Are the Police safe to have guns?

[Rim Fire]

20 hours ago, Westley said:

We are criticising these Police Officers unmercifully and the most critical, will never be put into their situation. EVERY week at some shooting ground or other, I witness things that make me believe, a LOT of people should not have a gun, but they have. Regardless of what people believe, the standard of training that those Officers receive is very high, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to train, for what can be, an ever changing situation. Remember, they volunteer to carry a gun ON OUR BEHALF.  There are always going to be mistakes made, and far better decisions made in HINDSIGHT, when the full facts are disclosed  ! 

I'm afraid when the shoe is on the other foot they are the worst to criticize and as firearms holders we can see the mistakes that the officer is making as i said in this case they was chasing the dog if they had stood still the dog would have settled down for a better shot  to let several shots off in that environment was very dangerous they was lucky only a car was hit and not a member of the public    

[Westley]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm afraid the Police as an organisation are viewed as a joke these days and a bad one at that. That's not a slur on individual officers, although there are many useless, self serving people within the organisation to. 

To be honest, I think it's got so bad, there's very little even a good officer could do, they would probably become very frustrated and more sceptical of their own organisation than an outsider like me. 

The serving Officers that I know and socialise with are all, without exception, ticking off the days to their retirement. Some are retiring early, just to get out. With the criticism and pure hatred they face daily, from both inside and out, I don't blame them. The number of assaults on Emergency Workers has increased dramatically, some 40,000 Police Officers, last year. The work involved in getting a job to Court, only to see it kicked out, plea bargained or a slapped wrist penalty given, must make it so frustrating for the Officers concerned. There are more Officers leaving than joining, which leads to shortages. Having to work 12 hour shifts with rest days being cancelled with no prior warning,  it is no surprise that mistakes will be made. It will only get worse under a Labour Government too, I know that through 

3 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

I'm afraid when the shoe is on the other foot they are the worst to criticize and as firearms holders we can see the mistakes that the officer is making as i said in this case they was chasing the dog if they had stood still the dog would have settled down for a better shot  to let several shots off in that environment was very dangerous they was lucky only a car was hit and not a member of the public    

When a dog is as hyped up, or as scared as that animal, even if the entire street stood still, I can not see it rolling over to have its belly rubbed  ??

Edited July 2 by Westley

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, Westley said:

With the criticism and pure hatred they face daily

I think the better question is WHY they garner such hatred.

A lot of officers seem to be on something of a power trip.

41 minutes ago, Westley said:

When a dog is as hyped up, or as scared as that animal, even if the entire street stood still, I can not see it rolling over to have its belly rubbed  ?

I don't think the decision to kill the dog was a bad one, its just the way it was carried out.

It reminded me of a keystone cops comedy scene.

[Westley]

48 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think the better question is WHY they garner such hatred.

A lot of officers seem to be on something of a power trip.

I don't think the decision to kill the dog was a bad one, its just the way it was carried out.

It reminded me of a keystone cops comedy scene.

The hatred has always been there. Look at the riots in 1981. It's always the same section of Society .

Edited July 2 by Westley

[Rim Fire]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

The serving Officers that I know and socialise with are all, without exception, ticking off the days to their retirement. Some are retiring early, just to get out. With the criticism and pure hatred they face daily, from both inside and out, I don't blame them. The number of assaults on Emergency Workers has increased dramatically, some 40,000 Police Officers, last year. The work involved in getting a job to Court, only to see it kicked out, plea bargained or a slapped wrist penalty given, must make it so frustrating for the Officers concerned. There are more Officers leaving than joining, which leads to shortages. Having to work 12 hour shifts with rest days being cancelled with no prior warning,  it is no surprise that mistakes will be made. It will only get worse under a Labour Government too, I know that through 

When a dog is as hyped up, or as scared as that animal, even if the entire street stood still, I can not see it rolling over to have its belly rubbed  ??

The dog was hyped up because it was being chased by someone that was fireing at it if they had stood still the dog would brobly have given the officer a better shot 

[Rewulf]

53 minutes ago, Westley said:

The hatred has always been there. Look at the riots in 1981. It's always the same section of Society .

Ooh ! Controversial...

I was referring more to the growing disconnect between normal society and the police, social media has highlighted more and more heavy handedness, bias towards certain groups, and a disability to tackle 'real' crime, instead picking softer targets.
Also officers lack of knowledge on basic principles of law.

[Rem260]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Ooh ! Controversial...

