Lead shot ingestion in birds

[Konor]

51 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The GWCT provided the scientific advice and review in support of a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. Lots of information here:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/

That included a non-exhaustive list of research papers as follows:

References

Pain, D.J., Cromie, R.L. & Green, R.E. (2015). Poisoning of UK birds and other wildlife from ammunition-derived lead. In: The Oxford Lead Symposium. Lead Ammunition: understanding and minimising the risks to human and environmental health.: 58–84. (eds. Delahay, R.J. & Spray, C.J.) Edward Grey Institute, University of Oxford. Oxford.

Ganz, K., Jenni, L., Madry, M.M., Kraemer, T., Jenny, H. & Jenny, D. (2018). Acute and Chronic Lead Exposure in Four Avian Scavenger Species in Switzerland. Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, 75:566–575.

Tavecchia, G., Pradel, R., Lebreton, J.-D., Johnson, A.R. & Mondain-Monval, J.-Y. (2001). The effect of lead exposure on survival of adult mallards in the Camargue, southern France. Journal of Applied Ecology, 38:1197–1207.

Burger, J. & Gochfeld, M. (2000). Effects of lead on birds (Laridae): a review of laboratory and field studies. Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, 3:59–78.

Burger, J. & Gochfeld, M. (2005). Effects of lead on learning in herring gulls: an avian wildlife model for neurobehavioral deficits. Neurotoxicology, 26:615–624.

Kelly, A. & Kelly, S. (2005). Are mute swans with elevated blood lead levels more likely to collide with overhead power lines? Waterbirds, 28:331–334.

Pain, D.J., Cromie, R.L., Newth, J.L., Brown, M.J., Crutcher, E., Hardman, P., Hurst, L., Mateo, R., Meharg, A.A., Oran, A.C., Raab, A., Taggart, M.A. & Green, R.E. (2010). Potential hazard to human health from exposure to fragments of lead bullets and shot in the tissues of game animals. PLoS ONE, 5:e10315.

Sainsbury, A., Bennett, P. & Kirkwood, J. (1995). The welfare of free-living wild animals in Europe: harm caused by human activities. Animal Welfare, 4:183–206.

Pain, D.J., Bavoux, C. & Burneleau, G. (1997). Seasonal blood lead concentrations in marsh harriers Circus aeruginosus from Charente-Maritime, France: Relationship with the hunting season. Biological Conservation, 81:1–7.

Beintema, N.H. (2001). Lead poisoning in waterbirds: International Update Report 2000. Wageningen.

Martinez-Haro, M., Taggart, M.A., Martín-Doimeadiós, R.R.C., Green, A.J. & Mateo, R. (2011). Identifying sources of Pb exposure in waterbirds and effects on porphyrin metabolism using noninvasive fecal sampling. Environmental Science and Technology, 45:6153–6159.

Newth, J.L., Cromie, R.L., Brown, M.J., Delahay, R.J., Meharg, A.A., Deacon, C., Norton, G.J., O’Brien, M.F. & Pain, D.J. (2012). Poisoning from lead gunshot: Still a threat to wild waterbirds in Britain. European Journal of Wildlife Research, 59:195–204.

Pain, D.J., Amiard-Triquet, C. & Sylvestre, C. (1992). Tissue lead concentrations and shot ingestion in nine species of waterbirds from the camargue (France). Ecotoxicology and Environmental Safety, 24:217–233.

AEWA. (2011). Literature review: effects of the use of lead fishing weights on waterbirds and wetlands. Doc StC Inf. 7.6, 1-20. Bergen.

Butler, D.A., Sage, R.B., Draycott, R.A.H., Carroll, J.P. & Potts, G.R. (2005). Lead exposure in ring-necked pheasants on shooting estates in Great Britain. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 33:583–589.

Potts, G.R. (2005). Incidence of ingested lead gunshot in wild grey partridges (Perdix perdix) from the UK. European Journal of Wildlife Research, 51:31–34.

Thomas, V.G., Scheuhammer, A.M. & Bond, D.E. (2009). Bone lead levels and lead isotope ratios in red grouse from Scottish and Yorkshire moors. Science of the Total Environment, 407:3494–3502.

Walker, L.A., Chaplow, J.S., Lawlor, A.J., Pereira, M.G., Potter, E.D., Sainsbury, A.W. & Shore, R.F. (2013). Lead (Pb) concentrations in predatory bird livers 2010 and 2011: a Predatory Bird Monitoring Scheme (PBMS) report. Lancaster, UK.

