Gordon R Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 Joking aside, I honestly wonder just how they came to allow themselves to support the phasing out of lead, without any conclusive evidence to support it. Ed Milliband peddles the same "the move to net zero is unstoppable" nonsense. They just keep spouting nonsense and can't comprehend why people aren't convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 24 Author Report Share Posted February 24 (edited) So far we have covered evidence of lead shot ingestion in the UK in grey partridge, red grouse, pheasant and red-legged partridge. In Spain for woodpigeon, rock dove, stock dove, turtle-dove, Barbary partridge and common quail In Bulgaria for pheasant, partridge, quail and turtle dove. In USA for American woodcock and bobwhite quail. Still on the theme of gamebirds, here is some evidence of lead shot ingestion for chukar partridge from USA: Chukar partridge Widespread ingestion of lead pellets by wild chukars in Northwestern Utah (2015) https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/wsb.527 For wild chukars, we documented elevated lead exposure (ingested gizzard lead or elevated liver lead) in 5 counties and 8 mountain ranges in years 2003–2007. We estimated lead ingestion rates of 9.3% (43 of 461) using ingested gizzard lead and 8.3% (10 of 121) employing elevated liver lead (≥1 μg/g wet weight), respectively. Fall diet of chukars in eastern Oregon and discovery of ingested lead pellets (2003) https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1791&context=wnan Our most startling discovery was ingested shot pellets in 7.1% of 140 non-empty crops. The mean number of ingested lead pellets was 1.7 (s = 0.5, range = 1-2 pellets, n = 8 and 2 crops had 1 and 3 steel pellets, respectively. Investigation of 123 gizzards also revealed ingested lead pellets in 7 (5.7%). While the hazards of lead shot are well documented for waterfowl and birds of prey, they are less known in other species; however, risk of lead shot to upland birds is becoming increasingly apparent and acknowledged as a potential management concern Our findings are site specific, but the possibility that lead ingestion may be occurring in other populations of Chukars or in other bird species in arid environments should be investigated. Continued documentation of this situation is necessary to evaluate the overall impact of lead shot on ground-foraging birds, especially in light of improved alternatives to lead shot. Edited February 24 by Conor O'Gorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 My concern about birds ingesting lead pellets left by shooters is 100% .l justify my culling of woodpigeon under the relevant wildlife management license. Regarding my sportsmanship l have been told many times by other shooters, not by non shooters, l am unsportsmanlike the way l shoot woodpigeon, and shoot them in the breeding season. I will set up shooting in tramlines of growing crops and shoot pigeons on the ground, on average three to six with one shot, using steel pellets. I also shoot woodpigeon the conventional way . For my wildfowling and other shooting lm a typical sportsman. People who oppose my shooting have a write to their opinions. And I get along with them. I get along with local bird watchers and local ringer’s are grateful for returning ringed birds. I hope this cleared up my interest in the subject of ingested lead pellets in birds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Continued documentation of this situation is necessary to evaluate the overall impact of lead shot on ground-foraging birds, especially in light of improved alternatives to lead shot. What gobbledygook nonsense Conor . The production of data so far has failed to show any impact on game bird numbers why would the production of yet more data be any more successful and what exactly is the link to “improved alternatives to lead shot “other than an opportunity to make yet more generalisations. It would appear that the continuing studying to death of the issue is absolutely pointless. Should BASC not be occupied in scrutinising all the figures so far rolled out and questioning why none of the data is able to show any measurable impact. IE instead of being paid to immerse yourself in ,so far, pointless data why is your first concern not the critical evaluation of it in the defence of shooting sports . In assessing the information provided through this thread I cannot help but conclude that the efforts you are making on behalf of the shooting community is woefully inadequate. Furthermore your behaviour on the forum ,both your posts and attitude , leads me to believe that your investment in the sport ,emotionally and financially,is minimal hence your indifference to what will be far reaching consequences to followers of the sport should further unnecessary restrictions be imposed. Does it not appear bizarre that here we are arguing over restrictions with someone who supports them who is actually a representative of a shooting organisation. We deserve better and if BASC fails to see that then it has lost the right to call itself the voice of shooting. Conor your failure to engage in addressing the concerns expressed here on the forum reflects poorly on you. The fact that BASC appears to condone such behaviour is more worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 In the absence of any critical interpretation of the data so far listed here and the apparent lack of resistance to further restrictions on lead shot use shown throughout this thread (despite the lack of evidence of quantifiable impact )perhaps it would seem appropriate for forum members to question the reasons behind this. Unfortunately as the BASC representative refuses to engage in any meaningful debate surrounding the information supplied it would appear that we are left to accept the sad fact that BASC or at least BASC’s representative , on the basis of his posts on this forum so far , has little intention of representing the views of those shooters who would prefer to see a more proportionate response to the issue of lead shot use inland that is in keeping with the strength of evidence currently being presented in support of further restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 7 hours ago, Gordon R said: Joking aside, I honestly wonder just how they came to allow themselves to support the phasing out of lead, without any conclusive evidence to support it. Ed Milliband peddles the same "the move to net zero is unstoppable" nonsense. They just keep spouting nonsense and can't comprehend why people aren't convinced. It’s a mystery Gordon ,it’s almost like our representatives have invested a ball of string and a ferret in exchange for their shotgun and shoot only on the tide of a blue moon. Perhaps what is needed is field sports enthusiasts rather than armchair academics up to their ears in the latest or rather oldest irrelevant “research data”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pukka Bundook Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 Very Well put, Konor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 7 hours ago, Pukka Bundook said: Very Well put, Konor. Welcome to the forum and thread. I will have a look at evidence of lead shot ingestion in birds in Canada. I note that Canada has required that non-lead shot be used in national wildlife areas since 1995, in wetlands since 1997, for hunting most migratory game birds across the country since 1999, and for upland game birds since 2012. Do you know if the National Fishing and Hunting Collaborative, or any individual hunting organisations in Canada have a position on moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 13 hours ago, Gas seal said: My concern about birds ingesting lead pellets left by shooters is 100% .l justify my culling of woodpigeon under the relevant wildlife management license. Regarding my sportsmanship l have been told many times by other shooters, not by non shooters, l am unsportsmanlike the way l shoot woodpigeon, and shoot them in the breeding season. I will set up shooting in tramlines of growing crops and shoot pigeons on the ground, on average three to six with one shot, using steel pellets. I also shoot woodpigeon the conventional way . For my wildfowling and other shooting lm a typical sportsman. People who oppose my shooting have a write to their opinions. And I get along with them. I get along with local bird watchers and local ringer’s are grateful for returning ringed birds. I hope this cleared up my interest in the subject of ingested lead pellets in birds. You are certainly not alone in your concerns. Many shoots have embraced lead-free ammunition, game dealers are increasingly sourcing lead-free game, and retailers are responding to consumer demand for more sustainable products. Through a combination of industry innovation and engagement with the shooting community, BASC and its members have demonstrated that sustainability and shooting can go hand in hand. https://basc.org.uk/five-years-on-sustaining-the-transition-away-from-lead/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: You are certainly not alone in your concerns. Many shoots have embraced lead-free ammunition, game dealers are increasingly sourcing lead-free game, and retailers are responding to consumer demand for more sustainable products. Through a combination of industry innovation and engagement with the shooting community, BASC and its members have demonstrated that sustainability and shooting can go hand in hand. https://basc.org.uk/five-years-on-sustaining-the-transition-away-from-lead/ Do you have any figures that would illustrate the extent that shoots are embracing lead free ammunition ? Figures for the extent lead free game is now available as a result of the voluntary transition ? Perhaps figures for the percentage of lead shot offered compared to non lead shot game offered for sale? Figures to show the decline in demand for lead and resulting upturn in non lead shot sales to quantify the extent of any movement away from lead shot ? Failure to provide such figures obviously leaves you open to accusations of generalisation and that inability to quantify such claims leaves you open to accusations of manipulation. Of course production of all such figures would substantiate your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: You are certainly not alone in your concerns. Many shoots have embraced lead-free ammunition, game dealers are increasingly sourcing lead-free game, and retailers are responding to consumer demand for more sustainable products. Through a combination of industry innovation and engagement with the shooting community, BASC and its members have demonstrated that sustainability and shooting can go hand in hand. https://basc.org.uk/five-years-on-sustaining-the-transition-away-from-lead/ Can I suggest that if you and @Gas seal are so concerned about the ingestion of spent shot you both stop shooting? I’m assuming either of you isn’t concerned about killing them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: You are certainly not alone in your concerns. Many shoots have embraced lead-free ammunition, game dealers are increasingly sourcing lead-free game, and retailers are responding to consumer demand for more sustainable products. Through a combination of industry innovation and engagement with the shooting community, BASC and its members have demonstrated that sustainability and shooting can go hand in hand. https://basc.org.uk/five-years-on-sustaining-the-transition-away-from-lead/ A quick Google brings up recent relevant information posted 2 days ago concerning grouse shot during the 2024 season. Analysis of Red Grouse shot showed that all of the 78 carcasses contained lead shot. 1 carcasse had both lead and bismuth. Hardly a good