Fisherman Mike Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I know this is an old chestnut and will no doubt open a few old sores but I thoroughly detest seeing the pictures of 100,s of birds laid out trophy fashion in the shooting periodicals. It gives the flippant impression that the birds dont count for much and the thrill of the kill and display of the trophy is all that matters. In the recent Sporting Gun there were pictures of 3 -4 hundred birds laid out. Why do these people feel they have to display birds like this. I dont think this is Sporting in the very least ! The editor even printed under one picture that the shooter had "loose fed" the field for several days beforehand obviously unaware that this is outside the remit of the General Licence, unsporting and in my opinion completely amoral. I wonder if any of us consider the actual wording of the licence under which we legally shoot pigeon. I have to be very careful in my area since much of the land I shoot is close to a DEFRA office, and many farmers dont want me shooting on stubble or the like as essentially there is no crop to protect. Also like it or not, if you take a bird outside the remit of the General licence you are technically commiting an offence as Pigeon are afforded the same protection under the Countryside & Wildlife act as any other bird, in this respect. I think that these pictures could potentially do more damage than good and doesnt increase my admiration for the marksmanship of the shooters involved........quite the opposite in fact. I would like people to think a little before submitting such pictures and editors to do similar before posting them to print. I have shot bags of 150 plus regularly in the past, over rape or peas, mainly but ive never needed to brag about it and have been just happy in my own mind that ive helped the Farmer out and within the confines of the General Licence. Im sure some of you members have an opinion on this it would be nice to know what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I wonder what King George V would make of that view? He famously drew the line at shooting 4,000 pheasants in one day in 1913. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I wonder what King George V would make of that view? He famously drew the line at shooting 4,000 pheasants in one day in 1913. Top Bloke :wacko: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Fisherman mike . I couldnt agree with you more . This dos not show our sport in agood light . I have never felt the need to take pictures of birds and animals that i have shot ,let alone publish them for all to see . May be i would take a picture of a trophy buck if i was ever lucky enough to shoot one ,for my own refference only . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob300w Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Fisherman mike . I couldnt agree with you more . This dos not show our sport in agood light . I have never felt the need to take pictures of birds and animals that i have shot ,let alone publish them for all to see . May be i would take a picture of a trophy buck if i was ever lucky enough to shoot one ,for my own refference only . Harnser . I take your point Harnser, but is there a difference between showing a photograph of one dead animal and 50? Also, how far should we bow down to the anti's? Do you not think that we should be fighting our corner, rather than being on the defence all of the time? It's sad the way that the sport has gone in my lifetime, when I was a boy, I used to walk through the village with my gun under my arm, nobody batted an eyelid, now I look up and down the road before walking with a gun to my motor, that is on my drive. How has it come about that we are made to feel guilty for carrying out a legitimate sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I have a book titled "The Big Shots," with lots of lovely Edwardian photographs of monumental bags, Payne-Gallwey's gun room (three, count 'em, three punt guns on the wall, a few bows, a dozen shotguns, etc) you all get the idea. These chaps knew how to enjoy themselves and wanted photos for posterity: is there anything wrong with that? One may argue that publishing said photos is provocative, but it it? Presuming the bag is split between Shots, beaters and the local game dealer, there's no waste, therefore the blood sport fanatics are answered. Environmentally, golf (with is huge water demands) is more damaging, so when all is said and done, why not take a few pictures? Personally, I only took at myself in the photos, resplendent in rather dashing tweeds, having worked up a sweat thrashing the scullery maid before the first drive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codling99 Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 well personally,i like to see pics of peoples dyas or nights out,and do take pictures of everything i shoot.if i went out tonight and shott 10 foxes for example,i be first to post pic on here :wacko: thats my slant on this topic :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEE D Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 i agree with codling99 on this one i think its good to see how peoples days or night have gone on its nice to see people enjoying therself in the picture of ther bag how ever big or small but different people have different opinions but ther we go :blink: :wacko: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I don`t feel guilty about pictures of one or one hundred birds, beasts or fish as I like to look back on what were for good days. I certainly don`t take pictures of everything I shoot and I certainly don`t post every outing I have on this board, but thats just me. I have taken people out shooting/ferreting/fishing etc. and the biggest pleasure is seeing them enjoying themselves and as has been said above where do you draw the line , 50+ 100+ or just one ? The general license is a cause for concern and the editor and shooter should be brought to task about any mention of baiting. It is however a nightmare as do we then say you can`t shoot over decoys or roost shoot ?? IMHO - Anytime you shoot a Woodpigeon whether it be on stubble, rape or up in the trees you are by definition protecting crops as you have taken an agricultural pest out ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Bob ,you are absolutely right in saying that we as shooters should defend our rights to hunt and own guns .I have always defended my right to pursue the sport that i love . The last big defence of shooting sports was with the pistol ban and many thousands of shooters rallied in london and lobbied our m.p.'s (the shower of gutless ,lying ,theiving ,sublifes ) and i know that you will remember it all and i am sure that you would have been there . My point here is that their were no pictures of dead animals or people walking around with magnum pistols in their belts or pictures of people enjoying themselfs with guns ,and there is nothing wrong with people enjoying themselfs with guns i do it at least 4 times a week .But we lost the day and the scum of government took our pistols away .What i am trying to say is ,if they try to attack field sports it would be more emotive with all these pictures of hundreds of game birds laying dead on the ground and foxs blown to pieces .We as shooters know the vermin has to be controlled and shooting is the most humane way .But any body who has not be involved in the country side or shooting will not understand and there are more people out there who do not understand than us who do . Let me just add that there is nothing wrong with keeping a photgraphic record of your days out but keep them to your self and people who understand and dont put them on the internet for the anties to see . This is also real troll fodder . harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob300w Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Harnser; I must agree with you that the "thin end of the wedge" was when our pistols were taken, and yes, I was on the London marches, for what little good they did. The result was a foregone conclusion, much like the new runways at Heathrow and Stansted. Your statement ; "But any body who has not been involved in the country side or shooting will not understand and there are more people out there who do not understand than us who do " surely can be no better demonstrated by the foxhunting ban. My main point however, is that we have been made to feel social outcasts for shooting, whether clays or live game, a complete turn-around from when I was a boy, how has this been achieved? Could we have done anything to prevent it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 FM have you sent your post in to the Ed of Sporting Gun, I think you should as there are a number of very valid and legal points that I'll lay a penny to a pound neither the Ed or more than half the readership know sod all about and should be put straight. Who for instance knows that now the General Licence is administered by Natural England and not DEFRA...and you think our sport is safe??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 FM have you sent your post in to the Ed of Sporting Gun, I think you should as there are a number of very valid and legal points that I'll lay a penny to a pound neither the Ed or more than half the readership know sod all about and should be put straight. Who for instance knows that now the General Licence is administered by Natural England and not DEFRA...and you think our sport is safe??? This I will consider doing, though its obvious that the editor of said magazine is ignorant of the Law and sadly many of our own Forum members are too. Pigeon are plentiful in the UK at the moment but things can change very quickly in the natural world. I strongly believe that we should put ourselves beyond any anti shooting criticism and shoot responsibly within the rules laid down by statute if we dont embrace this and continue the way we are sooner or later the bird will come off the general list and will possibly go the same way as Fox Hunting. History illustrates that country sports are being whittled away year by year. Go forth and protect crops by all means but do it sensibly and legally and with some compassion for your quarry, Isnt that the true meaning of sportsmanship ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markio Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Well ****** me, a reasoned discussion on the boards. You don't see many of these, what a refreshing change! As far as the original post, i kind of agree. I think from an anti perspective the whole idea of it being a sport is the issue. To them, there is no such such thing as showing a blood sport in the right light, it's a blood sport and therefore wrong, pictures or not. So it doesn't make any difference. The fact is that for me personal, when i get the chance, it's not the shooting of animals in it's own right that i enjoy but the process of killing and preparing that meat for my plate. One day i hope i have the chance to shoot a bird, on the way to the back door with said bird in my hand i can pick some potatoes etc from the garden and cook the lot up as dinner. It's a small thought but a process i'd enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 FM's post is up to his usual high standard If people insist on posting big bags they would do well to add a footnote saying they have spent time trying to scare the birds by the use of bangers, flags, kites etc as per the requirements of the licence. LB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Country Boy Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) Re:WOODPIGEON SHOOTING Firstly I must say that I do not condone publicising ANY bags, it is completely un-necessary. Tell your farmer "I shot 80 yesterday" and weigh them in accordingly. But often bags are laid out nicely as respect for the birds and to record by camera and remember a particular day when skill with the gun and fieldcraft paid off for you. It should be made clear to Joe Public that those 100 dead pigeon in the photo are merely the tinyest tip of 'gert big iceberg' each one with the potential to eat up to 50gr of food per day. Personally I think the shooting magazines have much to answer for, each month, each year the same drivel is churned out glorifying pigeon shooting, all in the name of selling more magazines. C.B. Edited March 21, 2008 by Country Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 I like to see how many pigeons are shot by members on here and shown in SPORTING PICTURES and