Vallverdú-Coll, N., López-Antia, A., Martinez-Haro, M., Ortiz-Santaliestra, M.E. & Mateo, R. (2015). Altered immune response in mallard ducklings exposed to lead through maternal transfer in the wild. Environmental Pollution, 205:350–356.

Newth, J.L., Rees, E.C., Cromie, R.L., McDonald, R.A., Bearhop, S., Pain, D.J., Norton, G.J., Deacon, C. & Hilton, G.M. (2016). Widespread exposure to lead affects the body condition of free-living whooper swans Cygnus cygnus wintering in Britain. Environmental Pollution, 209:60–67.

Ecke, F., Singh, N.J., Arnemo, J.M., Bignert, A., Helander, B., Berglund, Å.M.M., Borg, H., Bröjer, C., Holm, K., Lanzone, M., Miller, T., Nordström, Å., Räikkönen, J., Rodushkin, I., Ågren, E. & Hörnfeldt, B. (2017). Sublethal Lead Exposure Alters Movement Behavior in Free-Ranging Golden Eagles. Environmental Science and Technology, 51:5729–5736.

Lead Ammunition Group. (2015). Lead Ammunition, Wildlife and Human Health.

Harradine, J. & Leake, A. (2013). Lead Ammunition and Wildlife in England (UK). Lead Ammunition, Wildlife and Human Health: Appendix 3:

Butler, D. (2005). Incidence of lead shot ingestion in red-legged partridges (Alectoris rufa) in Great Britain. Veterinary Record, 157:661.

Scheuhammer, A.M., Bond, D.E., Burgess, N.M. & Rodrigue, J. (2003). Lead and stable lead isotope ratios in soil, earthworms, and bones of American woodcock (Scolopax minor) from eastern Canada. Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry, 22:2585–2591.

Russell, R.E. & Franson, J.C. (2014). Causes of mortality in eagles submitted to the National Wildlife Health Center 1975-2013. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 38:697–704.

Hunt, W.G., Burnham, W., Parish, C.N., Burnham, K.K., Mutch, B. & Oaks, J.L. (2006). Bullet Fragments in Deer Remains: Implications for Lead Exposure in Avian Scavengers. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 34:167–170.

Mateo, R. (2008). Lead poisoning in wild birds in Europe and the regulations adopted by different countries. In: Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans: 71–98. (eds. Watson, R.T., Fuller, M., Pokras, M. & Hunt, G.) The Peregrine Fund, Boise, USA.

Kurosawa, N. (2000). Lead poisoning in Steller’s Sea Eagles and White-tailed Sea Eagles. In: First Symposium on Steller’s and White-tailed Sea Eagles in East Asia: 107–109. (eds. Ueta, M. & McGrady, M.J.) Wild Bird Society of Japan, Tokyo. 

Finkelstein, M.E., Doak, D.F., George, D., Burnett, J., Brandt, J., Church, M., Grantham, J. & Smith, D.R. (2012). Lead poisoning and the deceptive recovery of the critically endangered California condor. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 109:11449–11454.

Meyer, C.B., Meyer, J.S., Francisco, A.B., Holder, J. & Verdonck, F. (2016). Can ingestion of lead shot and poisons change population trends of three European birds: Grey partridge, common buzzard, and red kite? PLoS ONE, 11:e0147189.

Green, R.E. & Pain, D.J. (2016). Possible effects of ingested lead gunshot on populations of ducks wintering in the UK. Ibis, 158:699–710.

Pain, D.J. & Green, R.E. (2014). An evaluation of the risks to wildlife in the UK from lead derived from ammunition. Lead Ammunition, Wildlife and Human Health: Appendix 4: UK.

Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust. Tackling lead ammunition poisoning | WWT. Available at: https://www.wwt.org.uk/our-work/projects/tackling-lead-ammunition-poisoning/#. (Accessed: 7 July 2021)

Kanstrup, N. (2019). Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark. Ambio, 48:999–1008.

Envirochem Analytical Laboratories. Where is Lead Found? Available at: https://envirochem.co.uk/news/where-is-lead-found.html. (Accessed: 25 August 2021)

Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs. (2009). Code of Good Agricultural Practice for farmers, growers and land managers.