sign and doesn’t reflect your stated opinion. Perhaps the lack of impact figures from lead shot ingestion is prompting people to question the validity of any claims of detriment arising from lead shot use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Konor said: A quick Google brings up recent relevant information posted 2 days ago concerning grouse shot during the 2024 season. Analysis of Red Grouse shot showed that all of the 78 carcasses contained lead shot. 1 carcasse had both lead and bismuth. Hardly a good sign and doesn’t reflect your stated opinion. Perhaps the lack of impact figures from lead shot ingestion is prompting people to question the validity of any claims of detriment arising from lead shot use. These claims lack firm evidence and the testing that has been done has drawn samples from some shoots that haven’t moved away from lead. No testing has been done which focuses on shoots that are lead-free, so the figures are skewed. See a challenge on methodolgy here:https://basc.org.uk/poor-methodology-undermines-validity-of-game-meat-research/ And see some criticism about that in link below. https://raptorpersecutionuk.org/2023/04/24/basc-slurs-expert-study-on-amount-of-toxic-lead-ammunition-in-pheasants-as-pseudoscience/ Konor, you are beginning to sound a bit like the antis 🤣 Edited February 25 by Conor O'Gorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Konor, you are beginning to sound a bit like the antis 🤣 I am an anti ,an anti any further restrictions on the use of lead shot. The point which you conveniently ignore is the lack of data ,highlighted in my last post, to quantify the generalisations that you invariably fall back on. It’s sloppy thinking ,it was a lack of data to support shooting that got us into this mess yet here you are making the same mistakes Edited February 25 by Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 3 minutes ago, Konor said: I am an anti ,an anti any further restrictions on the use of lead shot. The point which you conveniently ignore is the lack of data ,highlighted in my last post, to quantify the generalisations that you invariably fall back on. It’s sloppy thinking ,it was a lack of data to support shooting that got us into this mess yet here you are making the same mistakes What mess are we in? There is no lead ban thanks to BASC. However, there is a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting and its absolutely your choice to continue using lead shot. Nobody is forcing to to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pukka Bundook Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Welcome to the forum and thread. I will have a look at evidence of lead shot ingestion in birds in Canada. I note that Canada has required that non-lead shot be used in national wildlife areas since 1995, in wetlands since 1997, for hunting most migratory game birds across the country since 1999, and for upland game birds since 2012. Do you know if the National Fishing and Hunting Collaborative, or any individual hunting organisations in Canada have a position on moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting? Good morning Conar, As far as I am aware, there is no plan on the horizon to move away from the use of lead shot where still legal, in a voluntary manner. Areas hunted can be vast here, and the likelihood of a meaningful build-up of lead in specific areas is much less likely than back home in the UK. As an example, for partridges or pheasants, setters or pointers have to be used, as it would take forever to locate birds on the prairie without them, so it can be that shots are taken where they have literally never been fired before. Personally, I find the thought of a tungsten matrix has appeal if it could be successfully harnessed for older barrels, for the simple reason it can be compiled heavier than lead, so a smaller charge of shot of a smaller size could work extremely well.... if the negatives could be overcome! This not for any environmental reason. ATB, Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 17 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: What mess are we in? You’ve made my point for me Conor 😂 Perhaps we need representatives able to recognise the mess so that they can take steps to get us out of it. The very fact that you spend your working days on here may suggest that your own time is being poorly spent in the defence of shooting . Preaching to the converted or perhaps in this case the unconverted. Happily I am now retired so do not have a boss to show my productivity/achievements to justify my salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 The continued use of generalities and complete lack of statistics makes BASC or their representative look a bit silly. I could state that many shoots are going back to lead, or game dealers are indifferent as to how game was shot. Who could argue, without any evidence? As for engaging with the shooting community - it did make me smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 39 minutes ago, Konor said: You’ve made my point for me Conor 😂 Perhaps we need representatives able to recognise the mess so that they can take steps to get us out of it. The very fact that you spend your working days on here may suggest that your own time is being poorly spent in the defence of shooting . Preaching to the converted or perhaps in this case the unconverted. Happily I am now retired so do not have a boss to show my productivity/achievements to justify my salary. Terry Behan has been doing a sterling job representing BASC on lead ammunition on the HSE review and the voluntary transition so hopefully one day you will rise above the keyboard and take up the offer of a phone call with him given your interest in BASC's work on these topics. Do you plan on attending any shows or events in Scotland this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 28 