Lead shot ingestion in birds

[Konor]

21 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

There are many bird species ingesting lead shot for various reasons in various habitats and the science and our understanding continues to grow.

Which I take it infers a link between lead ingestion and population impact , perhaps as that science and understanding grows it will show conclusively that lead ingestion has no impact on game bird populations rather than at the minute failing to show any measurable impact so far.

On 17/02/2025 at 20:02, Old farrier said:

Sadly most of the links are historical not really relevant to non migratory game birds with a expected lifespan of 2 years here’s a chart from some of the data to save members reading a manuscript with no mention of the impact habitat loss has on the population 

A much needed sense of perspective.

[Conor O'Gorman]

We have been discussing the evidence that various bird species ingest lead shot, mistaking it as grit/seeds, and now for something rather different, above ground, here is an interesting case study on woodpeckers, which, if there were a primary exposure risk pathway from lead shot embedded in trees from various shooting activities, suggested as 'probable' by the scientists, there could be a potential concern for UK species such as nuthatch, lesser spotted woodpecker, and great spotted woodpecker ingesting lead shot and suffering sub-lethal and lethal effects as a result.

Lead poisoning in woodpeckers in Sweden (1999)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10574536/ 

Lead poisoning was demonstrated in two gray-headed woodpeckers (Picus canus) and one white-backed woodpecker (Dendrocopus leucotos) in Sweden; they had liver lead levels between 9.4 and 26.2 mg21 wet weight. At necropsy one gray-headed woodpecker showed signs of emaciation and the other one had severe traumatic injuries, caused by a cat.

The white-backed woodpecker died in the transportation box during a translocation program. The source of the lead could not be determined, but it was suspected that it may have originated from lead pellets shot into trees and picked out by the woodpeckers during food search.

A probable cause of deposition of lead in these trees are lead pellets from hunting with shotguns. When shooting in a forest, pellets will penetrate the bark or deeper layers of trees that are in the line of fire. Holes made in the bark resemble holes made by insects and may signal woodpeckers that insect larvae may reside in these trees, and to increase their foraging there. This behavior might result in woodpeckers ingesting lead pellets, mistaking them for food items.

Our findings have resulted in further studies on lead exposure and tissue levels in approximately 40 dead woodpeckers of other species that occur in Sweden (Dendrocopus spp., Picus viridis, Dryocopus martius). So far, no new cases with elevated levels of lead or any findings of lead pellets in the gizzards of these birds have been demonstrated (T. Morner, unpubl. data). Gray-headed and white-backed woodpeckers are both rare species in Scandinavia (Rosenberg, 1953; Aulen and Carlsson, 1990) and our findings of lead poisoning in these species may indicate a special risk for these declining populations of woodpeckers.

 

[Konor]

21 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

We have been discussing the evidence that various bird species ingest lead shot, mistaking it as grit/seeds, and now for something rather different, above ground, here is an interesting case study on woodpeckers, which, if there were a primary exposure risk pathway from lead shot embedded in trees from various shooting activities, suggested as 'probable' by the scientists, there could be a potential concern for UK species such as nuthatch, lesser spotted woodpecker, and great spotted woodpecker ingesting lead shot and suffering sub-lethal and lethal effects as a result.

Lead poisoning in woodpeckers in Sweden (1999)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10574536/ 

Lead poisoning was demonstrated in two gray-headed woodpeckers (Picus canus) and one white-backed woodpecker (Dendrocopus leucotos) in Sweden; they had liver lead levels between 9.4 and 26.2 mg21 wet weight. At necropsy one gray-headed woodpecker showed signs of emaciation and the other one had severe traumatic injuries, caused by a cat.

The white-backed woodpecker died in the transportation box during a translocation program. The source of the lead could not be determined, but it was suspected that it may have originated from lead pellets shot into trees and picked out by the woodpeckers during food search.

A probable cause of deposition of lead in these trees are lead pellets from hunting with shotguns. When shooting in a forest, pellets will penetrate the bark or deeper layers of trees that are in the line of fire. Holes made in the bark resemble holes made by insects and may signal woodpeckers that insect larvae may reside in these trees, and to increase their foraging there. This behavior might result in woodpeckers ingesting lead pellets, mistaking them for food items.

Our findings have resulted in further studies on lead exposure and tissue levels in approximately 40 dead woodpeckers of other species that occur in Sweden (Dendrocopus spp., Picus viridis, Dryocopus martius). So far, no new cases with elevated levels of lead or any findings of lead pellets in the gizzards of these birds have been demonstrated (T. Morner, unpubl. data). Gray-headed and white-backed woodpeckers are both rare species in Scandinavia (Rosenberg, 1953; Aulen and Carlsson, 1990) and our findings of lead poisoning in these species may indicate a special risk for these declining populations of woodpeckers.