Tukker, A., Buist, H., van Oers, L. & van der Voet, E. (2006). Risks to health and environment of the use of lead in products in the EU. Resources, Conservation and Recycling, 49:89–109.

Mateo, R. (2009). Lead Poisoning in Wild Birds in Europe and the Regulations Adopted by Different Countries. In: Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans: 71–98. (eds. Watson, R.T., Fuller, M., Pokras, M. & Hunt, G.) The Peregrine Fund. Boise. doi:10.4080/ilsa.2009.0107

Mudge, G.P. (1983). The Incidence and Significance of Ingested Lead Pellet Poisoning in British Wildfowl. Biological Conservation, 27:333–372.

Edwards, J.R., Fossum, T.W., Nichols, K.J., Noah, D.L., Tarpley, R.J. & Prozialeck, W.C. (2017). One health: Children, waterfowl, and lead exposure in Northwestern Nigeria. Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, 117:370–376.

Friend, M. (1999). Lead. In: Field Manual of Wildlife Diseases: General Field Procedures and Diseases of Birds: 317–334. (eds. Friend, M., Franson, J.C. & Ciganovich, E.A.) U.S. Geological Survey. Washington, D.C.

Green, R.E. & Pain, D.J. (2016). Possible effects of ingested lead gunshot on populations of ducks wintering in the UK. International Journal of Avian Science, 158:699–710.

Franson, J.C. & Pain, D.J. (2011). Lead in Birds. In: Environmental Contaminants in Biota: Interpreting Tissue Concentrations: 563–593. (eds. Beyer, W.N. & Meador, J.P.) Taylor and Francis. Boca Raton.

Finley, M.T. & Dieter, M.P. (1978). Influence of laying on lead accumulation in bone of mallard ducks. Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, 4:123–129.

Pain, D.J., Dickie, I., Green, R.E., Kanstrup, N. & Cromie, R.L. (2019). Wildlife, human and environmental costs of using lead ammunition: An economic review and analysis. Ambio, 48:969–988.

Quy, R. (2010). Review of evidence concerning the contamination of wildlife and the environment arising from the use of lead ammunition: A report to DEFRA. York, UK.

Pecsics, T., Laczi, M., Nagy, G. & Csörgő, T. (2017). The cranial morphometrics of the wildfowl (Anatidae). Ornis Hungarica, 25:44–57.

Pain, D.J. (1990). Lead shot ingestion by waterbirds in the Camargue, France: An investigation of levels and interspecific differences. Environmental Pollution, 66:273–285.

Aebischer, N.J. (2019). Fifty-year trends in UK hunting bags of birds and mammals, and calibrated estimation of national bag size, using GWCT’s National Gamebag Census. European Journal of Wildlife Research, 65:

Cromie, R.L., Loram, A., Hurst, L., O’Brien, M.F., Newth, J.L., Brown, M.J. & Harradine, J. (2010). Compliance With the Environmental Protection (Restriction on Use of Lead Shot)(England) Regulations 1999. Bristol.

Pain, D.J. (1991). Why are lead-poisoned waterfowl rarely seen?: the disappearance of waterfowl carcasses in the Camargue, France. Wildfowl, 42:118–122.

European Chemicals Agency. Lead in shot, bullets and fishing weights. Available at: https://echa.europa.eu/hot-topics/lead-in-shot-bullets-and-fishing-weights. (Accessed: 24 August 2021)

European Federation for Hunting and Conservation. (2020). What does the new regulation on banning lead shot over wetlands mean for Europe’s hunters? Available at: https://www.face.eu/2020/12/what-does-the-new-regulation-on-banning-lead-shot-over-wetlands-mean-for-europes-hunters/. (Accessed: 24 August 2021)

 

Plenty of information to wade through Conor but on the specific subject of the effects of lead shot deposited inland on game birds no actual figures to quantify any impact

[eightlittlebits]

30 minutes ago, Konor said:

I certainly have neither the time or inclination to trawl through all your posts regarding the minefields of lead

Here you go, 

Quote

Thanks for having a look and getting back to me. The GWCT references are but the tip of the iceberg on impacts of various bird species eating lead shot as grit (the evidence goes back 100 years), but for wild greys it does concentrate the mind as regards the cost-benefits of let's say shooting a carrion crow or magpie using a lead shot cartridge over an area of brood rearing cover to reduce the risk of the partridge chicks from predation - when that shot may have eliminated the predator but has just produced a fresh minefield of lead shot on the ground for those wee partridge chicks to eat as grit and then die from.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