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Terry Behan has been doing a sterling job representing BASC on lead ammunition on the HSE review and the voluntary transition Now there’s part of the mess right away. Giving away any bargaining power by opting for a voluntary transition hoping that it would appease our opponents , that was never going to be a good move. I remember Terry from the video a bit back mmmm. I’m sure to attend something this year though a relocation may affect plans. Perhaps we’ll bump into each other at some Game Fair clay shoot. I tend to avoid the BASC stand in favour of the BDS ,less tweed and more approachable in my experience ,perhaps that is an issue that could be visited. I remember Colin Shedden at various Scone Palace Game Fairs ,I think I’ve attended them all, but on the whole the Moy Game Fair is the least commercial and the most atmospheric I find, in Scotland anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Terry Behan has been doing a sterling job representing BASC on lead ammunition on the HSE review and the voluntary transition so hopefully one day you will rise above the keyboard and take up the offer of a phone call with him given your interest in BASC's work on these topics. Do you plan on attending any shows or events in Scotland this year? Conor Just reading on the BASC website about how BASC are urging .243 to be classified as able to continue to use lead and the fact that 60,000 people will be affected - If part of the move to lead free is to produce meat that can be sold as such what will be done will all these animals all these people cull with .243 and lead - can they not be sold into the market - Is BASC happy then that people risk the health of themselves and their own family eating this if BASC really think its detrimental to health ? It just seems at odds with itself to me Any thoughts / clarifications please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 And 60,000 is little compared to clay shooting participation so why are you not urging to keep lead shot for clay shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 36 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: And 60,000 is little compared to clay shooting participation so why are you not urging to keep lead shot for clay shooting? ^^^ This 💯%^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 4 hours ago, Pukka Bundook said: Good morning Conar, As far as I am aware, there is no plan on the horizon to move away from the use of lead shot where still legal, in a voluntary manner. Areas hunted can be vast here, and the likelihood of a meaningful build-up of lead in specific areas is much less likely than back home in the UK. As an example, for partridges or pheasants, setters or pointers have to be used, as it would take forever to locate birds on the prairie without them, so it can be that shots are taken where they have literally never been fired before. Personally, I find the thought of a tungsten matrix has appeal if it could be successfully harnessed for older barrels, for the simple reason it can be compiled heavier than lead, so a smaller charge of shot of a smaller size could work extremely well.... if the negatives could be overcome! This not for any environmental reason. ATB, Rich. Thanks Rich, I spent a summer picking tobacco somewhere near Simcoe in Ontario many moons ago and compared to the few acres fields in the West of Ireland, the scale of just the farmland that went on forever was astonishing, let alone the wilder places, which I mostly only got to see out of the airplane over the northern territories. I read in report below that lead shot ingestion in dryland habitats has been documented in Canada in mourning doves, northern bobwhite, partridge, pheasant, ruffed grouse, scaled quail, wild turkey and woodpigeon. https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2020/eccc/cw66/CW66-610-1999-eng.pdf Also wider info here: https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/health/Scheuhammer_and_Norris_1995.pdf Elsewhere, most research and concern seems to be around mourning doves (100 million shots a year in N. America but no data for Canada?) but I have barely scratched the surface of all the information - as with the big landscapes on the continent, also big data, presumably carried out and funded by hunting permits etc. This was an interesting find - Upland Steel 410 Bore 6 Shot Size for doves and other upland game: https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/federal-upland-waterfowl/upland-steel/11-USH410+6.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 3 hours ago, Konor said: Now there’s part of the mess right away. Giving away any bargaining power by opting for a voluntary transition hoping that it would appease our opponents , that was never going to be a good move. I remember Terry from the video a bit back mmmm. I’m sure to attend something this year though a relocation may affect plans. Perhaps we’ll bump into each other at some Game Fair clay shoot. I tend to avoid the BASC stand in favour of the BDS ,less tweed and more approachable in my experience ,perhaps that is an issue that could be visited. I remember Colin Shedden at various Scone Palace Game Fairs ,I think I’ve attended them all, but on the whole the Moy Game Fair is the least commercial and the most atmospheric I find, in Scotland anyway. Thanks. Do let me know in advance by PM which fairs you are attending and a visit to the BASC stand might be most helpful for yourself and BASC staff to discuss respective concerns. The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry was and continues to be about doing the right thing as conservationists who care about nature and animal welfare. The latest update is here: https://basc.org.uk/five-years-on-sustaining-the-transition-away-from-lead/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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