I was referring more to the growing disconnect between normal society and the police, social media has highlighted more and more heavy handedness, bias towards certain groups, and a disability to tackle 'real' crime, instead picking softer targets.
Also officers lack of knowledge on basic principles of law.

 Do the police not come from normal society ? Are they not reflective of modern society ? Do they not police by consent ?

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Westley said:

The hatred has always been there. Look at the riots in 1981. It's always the same section of Society .

That's the problem, the hatred has probably always come from a certain element of society. But these days, it's the total disillusionment of the general public who no longer have any faith in the police force, or the officers who work for it. 

3 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

 Do the police not come from normal society ? Are they not reflective of modern society ? Do they not police by consent ?

They do, but so do criminals.

The organisation no longer shares the values of normal society and the organisation chooses individuals as officers who are prepared to uphold the organisations principles. 

In short I think policing by consent is long gone. 

[Rewulf]

Just now, Rem260 said:

Do the police not come from normal society ? Are they not reflective of modern society ? Do they not police by consent ?

Most of them do/are, but some get a little egotistical once they put the uniform on.

Lets not use a broad brush here, its not what Im saying , just like tarring ANY group just because there are a few bad apples, Ive met some great cops.
But the general idea that police have become more politicised , more 'woke' is not an imaginary thing.
While at the same time, there seems to be a focus on certain aspects of crime, other aspects, some might say the important ones to the general public, robbery and violence, seem to take a back seat.
 

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

In short I think policing by consent is long gone. 

This.
Also I think they forget they are public servants.

[Rem260]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Most of them do/are, but some get a little egotistical once they put the uniform on.

Lets not use a broad brush here, its not what Im saying , just like tarring ANY group just because there are a few bad apples, Ive met some great cops.
But the general idea that police have become more politicised , more 'woke' is not an imaginary thing.
While at the same time, there seems to be a focus on certain aspects of crime, other aspects, some might say the important ones to the general public, robbery and violence, seem to take a back seat.
 

This.
Also I think they forget they are public servants.

The politicisation of the police has happened because the public has allowed it too. Society over the last 20 years has steadily become obsessed with using any ism to accuse the police of not taking that ism seriously. Also politicians mainly from the left/liberal side have used it as means of promoting themselves in their communities. This has been to the detriment of normal crime which affects people's day to day lives. Society is just not concerned enough. You dont see marches for victims of burglary.  Even when the police have the offenders on video committing criminal damage juries from normal society find them "Not Guilty"

 

 

[Bigbob]

3 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

The dog was hyped up because it was being chased by someone that was fireing at it if they had stood still the dog would brobly have given the officer a better shot 

Thats what i said on the first page 

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Society is just not concerned enough.

Society is very concerned, they lack the instruments to force the police to take real crime more seriously.
Often crimes like burglary or theft are often not investigated at all, you just get a crime number for insurance purposes.
They will tell you they lack the resources, or money to do the job properly, yet post something dodgy on social media and they will soon find those resources.

 

[12gauge82]

42 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

The politicisation of the police has happened because the public has allowed it too. Society over the last 20 years has steadily become obsessed with using any ism to accuse the police of not taking that ism seriously. Also politicians mainly from the left/liberal side have used it as means of promoting themselves in their communities. This has been to the detriment of normal crime which affects people's day to day lives. Society is just not concerned enough. You dont see marches for victims of burglary.  Even when the police have the offenders on video committing criminal damage juries from normal society find them "Not Guilty"

 

 

So your going to blame the general public for strategic police failures. 

[Westley]

6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

So your going to blame the general public for strategic police failures. 

Worry not, there will be a Labour Government along shortly to fix all of these problems. We are all about to be saved  !     😂

[Rem260]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Society is very concerned, they lack the instruments to force the police to take real crime more seriously.
Often crimes like burglary or theft are often not investigated at all, you just get a crime number for insurance purposes.
They will tell you they lack the resources, or money to do the job properly, yet post something dodgy on social media and they will soon find those resources.

 

 This just another example of how outside interference has been allowed to interfere with policing. The climate within the police is that they would be crucified if they told the complainants to stop waisting police time. Especially given that both the MP and PCC are from the left. 

[Rem260]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

So your going to blame the general public for strategic police failures. 

The police are held to account by PCC's and MP's. These are in turn held to account by those who voted them in and they are "The general public"

[Bobba]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Also I think they forget they are public servants.

I think it’s more basic than that. They have forgotten, or in modern times probably never even heard of, Sir Robert Peel’s Policing Principles. Nor probably have ever even heard of Sir Robert Peel.