56 minutes ago, eightlittlebits said:

Here you go, 

 

Thanks, and not a mention of lead shot bans there. What sparked it all off was this BASC update:

https://basc.org.uk/moving-forward-for-the-future-of-shooting/

And the thread ended with @welsh1wheeling out the 'dogs barking at each other' video 🤣

[Konor]

54 minutes ago, eightlittlebits said:

Here you go, 

 

Thanks eightlittlebits for going to the trouble of sourcing that quote.
I think Conor thinks I am claiming that at some point he stated “I am in favour of a legislated total lead shot ban”when what I am saying is that the nature of his posts where he has included studies that record the percentage of lead shot ingestion creates the impression that that data is sufficient reason to merit a lead shot ban and I am saying that I accept that data on face value but what impact does it have if any on the game bird populations studied and he is unable to provide that information. The lack of context to the figures provided therefore fails to make a case for further lead shot restrictions. Should anyone read over Conor posts he will undoubtedly be left with the impression that the available science makes an overwhelming case for the abolition of the use of lead shot inland. 
 The data being provided was available to DEFRA prior to their decision not to increase further restrictions in 2016 so why can it be thought relevant to promote further restrictions on the use of lead shot now.

[Konor]

13 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks, and not a mention of lead shot bans there. What sparked it all off was this BASC update:

https://basc.org.uk/moving-forward-for-the-future-of-shooting/

And the thread ended with @welsh1wheeling out the 'dogs barking at each other' video 🤣

I think you’ll find my last post covers my views on your stance on lead shot. Reading through both our posts regarding lead shot and it’s proposed restrictions, voluntary and legislative I can’t help but notice that it would make for a more peaceful forum experience if you simply responded to points and questions raised rather than frustrate fellow posters by cherry picking what you want to respond to and ignoring any uncomfortable questions.

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 minutes ago, Konor said:

I think you’ll find my last post covers my views on your stance on lead shot. Reading through both our posts regarding lead shot and it’s proposed restrictions, voluntary and legislative I can’t help but notice that it would make for a more peaceful forum experience if you simply responded to points and questions raised rather than frustrate fellow posters by cherry picking what you want to respond to and ignoring any uncomfortable questions.

Your first comment in that thread was "The latest claim that the voluntary transition away from lead shot use over 5 years was not in itself part of a move towards a legislative ban is laughable". Straight into the pub swinging punches and you were more or less last man standing, winner of the most comments in a thread, as usual. If you were genuinely interested in a 'peaceful forum experience' you would pick up the phone to me or Terry Behan, you have had countless offers that you have turned down. What have you got to lose or hide?

[Gordon R]

Konor - nothing changes. 🙂

[Konor]

32 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Your first comment in that thread was "The latest claim that the voluntary transition away from lead shot use over 5 years was not in itself part of a move towards a legislative ban is laughable". Straight into the pub swinging punches and you were more or less last man standing, winner of the most comments in a thread, as usual. If you were genuinely interested in a 'peaceful forum experience' you would pick up the phone to me or Terry Behan, you have had countless offers that you have turned down. What have you got to lose or hide?

😂 I wouldn’t disagree with that quote Conor and I think time is proving me correct. The voluntary transition achieved nothingand now we are facing a legislative ban. Perhaps a concerted effort to provide studies to show the minimal impact of lead shot use inland might have been a more productive way forward. Has BASC initiated any such studies ? Has BASC sought to show the impact of lead shot compared to other detrimental effects on game bird survival to put such impact in a context ?

I find your “straight into the pub swinging punches and you were more or less last man standing winner of the most comments es usual” both amusing and bizarre at the same time. It’s almost as if you are bemoaning the fact that you weren’t the “winner of the most comments” and deprived of some prize. The boring reality which is far from the drama of your pub fight scenario that you have created is that I am merely questioning information that you choose to post as have many others both here and on other forums.

 I repeat yet again anything I have to say I will do so on an open forum where there is transparency and accountability and it is also open to comment from other forum users. What have I got to lose or hide well ? I wouldn’t want your vivid imagination conjuring up a straight into the meeting swinging punches scenario with no witnesses to say otherwise. No I’ll stick to the safety of the forum thanks 😂

9 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Konor - nothing changes. 🙂

Ground hog day to a certain extent 🙂

Edited Thursday at 18:52 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 minutes ago, Konor said:

😂 I wouldn’t disagree with that quote Conor and I think time is proving me correct. The voluntary transition achieved nothing and now we are facing a legislative ban. Perhaps a concerted effort to provide studies to show the minimal impact of lead shot use inland might have been a more productive way forward. Has BASC initiated any such studies ? Has BASC sought to show the impact of lead shot compared to other detrimental effects on game bird survival to put such impact in a context ?