 

A liberal dose of probable , potential, could not be determined, suspected ,may have ,may indicate and might in that case study Conor. It fits in with the level of certainty of all the other links supplied but hardly conclusive evidence that supports your need for further lead shot restrictions

[jall25]

 

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

We have been discussing the evidence that various bird species ingest lead shot, mistaking it as grit/seeds, and now for something rather different, above ground, here is an interesting case study on woodpeckers, which, if there were a primary exposure risk pathway from lead shot embedded in trees from various shooting activities, suggested as 'probable' by the scientists, there could be a potential concern for UK species such as nuthatch, lesser spotted woodpecker, and great spotted woodpecker ingesting lead shot and suffering sub-lethal and lethal effects as a result.

Lead poisoning in woodpeckers in Sweden (1999)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10574536/ 

Lead poisoning was demonstrated in two gray-headed woodpeckers (Picus canus) and one white-backed woodpecker (Dendrocopus leucotos) in Sweden; they had liver lead levels between 9.4 and 26.2 mg21 wet weight. At necropsy one gray-headed woodpecker showed signs of emaciation and the other one had severe traumatic injuries, caused by a cat.

The white-backed woodpecker died in the transportation box during a translocation program. The source of the lead could not be determined, but it was suspected that it may have originated from lead pellets shot into trees and picked out by the woodpeckers during food search.

A probable cause of deposition of lead in these trees are lead pellets from hunting with shotguns. When shooting in a forest, pellets will penetrate the bark or deeper layers of trees that are in the line of fire. Holes made in the bark resemble holes made by insects and may signal woodpeckers that insect larvae may reside in these trees, and to increase their foraging there. This behavior might result in woodpeckers ingesting lead pellets, mistaking them for food items.

Our findings have resulted in further studies on lead exposure and tissue levels in approximately 40 dead woodpeckers of other species that occur in Sweden (Dendrocopus spp., Picus viridis, Dryocopus martius). So far, no new cases with elevated levels of lead or any findings of lead pellets in the gizzards of these birds have been demonstrated (T. Morner, unpubl. data). Gray-headed and white-backed woodpeckers are both rare species in Scandinavia (Rosenberg, 1953; Aulen and Carlsson, 1990) and our findings of lead poisoning in these species may indicate a special risk for these declining populations of woodpeckers.

 

Im in the woods - every day - we have loads of woodpeckers - I have only ever found 1 dead one i saw hit a tree in a gale 

Im really not sure this wild speculation is helping anything Conor 

[Konor]

29 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Im really not sure this wild speculation is helping anything Conor

It wouldn’t surprise me if it was intended to serve a purpose. 

[McSpredder]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

..... here is an interesting case study on woodpeckers, which, if there were a primary exposure risk pathway from lead shot embedded in trees from various shooting activities, suggested as 'probable' by the scientists, there could be a potential concern for UK species such as nuthatch, lesser spotted woodpecker, and great spotted woodpecker ingesting lead shot and suffering sub-lethal and lethal effects as a result.

Anybody who reads the full report will see that the authors only suspected woodpeckers had ingested pellets from trees.   They did not mention any attempt to find out whether this actually happened, not did they mention any consideration of other possible sources of lead in the bodies.

Readers may also note that:

“The cause of death in one of the gray-headed woodpeckers was emaciation and, in the second, traumatic injuries caused by a cat. The white-backed woodpecker died in the transportation box during a translocation program and showed signs of acute stress with acute congestion in the liver, spleen, lungs, and kidneys. Necropsy revealed no findings of lead pellets in the gastrointestinal tract. Tissue samples from liver, spleen, heart, kidneys, and brain were taken for microscopic examination and fixed in 10% neutral buffered formalin. Formalin fixed organs were embedded in paraffin, cut in 5mm thick slices, and stained with hematoxylin and eosin (Luna, 1968). Histological examination showed no signs of pathological changes, nor any lesions typical for lead poisoning such as inclusion bodies in the kidneys (Bageley and Locke, 1967)”.

[Konor]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

We have been discussing the evidence that various bird species ingest lead shot, mistaking it as grit/seeds, and now for something rather different, above ground, here is an interesting case study on woodpeckers, which, if there were a primary exposure risk pathway from lead shot embedded in trees from various shooting activities, suggested as 'probable' by the scientists, there could be a potential concern for UK species such as nuthatch, lesser spotted woodpecker, and great spotted woodpecker ingesting lead shot and suffering sub-lethal and lethal effects as a result.

It wouldn’t surprise me if this level of study was linked to aspirations of a lifestyle where studies like these are used to create a barrier to the reality of the outside world  and that their main purpose is to create a comfort zone and income stream for academics who find it hard to find a niche outside academia.

