too