BobbyH Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 Hey all, I’m about to go shoot my Webley and Scott .410, and looking on the proof marks, it says BNP with some others. Does this mean I can shoot steel through it? I know the whole no tighter than 1/2 choke, but I assume it’s choked quite tight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 Hello, Not familiar with W and S markings , Standard steel maybe ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 (edited) Steel proofed is a Fleur De Lys symbol. Do not use steel bigger than uk no7 in a 410. Due to 410 choke constrictions being so variable. Measure your chokes. Anything tighter than 0.400 will not be suitable for steel. Most USA YouTube videos shooting steel in 410 are using Cylinder choke and shot sizes 7, 8 and 9 Above all, pattern your gun at 25 yards before going into the field! Edited December 1 by Stonepark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOPGUN749 Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 (edited) The single shot Webley bolt action is 2.5 inch chambers,and half chokeThe 3 shot is 3”, I would stick with lead as long as possible,or standard steel with small shot. Not sure about the Turkish versions. Edited December 1 by TOPGUN749 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 BNP means merely that it was proved with modern smokeless powder at Birmingham Proof House after 1955. In simple parlance the two pre-1955 stamps NP and BP of what would then have been three BV, BP and NP became one stamp BNP for Birmingham Nitro(cellulose) Proof. Now it is said by some that any post-1955 proved gun of up to half choke is suitable for standard steel cartridges (not "high performance" steel but "standard" steel) as long as the size of shot used is less that a particular diameter. However as others say I would not want to use any steel in a 2 1/2" chambered .410" with the believed choke that these bolt action Webley guns were nominally made in. Either use lead or if what you shoot or where you shoot requires, nay mandates, non-lead then put the .410 away and use a suitably choked 20 bore or 12 bore with standard steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 1 Author Report Share Posted December 1 Thanks all for the replies. I have a steel proofed .410, but I was just curious about this little pop gun is all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 I was under the belief standard steel can be fired through ANY choke. Isn’t there a ‘pinned’ list regarding steel shot, submitted by David BASC at the top of the ‘Wildfowling’ section? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Scully said: I was under the belief standard steel can be fired through ANY choke. Isn’t there a ‘pinned’ list regarding steel shot, submitted by David BASC at the top of the ‘Wildfowling’ section? Hope this helps. NOTE WELL - SEE LINK - THAT THE "PROOF SYMBOLS" REFERENCED ARE FOR 1954 RULES OF PROOF AND SUBSEQUENT ITERATIONS. I've cut and pasted the wordage and then below a link to the actual resource. Use of Steel Shot Ammunition There is much confusion over what steel ammunition can and can’t be used with shotguns bearing both CIP proof marks and historic national proof marks, or “proof symbols” as we prefer to refer to them. We will attempt to explain in the simplest terms possible what ammunition may be used with the relevant proof symbol. It must be understood there are two types of steel ammunition, Standard Steel & High Performance Steel. Standard Steel ammunition can be used with any shotgun (other than Damascus/twist barrelled guns), in good order, bearing any of the above CIP, London or Birmingham symbols, provided the ammunition is of the correct length for the chamber and the barrel choking is less than half choke (some small cosmetic choke damage may still be incurred, even under these conditions). Ammunition packaging should denote that the ammunition is Standard Steel. However, if at all unsure whether your ammunition is Standard Steel, please consult the manufacturer. If you’re unsure whether your shotgun is suitable for use with Standard Steel ammunition please contact a competent gun dealer, gunsmith or the British Proof Authority for advice, this may involve the submission of your shotgun for inspection. High Performance Steel ammunition can only be used with shotguns bearing a CIP fleur de Lys mark, as represented in the above table. The ammunition should be of the correct length for the chamber. The CIP recommends less or equal to half choke in relation to a given shot diameter for the Bore, please see the table below for clarification. Bore Maximum Recommended Choke Restriction Shot Diameters 10 & 12 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 4mm (> 4mm) 16 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 3.5mm (> 3.5mm) 20 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 3.25mm (> 3.25mm) 28 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 3mm (> 3mm) .410 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 2.5mm (> 2.5mm) Ammunition packaging should denote that the ammunition is High Performance Steel. However, if unsure whether your ammunition is High Performance Steel, please consult the manufacturer. If unsure whether your shotgun is suitable for use with High Performance Steel ammunition please contact a competent gun dealer, gunsmith or the British Proof Authority for advice, this may involve the submission of your shotgun for inspection. https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1106151/Proofing.pdf Edited December 1 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 1 Author Report Share Posted December 1 Thankyou enfieldspares, I need to find out what choke it has on it now. I can’t find a choke gauge for .410 sadly, as I believe that choking is quite a mystery in the works of small calibres! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 Can I ask, please, why the need to or thinking about using steel in your Webley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 1 Author Report Share Posted December 1 I’m only thinking about it because of the whole potential lead ban, and I reload my own steel carts anyway, both 2.5inch and 3 inch. So I saw some proof marks on it and just was curious is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 (edited) Got it. I have, sat next to where I am sat, a MEC 600 for 2 1/2" .410 and my intention for live quarry shooting would be to load my own bismuth for my AYA No4 .410" in the future. For I believe that we have an advantage! The cost of the bismuth used to handload compared to the cost of the factory loaded product in .410 loaded with bismuth makes the saving worthwhile. In 12 bore and such it doesn't but, at least it seems to me, that in .410 it does. The only problem seems to be getting any sort of fibre wad here in the UK in .410! Edited December 1 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 5 minutes ago, BobbyH said: I’m only thinking about it because of the whole potential lead ban, and I reload my own steel carts anyway, both 2.5inch and 3 inch. So I saw some proof marks on it