I find your “straight into the pub swinging punches and you were more or less last man standing winner of the most comments es usual” both amusing and bizarre at the same time. It’s almost as if you are bemoaning the fact that you weren’t the “winner of the most comments” and deprived of some prize. The boring reality which is far from the drama of your pub fight scenario that you have created is that I am merely questioning information that you choose to post as have many others both here and on other forums.

 I repeat yet again anything I have to say I will do so on an open forum where there is transparency and accountability and it is also open to comment from other forum users. What have I got to lose or hide well ? I wouldn’t want your vivid imagination conjuring up a straight into the meeting swinging punches scenario with no witnesses to say otherwise. No I’ll stick to the safety of the forum thanks 😂

You are an anonymous person on the internet pontificating about transparency and accountability as an argument against the offer to speak to BASC staff on matters of concern to you about BASC.  That's on you.

You don't support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and that is absolutely your decision and choice. However, many many others think differently, understanding is growing on the evidenced impacts of lead shot on birds, shoots are moving away from lead shot, people are trying alternatives like steel shot with great success. 

As regards potential restrictions ahead, the HSE review of lead in ammunition was initiated because of Brexit not because of the voluntary transition. Did you vote 'Yes'? I did, so maybe that is something we have in common.

[Konor]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

You are an anonymous person on the internet pontificating about transparency and accountability as an argument against the offer to speak to BASC staff on matters of concern to you about BASC.  That's on you.

You don't support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and that is absolutely your decision and choice. However, many many others think differently, understanding is growing on the evidenced impacts of lead shot on birds, shoots are moving away from lead shot, people are trying alternatives like steel shot with great success. 

As regards potential restrictions ahead, the HSE review of lead in ammunition was initiated because of Brexit not because of the voluntary transition. Did you vote 'Yes'? I did, so maybe that is something we have in common.

I’m failing to see the point of this post Conor , along with the majority of Scots I voted to remain but I don’t think that choice could be said to define me. I’m not a great believer in politicians I’m a bit too straightforward for that and I find the manipulation that goes along with politics tiring it seems to centre around avoiding answering uncomfortable questions and I prefer to be trusted with uncomfortable facts rather than have them hidden from me. Do you play darts ? If so we have that in common.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 minute ago, Konor said:

I’m failing to see the point of this post Conor , along with the majority of Scots I voted to remain but I don’t think that choice could be said to define me. I’m not a great believer in politicians I’m a bit too straightforward for that and I find the manipulation that goes along with politics tiring it seems to centre around avoiding answering uncomfortable questions and I prefer to be trusted with uncomfortable facts rather than have them hidden from me. Do you play darts ? If so we have that in common.

I do like a game of darts. Maybe one day in a happy utopia we will throw a few in a proper pub in Scotland whilst putting the world of shooting and politics to rights, without a pub brawl.

[Konor]

16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I do like a game of darts. Maybe one day in a happy utopia we will throw a few in a proper pub in Scotland whilst putting the world of shooting and politics to rights, without a pub brawl.

Perhaps magnetic darts ,it’s sad when personal emotions surrounding opinions result in ill feeling and that’s not my aim when constantly questioning. I hope you understand that there is no personal element to our disagreements and yes I realise that the written word can appear more abrupt and abrasive and may create the impression that these disagreements are more personal than they actually are. 👍

Edited Thursday at 19:38 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

13 minutes ago, Konor said:

Perhaps magnetic darts ,it’s sad when personal emotions surrounding opinions result in ill feeling and that’s not my aim when constantly questioning. I hope you understand that there is no personal element to our disagreements and yes I realise that the written word can appear more abrupt and abrasive and may create the impression that these disagreements are more personal than they actually are. 👍

Well on that note, let's crack on with reviewing the various studies on lead shot ingestion in birds without the need for ad hominem arguments. Woodcock will be next.

[Konor]

12 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Well on that note, let's crack on with reviewing the various studies on lead shot ingestion in birds without the need for ad hominem arguments. Woodcock will be next.