Given that he established the London metropolitan police force he must be turning in his grave in looking at them now.

[Gordon R]

The average policeman / woman - I have no problem with. Despite the odd individual, the vast majority are thoroughly decent people. That said - "lions lead by donkeys" springs to mind. The ranks have to follow whatever woke policy is being peddled from above.

Stephen Watson the Chief Constable of GMP seems to be having a go at turning back the clock to when the police commanded respect. Whilst he might be angling for the top job at the Met, he seems to be trying to roll back the years to when we had the best Chief Constable in the country - Jim Anderton.

[Rim Fire]

1 hour ago, Bigbob said:

Thats what i said on the first page 

👍

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Rem260 said:

The police are held to account by PCC's and MP's. These are in turn held to account by those who voted them in and they are "The general public"

Yes I get that, but as Westley seemed to acknowledge, the police are no longer carrying out policing in a manner the public finds acceptable, the wrongs and rights of that we could discuss for hours. The point is, the police no longer police by consent, which is one of its core principles, it is therefore a broken entity and to bring it back to what started this conversation, is why the public has lost faith in them. 

[Gordon R]

When you see police asking just stop oil idiots if they are okay or would like a cup of tea.

When you see Hamas supporters waving flags unchallenged.

When you see people told to take down a Union Jack or English flag (albeit the Council morons are to blame for that one)

When you see police watching statues being torn down or buildings sprayed.

Then you see an impotent police force losing public trust before your very eyes.

They need to be allowed to go back to upholding the law - firmly.

I see Police programmes where people are let off with a lesser offence or no further action taken, despite being caught on camera. I do wonder if it is the CPS who are not fit for purpose, officers too lazy to do the paperwork or management encouraging them not to fill up the prisons. It all erodes trust.

[12gauge82]

14 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

When you see police asking just stop oil idiots if they are okay or would like a cup of tea.

When you see Hamas supporters waving flags unchallenged.

When you see people told to take down a Union Jack or English flag (albeit the Council morons are to blame for that one)

When you see police watching statues being torn down or buildings sprayed.

Then you see an impotent police force losing public trust before your very eyes.

They need to be allowed to go back to upholding the law - firmly.

I see Police programmes where people are let off with a lesser offence or no further action taken, despite being caught on camera. I do wonder if it is the CPS who are not fit for purpose, officers too lazy to do the paperwork or management encouraging them not to fill up the prisons. It all erodes trust.

Couldn't say it better Gordon 👌

[Westley]

31 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

When you see police asking just stop oil idiots if they are okay or would like a cup of tea.

When you see Hamas supporters waving flags unchallenged.

When you see people told to take down a Union Jack or English flag (albeit the Council morons are to blame for that one)

When you see police watching statues being torn down or buildings sprayed.

Then you see an impotent police force losing public trust before your very eyes.

They need to be allowed to go back to upholding the law - firmly.

I see Police programmes where people are let off with a lesser offence or no further action taken, despite being caught on camera. I do wonder if it is the CPS who are not fit for purpose, officers too lazy to do the paperwork or management encouraging them not to fill up the prisons. It all erodes trust.

I certainly don't believe it is the Police at fault for the failures of the legal system. It comes to something when a group responsible for a spate of aggravated burglaries, have to be followed for some 6 weeks in order to 'catch them in the act' before the CPS will consider taking it to Court. Of course, guess who would have been blamed if during this 'catchem in the act'. the householder had been attacked  ?   When 'NOT Gulty' to Murder is dropped to a plea of Guilty to Manslaughter, to save a trial of maybe weeks. Ends up with the culprit doing 3 years  ?  I could state plenty more of similar cases. The system is not fit for purpose. You can only hang them once, they tend NOT to re offend  !

The problem with making arrests at demonstrations or large scale disturbances,  it takes 2 Police Officers away per prisoner and the thin blue line becomes even thinner.  I think the numbers of 'boxes of Bobbies' stored has dropped dramatically, opening another box is no longer an option. 

[B686]

I don’t think police are allowed to be proper police like they were 35 years or so ago . People have no respect for them now . You see these gobby little ***** they arrest on tv the way they act years ago they wouldn’t be like that because they would get a slap . Nowadays it seems they have to be so careful what they do as if they are scared of being accused of assault or the new favourite word being accused of being racist. I wouldn’t want their job .

[Westley]

It summed it up for me when a Bobby being interviewed about Youths causing annoyance, put it beautifully  !   He stated that "we are the first people who have ever told these kids  'NO'  and they are unable to handle that.  😄