and just was curious is all. I can’t believe you don’t understand proof marks but think yourself competent to load ammunition! What could possibly go wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 1 Author Report Share Posted December 1 4 minutes ago, London Best said: I can’t believe you don’t understand proof marks but think yourself competent to load ammunition! What could possibly go wrong? Exactly! What could go wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 1 hour ago, enfieldspares said: Got it. I have, sat next to where I am sat, a MEC 600 for 2 1/2" .410 and my intention for live quarry shooting would be to load my own bismuth for my AYA No4 .410" in the future. For I believe that we have an advantage! The cost of the bismuth used to handload compared to the cost of the factory loaded product in .410 loaded with bismuth makes the saving worthwhile. In 12 bore and such it doesn't but, at least it seems to me, that in .410 it does. The only problem seems to be getting any sort of fibre wad here in the UK in .410! Hello, Could you not make your own fibre wad or maybe cork , I am sure i have seen someone using cork sheet for wads, you can get round cutters like a saddler uses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 1 Author Report Share Posted December 1 57 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, Could you not make your own fibre wad or maybe cork , I am sure i have seen someone using cork sheet for wads, you can get round cutters like a saddler uses I have loads of .410 Fibre wads sat here, overshot cards too. .410 is cheap to reload, I load both lead and steel with huge savings! Im going to try fibre steel loads soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 2 hours ago, enfieldspares said: or “proof symbols” as we prefer to refer to them. Well, GWCT, you can call them whatever you want but they'll still be 'proof marks'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 2 hours ago, BobbyH said: Thankyou enfieldspares, I need to find out what choke it has on it now. I can’t find a choke gauge for .410 sadly, as I believe that choking is quite a mystery in the works of small calibres! The Teague website gives the full range of choke dimensions for the 410. If it's for just a one off check then a competent RFD should be able to give you your answer, but thanks to the Chinese and with some practice a long reach telescopic bore gauge/micrometer is perfectly capable of giving the answer plus or minus the odd thou' should you need to do it on occasion and without costing the earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 2 hours ago, enfieldspares said: Hope this helps. NOTE WELL - SEE LINK - THAT THE "PROOF SYMBOLS" REFERENCED ARE FOR 1954 RULES OF PROOF AND SUBSEQUENT ITERATIONS. I've cut and pasted the wordage and then below a link to the actual resource. Use of Steel Shot Ammunition There is much confusion over what steel ammunition can and can’t be used with shotguns bearing both CIP proof marks and historic national proof marks, or “proof symbols” as we prefer to refer to them. We will attempt to explain in the simplest terms possible what ammunition may be used with the relevant proof symbol. It must be understood there are two types of steel ammunition, Standard Steel & High Performance Steel. Standard Steel ammunition can be used with any shotgun (other than Damascus/twist barrelled guns), in good order, bearing any of the above CIP, London or Birmingham symbols, provided the ammunition is of the correct length for the chamber and the barrel choking is less than half choke (some small cosmetic choke damage may still be incurred, even under these conditions). Ammunition packaging should denote that the ammunition is Standard Steel. However, if at all unsure whether your ammunition is Standard Steel, please consult the manufacturer. If you’re unsure whether your shotgun is suitable for use with Standard Steel ammunition please contact a competent gun dealer, gunsmith or the British Proof Authority for advice, this may involve the submission of your shotgun for inspection. High Performance Steel ammunition can only be used with shotguns bearing a CIP fleur de Lys mark, as represented in the above table. The ammunition should be of the correct length for the chamber. The CIP recommends less or equal to half choke in relation to a given shot diameter for the Bore, please see the table below for clarification. Bore Maximum Recommended Choke Restriction Shot Diameters 10 & 12 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 4mm (> 4mm) 16 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 3.5mm (> 3.5mm) 20 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 3.25mm (> 3.25mm) 28 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 3mm (> 3mm) .410 bore Half choke or less (≤ 0.5mm) For shot larger than 2.5mm (> 2.5mm) Ammunition packaging should denote that the ammunition is High Performance Steel. However, if unsure whether your ammunition is High Performance Steel, please consult the manufacturer. If unsure whether your shotgun is suitable for use with High Performance Steel ammunition please contact a competent gun dealer, gunsmith or the British Proof Authority for advice, this may involve the submission of your shotgun for inspection. https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1106151/Proofing.pdf Thanks, but I’ve been using HP steel shot through non steel shot proofed guns for years with no ill effects, but here’s the advice from BASC as pinned in the Wildfowling section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 1 Author Report Share Posted December 1 Thankyou all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, Could you not make your own fibre wad or maybe cork , I am sure i have seen someone using cork sheet for wads, you can get round cutters like a saddler uses Natural cork if not squeezed or compressed radially needs an obturator, be that card or plastic, as it isn't airtight. Good news for the wine industry for wines that need to age condition but not good news for the reloader as we cannot radially compress our cork wads. It is also, supposedly, for shotgun cartridges therefore not consistent in what pressure it allows to develop as the powder ignites. It used to be thought that cork wads are a thing associated with cheap cartridges or low quality. Edited December 1 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted December 1 Report Share Posted December 1 2 hours ago, BobbyH said: I have loads of .410 Fibre wads sat here, overshot cards too. .410 is cheap to reload, I load both lead and steel with huge savings! Im going to try fibre steel loads soon 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunny_blaster Posted December 3 Report Share Posted December 3 I’ve fired 1000’s of steel cartridges through my full choked mossberg .410 and never had any issues including using #6 shot. I now use an old Miroku trap gun choked full and full for my pigeon shooting using steel and again no issues at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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