Do you have any figures that put the scientific data you intend posting into a context that reflects the comparative impact of lead shot deposition on the woodcock population compared to other factors influencing woodcock numbers.

Questioning hasn’t disappeared Conor 👍

Edited Thursday at 20:07 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

Woodcock

Lead shot ingestion by woodcock in the UK has not been studied as far as I know, but there could be a primary or secondary exposure risk (as per HSE report to government), as per evidence found in other members of the Scolopax genus.

The following article on research for American woodcock (Scolopax minor) in Wisconsin is an interesting read weighing up the various aspects to this.

American Woodcock Accumulate Lead According to Study

https://projectupland.com/hunting-conservation/american-woodcock-accumulate-lead-according-to-study/

The research itself is here:

Lead contamination in American woodcock (Scolopax minor) from Wisconsin

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16132412/

See also some research from Canada

Elevated lead exposure in American woodcock (Scolopax minor) in Eastern Canada

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10047602/ 

Lead and stable lead isotope ratios in soil, earthworms, and bones of American woodcock (Scolopax minor) from eastern Canada

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14587896/ 

Effects of Nontoxic Shot Regulations on Lead Accumulation in Ducks and American Woodcock in Canada

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00244-004-0044-x 

Exposure, Effects and Absorption of Lead in American Woodcock (Scolopax minor): A Review

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28710526/

 

Edited Thursday at 20:19 by Conor O'Gorman

[Gas seal]

Hi Conor , you ask members for evidence regarding lead shot ingestion by birds, starting with English partridge. The evidence so far seems to be around the  many (outdated) reports on lead shot over the years.

  Have any small game  shoots thought about , or concerned about, lead shot falling in or around breeding or releasing areas before this article was started.

 My view on birds ingesting lead pellets is it will be fatal. How many could be killed l don’t know. As a life long shooter one is to many.

  When I was at school one of my tasks was working the ferrets, and sent to borrow ferrets. One of dad’s friends fed them with any, Peppered , rabbits. One day l found them lay down and could hardly move their head, he was told of telling him that they had lead poisoning and to put them down right away. I have no doubt that the lead killed them. He was told that he could have weighed them in. 
  Regarding the numbers of cartridges fired on the smaller shoots , I wonder how it compares with the numbers a wildfowling club fires in a (six month) season .

[Conor O'Gorman]

35 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Conor , you ask members for evidence regarding lead shot ingestion by birds, starting with English partridge. The evidence so far seems to be around the  many (outdated) reports on lead shot over the years.

  Have any small game  shoots thought about , or concerned about, lead shot falling in or around breeding or releasing areas before this article was started.

 My view on birds ingesting lead pellets is it will be fatal. How many could be killed l don’t know. As a life long shooter one is to many.

  When I was at school one of my tasks was working the ferrets, and sent to borrow ferrets. One of dad’s friends fed them with any, Peppered , rabbits. One day l found them lay down and could hardly move their head, he was told of telling him that they had lead poisoning and to put them down right away. I have no doubt that the lead killed them. He was told that he could have weighed them in. 
  Regarding the numbers of cartridges fired on the smaller shoots , I wonder how it compares with the numbers a wildfowling club fires in a (six month) season .

Thanks. Your evidence may well give some food for thought, albeit I don't think I have actually asked members for evidence (an oversight on my part), rather that I was asking for feedback on the evidence that I am posting on various species.

The thread has not resulted in much feedback on the evidence itself but there are plenty more species to come!

As regards timescales I think it matters not when the research was done - if certain bird species were found to be dying of lead shot poisoning 100 years ago, they will likely still be doing so today.

To answer your question on game shoots, many small and large have been moving away from the use of lead shot. 

Edited Thursday at 21:03 by Conor O'Gorman

[Konor]

33 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

It matters not when the research was done - if birds were found to be dying of lead shot poisoning 100 years ago, they will still be doing so today.

It would matter in that the UK based evidence available pre 2016 would have been taken into consideration when DEFRA announced its decision that there was no justification for any further restrictions on the use of lead shot, let’s not lose sight of that while wading through the copious amounts of studies listed.

35 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

To answer your question on game shoots, many small and large have been moving away from the use of lead shot. 