[Penelope]

On 28/02/2025 at 16:38, Conor O'Gorman said:

There is a risk of lead shot ingestion by various species of ducks, geese and other wildfowl in wetlands and terrestrial habitats, and a risk of lead shot ingestion by various other bird species in terrestrial habitats. So far we have looked at evidence of lead shot ingestion as follows:

UK - grey partridge, red grouse, pheasant and red-legged partridge. 
Spain - woodpigeon, rock dove, stock dove, turtle-dove, Barbary partridge and common quail .
Bulgaria - grey pheasant, partridge, quail and turtle dove. 
USA - American woodcock, bobwhite quail, chukar partridge and mourning doves.
Canada - pheasant, chukar partridge, ruffed grouse.

Referring to lead pellet (or bullet fragment) ingestion by humans, ol' chap.

[Old farrier]

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

We have been discussing the evidence that various bird species ingest lead shot, mistaking it as grit/seeds, and now for something rather different, above ground, here is an interesting case study on woodpeckers, which, if there were a primary exposure risk pathway from lead shot embedded in trees from various shooting activities, suggested as 'probable' by the scientists, there could be a potential concern for UK species such as nuthatch, lesser spotted woodpecker, and great spotted woodpecker ingesting lead shot and suffering sub-lethal and lethal effects as a result.

Lead poisoning in woodpeckers in Sweden (1999)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10574536/ 

Lead poisoning was demonstrated in two gray-headed woodpeckers (Picus canus) and one white-backed woodpecker (Dendrocopus leucotos) in Sweden; they had liver lead levels between 9.4 and 26.2 mg21 wet weight. At necropsy one gray-headed woodpecker showed signs of emaciation and the other one had severe traumatic injuries, caused by a cat.

The white-backed woodpecker died in the transportation box during a translocation program. The source of the lead could not be determined, but it was suspected that it may have originated from lead pellets shot into trees and picked out by the woodpeckers during food search.

A probable cause of deposition of lead in these trees are lead pellets from hunting with shotguns. When shooting in a forest, pellets will penetrate the bark or deeper layers of trees that are in the line of fire. Holes made in the bark resemble holes made by insects and may signal woodpeckers that insect larvae may reside in these trees, and to increase their foraging there. This behavior might result in woodpeckers ingesting lead pellets, mistaking them for food items.

Our findings have resulted in further studies on lead exposure and tissue levels in approximately 40 dead woodpeckers of other species that occur in Sweden (Dendrocopus spp., Picus viridis, Dryocopus martius). So far, no new cases with elevated levels of lead or any findings of lead pellets in the gizzards of these birds have been demonstrated (T. Morner, unpubl. data). Gray-headed and white-backed woodpeckers are both rare species in Scandinavia (Rosenberg, 1953; Aulen and Carlsson, 1990) and our findings of lead poisoning in these species may indicate a special risk for these declining populations of woodpeckers.

 

More chance of death from tar and creasote on a telegraph pole 

now for what it’s worth I’m beginning to think that you are a anti in the wrong job 

a fox in the hen house 

answer some of the questions and prove me wrong 

the impact of lead on game birds compared to the impact af predation farming practices and habitat loss is virtually insignificant 

please remember that we the game shooting community/industry breed import and release millions of game birds each year 

[Conor O'Gorman]

9 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Anybody who reads the full report will see that the authors only suspected woodpeckers had ingested pellets from trees.   They did not mention any attempt to find out whether this actually happened, not did they mention any consideration of other possible sources of lead in the bodies.

Readers may also note that:

“The cause of death in one of the gray-headed woodpeckers was emaciation and, in the second, traumatic injuries caused by a cat. The white-backed woodpecker died in the transportation box during a translocation program and showed signs of acute stress with acute congestion in the liver, spleen, lungs, and kidneys. Necropsy revealed no findings of lead pellets in the gastrointestinal tract. Tissue samples from liver, spleen, heart, kidneys, and brain were taken for microscopic examination and fixed in 10% neutral buffered formalin. Formalin fixed organs were embedded in paraffin, cut in 5mm thick slices, and stained with hematoxylin and eosin (Luna, 1968). Histological examination showed no signs of pathological changes, nor any lesions typical for lead poisoning such as inclusion bodies in the kidneys (Bageley and Locke, 1967)”.

Yes, as per the abstract I shared, it's a hypothesis for other scientists to follow-up on. We shall see in due course. That's essentially how the field of ecology works. 

Stable isotope analysis is a tool being used to identify the source of lead as per some research on American woodcock, written up below, which is a cause for concern as regards a similar issue in UK woodcock, yet to be researched.

https://projectupland.com/hunting-conservation/american-woodcock-accumulate-lead-according-to-study/

Perhaps you could post one or two examples of studies that show that birds ingest lead shot and suffer ill effects and why you agree with those findings. You could choose from some of those I have posted about, or some others. 

[Konor]

47 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes, as per the abstract I shared, it's a hypothesis for other scientists to follow-up on. We shall see in due course. That's essentially how the field of ecology works. 