hope that others like the look of my bag(s) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Country Boy Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Further to my last post. IF large bags of pigeons are shown,regardless of how they were achieved, they only reflect how bountiful the species has become and what a threat pigeons are to our own food resorces. As a shooting man, the involvement in the Open General Licence by this new public body called English Nature has me worried, some of their aims and goals are underlyingly quite sinister, oh sure they profess conservation and a countryside for all, all that is except us shooting folk, I hope I'm wrong but just watch them over the next few years. Who are they, who created it, what powers do they have, why did DEFRA pass their involvement in the general licence to them, why did'nt they pass it to the BASC, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS FOR US. C.B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) Country Boy English Nature no longer exists ( it ceased to exist 18 months ago ). It was incorporated with 2 other countryside agencies into Natural England. Part of its government remit is protection of the UKs wildlife and landscapes. It is funded by DEFRA another government dept. BASC is a private organisation with nothing to do with the government so the government cant pass on law enforcement to it. That would be like putting the AA or RAC in charge of our highway laws. As a whole Natural England’s approach to shooting is even handed , sometimes coming out against it if there is an overriding conservation reason sometimes coming out in favour , i.e. giving grants to wildfowling clubs to buy land that the RSPB were after. Do not be fooled by some people in the shooting press into thinking it is an anti shooting organisation. Like any cross section of any organisation there individuals within it scattered across a wide range of views on shooting , but as a whole the organisation is neutral over shooting. However a number of the staff shoot ( in my area 5 staff shoot to my knowledge and up north one of the managers ( still a keen shooter ) used to be one of the top officials in BASC. Edited March 21, 2008 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Country Boy Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Yeah thanks ansa2 got my keks in a twist and my blood pressure going I thank you for clarifying things for me much appreciated dear boy. C.B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) I dont like to see over 50s naked posing in playboy 50+, ............so I dont buy it! just my 2pence worth.. Edited March 21, 2008 by chrispti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 I dont like to see over 50s naked posing in playboy 50+, ............so I dont buy it! just my 2pence worth.. If you did buy that particular magazine Chris you would expect to see naked women. However if I buy Sporting Gun I do so for 95% of the articles that are relevent to my sport, of which legitimate pigeon shooting is just a part. However if I see something which undermines the sport or which I percieve could irreparably damage it then I am very concerned. I am afraid the simple fact remains that many of us and I would say over 90%, shoot pigeons outside of the guidelines of the general licence because we like to do so. Sooner or later ( and I am very confident in this statement) we will be bought to task over it and the general licence will be rescinded. This will happen unless we put our house in order and the display of such pictures in my opinion is just lengthening the hangmans rope and bringing that day just a little closer. Do we see 3 or 4 hundred pheasants, partridges, or grouse laid neatly out for a photo shoot ? of course we dont because the damage which such pictures would do on an impressionable public to a industry which is already under intense scrutiny would be manifest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) I havent seen any pictures on this site, that suggest pigeons,corvids etc where shot because the shooter ''liked to do so''. Every one I know has permission to shoot on land for a good reason ie crop protection etc. I also think it would be hard to prove that some one has shot 100 pigeons for 'fun' and not for a ligitimate reason. However I do agree with you on this from your original post, ''The editor even printed under one picture that the shooter had "loose fed" the field for several days beforehand obviously unaware that this is outside the remit of the General Licence, unsporting and in my opinion completely amoral.'' Statements lke that dont do anyone any favours. I personaly feel that wildfowling is at more risk??? Edited March 21, 2008 by chrispti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 We have a simple choice under the present EU and UK law. Have a general licence with its restrictions or put wood pigeons on the game\wildfowl list and have a closed season for them. Under EU law we cant go back to the old free for all system for pest species. However there may be room for tweaking the EU rules on pest species a little. On the subject of seeing bags of pigeons in the sporting press. On the one hand It may upset some anti shooting ( for some reason within the majority of the bird watching community there seems an acceptance of pigeon shooting ) , but perhaps more importantly if illustrates the number of pigeons about and their potential for crop damage. And its this potential for crop damage that is most likely to influence the government as to its policy on pest control. Perhaps pictures of some forum members biting the heads off wounded pigeons may be going a bit far ( see a forum post a few months ago in talk from the field ) but as long as respect is shown for the birds and the picture looks tidy ( i.e. not too much blood or clouds of feathers ) I think there is no problem showing pictures of wood pigeons or any other common quarry species. I think it would be a shame if for the sake of political correctness if we no longer saw the results of a days sport in our magazines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 I agree with you there anser2, good call mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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