And far more have opted not to , I think that’s fair comment

Edited Thursday at 21:13 by Konor
Addition for clarification

[Conor O'Gorman]

16 hours ago, Konor said:

It would matter in that the UK based evidence available pre 2016 would have been taken into consideration when DEFRA announced its decision that there was no justification for any further restrictions on the use of lead shot, let’s not lose sight of that while wading through the copious amounts of studies listed.

Yes, and the ministerial response stated "As you know the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) has been asked by the European Commission to gather information on the potential risks presented by metallic lead, to establish if there is a case for regulating its use within the European Union; we will keep the evidence presented by the ECHA under review".

Remember that this response on 12 July 2016 was a few weeks after the Brexit referendum and a day after the Conservative leadership campaign - and a day after Lis Truss's letter, her role in government changed under Teresa May's new cabinet.

Since then we have now had a 3-year HSE review under post-Brexit regulations UK REACH, mirroring the ECHA review in the EU, and we await a ministerial response from Defra for England, and there may be responses from Scotland and Wales govts. Powers to regulate lead ammunition are devolved so we may see different approaches in England, Scotland and Wales - we may see no action at all - or we may see some going beyond the HSE recommendations. 

Meanwhile the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry continues and the following reasoning for that was is outlined here: https://basc.org.uk/ammunition/moving-away-from-lead/ and specifically:

"Recent technological developments have made non-lead shot more effective, more widely available and more affordable. Equally, biodegradable wads are now a possibility. These advances are continuing apace and it is now time for the wider live quarry shooting community to join the wildfowlers, who have used non-lead alternatives successfully for the last 20 years.

In addition, there are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA). Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead-free game into Europe, or by UK legislation."

As for the evidence it is explained that "There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them".

 

[Scully]

If we’re basing legislation on ‘potentials’ then we’re scuppered. 

[Konor]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes, and the ministerial response stated "As you know the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) has been asked by the European Commission to gather information on the potential risks presented by metallic lead, to establish if there is a case for regulating its use within the European Union; we will keep the evidence presented by the ECHA under review".

Remember that this response on 12 July 2016 was a few weeks after the Brexit referendum and a day after the Conservative leadership campaign - and a day after Lis Truss's letter, her role in government changed under Teresa May's new cabinet.

Since then we have now had a 3-year HSE review under post-Brexit regulations UK REACH, mirroring the ECHA review in the EU, and we await a ministerial response from Defra for England, and there may be responses from Scotland and Wales govts. Powers to regulate lead ammunition are devolved so we may see different approaches in England, Scotland and Wales - we may see no action at all - or we may see some going beyond the HSE recommendations. 

Meanwhile the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry continues and the following reasoning for that was is outlined here: https://basc.org.uk/ammunition/moving-away-from-lead/ and specifically:

"Recent technological developments have made non-lead shot more effective, more widely available and more affordable. Equally, biodegradable wads are now a possibility. These advances are continuing apace and it is now time for the wider live quarry shooting community to join the wildfowlers, who have used non-lead alternatives successfully for the last 20 years.

In addition, there are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA). Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead-free game into Europe, or by UK legislation."

As for the evidence it is explained that "There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them".

 

All well and good Conor but you are flogging a dead horse here. Potential is hardly a scientific basis for change and you can’t alter the fact that none of the information you have shared measures the impact of lead ingestion.  
The politics surrounding the matter has no influence on the scientific data that should be used as evidence to establish a reason for introducing further legislation and that scientific evidence hasn’t been produced.Remember No Science No Change ,it’s not that long ago.

You seem to be falling over yourself to show good cause for eliminating the use of lead shot , do you think that is appropriate representation that is in the best interests of BASC members given the lack of supporting evidence to justify any further lead shot restrictions 
I don’t know how familiar you are with a shotgun , I’ve done a fair bit of wildfowling in my time and my 3 1/2 inch magnum that I use with steel shot may be adequate on the foreshore but you can’t compare the gun or the load to the side by side and steel 2 1/2 inch loads commonly used inland.
So on the basis of single percentage ingestion of lead shot figures for which you fail to provide any scientific assessment of impact on game bird populations you expect shooters to go to the expense of having their guns bored out to accept an inferior projectile commonly blamed for increased wounding or opt to use bismuth at £1.50 per cartridge. At the same time ignoring the environmental impact of producing the steel shot and having it shipped to this country. All on the flimsy excuse that there could be an as yet undefined  potential risk of harm. 
 When looking at the evidence you have submitted to the forum it’s hardly grounds for the changes proposed. The solution you are so much in favour of is simply not proportionate to the degree of harm you are able to prove in fact as stated earlier you are unable to quantify any degree of harm. 
As an example “ There is a growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands? 
A growing concern by whom and what scientific data are they privy to that substantiates such concern ,could you provide it ?