All well and good Conor but could you man up and explain the purpose of posting all this inconclusive material when at present the shooting community is faced with further legislative restrictions on the use of lead shot when there is no evidence to support it.

You coast your way through this thread chanting your mantras devoid of any scientific supporting evidence riddled with maybes and potentials I am amazed that in light of this that you are still employed by  BASC now , in my mind at least ,a doubtful voice of shooting due to your ill thought through postings .

 

[Konor]

It seems that you spend all day on social media , would it be too much to expect that you engaged in a more profitable use of your time by working on behalf of shooting rather than against it.

 Need I remind you that your job is to represent shooters not create personal agendas and use your allocated work time to promote them.

Perhaps BASC would like to comment on the forum and inform forum members to what extent this conflict of interests is supported by them.

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

More chance of death from tar and creasote on a telegraph pole 

now for what it’s worth I’m beginning to think that you are a anti in the wrong job 

a fox in the hen house 

answer some of the questions and prove me wrong 

the impact of lead on game birds compared to the impact af predation farming practices and habitat loss is virtually insignificant 

please remember that we the game shooting community/industry breed import and release millions of game birds each year 

He won’t prove you wrong OF , he avoids any interaction with points raised that question his non science and he seems incapable of seeing the issue in perspective. It appears that the lead shot issue is dear to his heart and he is attempting to create a niche for himself as an authority on the subject based on cataloguing a set of inconclusive data.
Perhaps comparable to the folk tale An  Emperor’s New Clothes where instead of two con men and a magical fabric that could be spun into the finest suit we have Conor and his catalogue of inconclusive science riding on a woke agenda of virtue signalling.

 

[Konor]

Perhaps Terry Behan ,mentioned earlier as doing sterling work for BASC on the lead shot issue and a member of the forum ,would care to comment on the credibility of the information presented on this thread and state whether this thread is in effect an own goal when BASC policy is to oppose further lead shot restrictions.

Edited 9 hours ago by Konor
Addition

[mellors]

11 minutes ago, Konor said:

It seems that you spend all day on social media , would it be too much to expect that you engaged in a more profitable use of your time by working on behalf of shooting rather than against it.

 Need I remind you that your job is to represent shooters not create personal agendas and use your allocated work time to promote them.

Perhaps BASC would like to comment on the forum and inform forum members to what extent this conflict of interests is supported by them.

Hi konor. 

They have a plan unfortunately not not for supporting our sport or the paying members. 

There seems to be a move to the conservation support side hoping to justify there position and keep there jobs whilst we're paying for it, we've been thrown under the bus on every attack on our sport. 

They had the the chance to say no evidence no ban but since then all we see in there replies, emails and magazines is various data to supposedly support the 5 year transition they put forward on our behalf . 

 

 

 

[Konor]

8 minutes ago, mellors said:

Hi konor. 

They have a plan unfortunately not not for supporting our sport or the paying members. 

There seems to be a move to the conservation support side hoping to justify there position and keep there jobs whilst we're paying for it, we've been thrown under the bus on every attack on our sport. 

They had the the chance to say no evidence no ban but since then all we see in there replies, emails and magazines is various data to supposedly support the 5 year transition they put forward on our behalf . 

 

 

 

Unfortunately I think you’re right and a role closer to the pure conservation organisations may be their goal. Perhaps the decline in numbers of shooters due to our aging participants sees them worrying about their future. With employees like CO I’d be equally worried about their  present. He almost bears comparison to Chris Packham in many respects. Can you actually believe that it is plausible that a BASC employee could provoke such a comparison. There’s obviously something amiss in our representative organisation when it seems reasonable to make such a statement.

 Perhaps Terry Behan will post and the degree of support for the content of this thread can be gauged.

[clangerman]

17 minutes ago, mellors said:

They had the the chance to say no evidence no ban but since then all we see in there replies, emails and magazines is various data to supposedly support the 5 year transition they put forward on our behalf . 

 

 

 

your not wrong there so no surprise the only people who can see it’s raining corpses are basc! 

[harkom]

12 hours ago, Konor said:

It wouldn’t surprise me if this level of study was linked to aspirations of a lifestyle where studies like these are used to create a barrier to the reality of the outside world  and that their main purpose is to create a comfort zone and income stream for academics who find it hard to find a niche outside academia.

Never a truer word..... and hmmm also applies to the wannabes in shooting (in the foot) organisations as well as the conservationologists.

[welsh1]

Enough is enough.

There are some on here making it very personal,this is a forum not basc, if you want to change their policy go and get yourself elected onto their board.

Basc,post on here to keep people informed,and while we and they no doubt welcome debate this simply isn't, this is bordering on obsession by some.

Oh and cats are banned, take the hint when your first cat post vanishes, don't go and post it a second time, read the rules.