Bureaucracy is a great provider for those that would spend their lives producing data for assessments that contribute little if any improvement to the general population. It would not surprise me if large salaries and expense accounts are justified by those tasked with making decisions based on evidence as flimsy as you are using to support your views.

 Now I think I’ve addressed all your points as is the norm perhaps you will do me the courtesy of going back through my posts in this thread and doing likewise.

[Old farrier]

On 20/02/2025 at 19:54, Conor O'Gorman said:

Well on that note, let's crack on with reviewing the various studies on lead shot ingestion in birds without the need for ad hominem arguments. Woodcock will be next.

Looking at the various outdated historical studies I feel that there would be a far greater impact on increasing the number of partridge by tackling the biggest killer of them not the smallest if you halved predation that would give you a 20% increase instead of a possible 4%  by banning lead  edit as possibley proposed by HSE and voluntary transition from it by basc

Edited 20 hours ago by Old farrier

[Konor]

58 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Looking at the various outdated historical studies I feel that there would be a far greater impact on increasing the number of partridge by tackling the biggest killer of them not the smallest if you halved predation that would give you a 20% increase instead of a possible 4%  by banning lead  

It’s that kind of common sense that’s apparently not so common nowadays OF. 

[Vince Green]

On 19/02/2025 at 16:51, Old farrier said:

I think there’s a fair bit of tunnel vision in the research/science they don’t seem to want to see the whole picture it’s geared towards the results that they want to achieve 

most problems are caused by academics and scientists

very few by country bumpkins 

Exactly right, academics have to produce research papers to progress their careers. Nobody is ever going to publish a research paper that find there is no problem, nothing to worry about here. 

Besides, the person doing the research is not likely to be impartial to start with

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Konor said:

All well and good Conor but you are flogging a dead horse here. Potential is hardly a scientific basis for change and you can’t alter the fact that none of the information you have shared measures the impact of lead ingestion.  
The politics surrounding the matter has no influence on the scientific data that should be used as evidence to establish a reason for introducing further legislation and that scientific evidence hasn’t been produced.Remember No Science No Change ,it’s not that long ago.

You seem to be falling over yourself to show good cause for eliminating the use of lead shot , do you think that is appropriate representation that is in the best interests of BASC members given the lack of supporting evidence to justify any further lead shot restrictions 
I don’t know how familiar you are with a shotgun , I’ve done a fair bit of wildfowling in my time and my 3 1/2 inch magnum that I use with steel shot may be adequate on the foreshore but you can’t compare the gun or the load to the side by side and steel 2 1/2 inch loads commonly used inland.
So on the basis of single percentage ingestion of lead shot figures for which you fail to provide any scientific assessment of impact on game bird populations you expect shooters to go to the expense of having their guns bored out to accept an inferior projectile commonly blamed for increased wounding or opt to use bismuth at £1.50 per cartridge. At the same time ignoring the environmental impact of producing the steel shot and having it shipped to this country. All on the flimsy excuse that there could be an as yet undefined  potential risk of harm. 
 When looking at the evidence you have submitted to the forum it’s hardly grounds for the changes proposed. The solution you are so much in favour of is simply not proportionate to the degree of harm you are able to prove in fact as stated earlier you are unable to quantify any degree of harm. 
As an example “ There is a growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands? 
A growing concern by whom and what scientific data are they privy to that substantiates such concern ,could you provide it ?

Bureaucracy is a great provider for those that would spend their lives producing data for assessments that contribute little if any improvement to the general population. It would not surprise me if large salaries and expense accounts are justified by those tasked with making decisions based on evidence as flimsy as you are using to support your views.

 Now I think I’ve addressed all your points as is the norm perhaps you will do me the courtesy of going back through my posts in this thread and doing likewise.

Nobody is forcing you to change your ways or beliefs. There is an ongoing voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting based on the evidence. It is your choice if you wish to continue shooting with shotgun cartridges containing lead shot for your live quarry shooting. I think we all get it on the forum that you disagree with the voluntary transition and that is fine, and I will continue to share updates on the evidence of lead shot ingestion in various species on this thread.