white fox Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 The owners of the estate where I shoot pigeon etc. and help with keeping, beating, also a number of free pheasant days, have asked me to organise one of the younger guns (25ish) with a pigeon day in February for him and two of his mates. The owner is petrified of three inexperienced guns roaming around the estate, so that is where I come in. I thought of using my hide, but this can only hold two people, I actually have never shot with anyone else in the hide with me, and I am aware of the possible dangers of this, and the full understanding each gun must have. (sitting-standing etc) So how can I achieve this supervised day., or do we all just walk about in the woods. I need a plan, please help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene molloy Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 I wouldn't contemplate letting three novices roam around; so here are my suggestions and reasons..... Suggest Never ever let two people shoot from the same hide, get them separated. Reason Much higher survival rate (but you knew that) If the ground and the crop will stand it, get the three of them in separate hides. Shooting from hides will be much easier for you to control and so much safer. It isn't always neccessary to use nets, you can chop into a rough corner, stand in a ditch, roll a few big bales together or whatever. Depending on where you live, I'm sure the lads in here will loan you a net or two if you are really stuck. If you are within say 40 miles of Bridgnorth, I can let you have a couple. Suggest Roost shooting is fun and easy for you to control. Lay it on. Reason They shoot upwards! And you can insist that they don't move about. Don't shoot the woodies between now and then, give them a rest; and decouple the gas guns if you can. Best I can do Flower. Eug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Well said eug,we don`t need any blood baths.I tried shooting with my pal,who I trust,in the same hide,and the amount of times we were both staring down the others barrels was frightening.Everyone who shoots is aware of where their muzzle is pointed,when decoying alone because you don`t want to look foolish :*) when they find you the next day minus head and the dog covered in claret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 I would not have two guns shooting from the same hide, you may have to leave your gun at home. If they are complete novices, you may suggest taking them one at a time, this would also help out on the equipment front. Eugene's roost shooting suggestion is a real winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 I would not have two guns shooting from the same hide, you may have to leave your gun at home.If they are complete novices, you may suggest taking them one at a time, this would also help out on the equipment front. Cranfields statement , absolutly not two guns in the same proximity SCARY White fox, an alternative to single's day ,would be taking a single gun ,you will have absolute control over the sittuation, with observers, hopefully taking notes and learning . Then you needn't worry about a gun in the ear ,and concentrate on the one shooter, giving each a break. good luck ,and safe shooting . Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 I think that Eugine has sumed up to situation to a tee. Roost shooting seems the ideal under your circumstances, even beter, could the group be split up and if possible enlist the assistance of another experienced gun? I also like the idea of a single gun, much safer and more birds for you later. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyni Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Just a side note, I agree with all of the above but I don't think there is anything wrong with taking a novice into a hide with you and sharing a gun. That way you can point out safety whilst shooting in a hide and teach the art of decoying pigeons at the same time. To put two novices in two seperate hides in the same field over the same decoys is asking for trouble. Leaving a novice in a hide on his own in another field is also asking for troble. We often share hides when out (its more sociable) but take it in turns with the shots. Totally safe. Two guns shooting from one hide is a big NO NO Roost shooting on this occaison would definately sound the best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remytherussell Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 We regularly shoot two guns in one hide but both are VERY experienced. Just stick a twig up in the centre front, dont swing past this and always face the front and your own side only. But NOT for novices. RTR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 White Fox, Three inexperienced guns? I think the choices are, Three experienced teachers, one for each pupil, or just 1 gun and you supervise each one in turn.I would not fancy being in the company of novices out alone roost shooting or not.Salopian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white fox Posted December 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Cheers everyone, that was a grand response from some wise old dogs. I will put the plan together for February with just one gun at a time, either in my hide or roost, the others will have to sit hidden and quiet on observation duty, no bad thing. Safety is the most important factor, just imagine if it went wrong, so this way all should be just fine. If they find it boring just watching then perhaps this game is not for them. Remind me in February to let you know how it works out WF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 White Fox, Do all the Guns have certificates? If they don't then there are other issues. Just a thought. Best regards Rimfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 whitefox I have given this problem some further thought, and Im not too happy! Assuming that the three persons are all inexperienced? is it right to expose live quarry to such novices. Would it be possible for you to obtain an electric trap, and practice on some incomers in the morning, and then take up eugines suggestion of a single gun roost shoot at the apropriate time. Obviously make sure that the clays are shot well away from where you intend to roost shoot webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white fox Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 The young chap (part of the landowners extended family) does have a shotgun and I have seen him shoot on pheasant days, albeit a bit crappy. The Owner of the shoot is a stickler for legality, quite rightly so, I assume the chap has a licence for his shotgun, but I will check, also that he has some valid insurance. As for his other two mates, I have no idea on their experience or even if they own shotguns. Even if they don't, then there is nothing wrong or illegal for them using my gun supervised, that's what I was planning. I will put this all to the family at this Saturday's shoot, and maybe get the Landowner to join us on the day. The estate is not overun with pigeon, so don't expect too much shooting to take place, I normally only have a couple of busy 20 minute sessions during the day when my barrels get warm, so it will be interesting to see how bored they get Sorry I don't have a trap, maybe I insist they all have a couple of lessons at a shooting school first Side issue - wasn't there a national pigeon day a few years ago, I think first Saturday in February, was it a one off? or does it still happen? WF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 As for his other two mates, I have no idea on their experience or even if they own shotguns. Even if they don't, then there is nothing wrong or illegal for them using my gun supervised, that's what I was planning. Be very careful on that point White Fox, without their own licences they can only use the land owner's guns under his direct supervision. This is a topic that has come up several times before and has been clarified by BASC on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white fox Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Ah right - I didn't know that one, I have to say I am guilty of not reading every thread on this forum This new info adds another factor into the equation, end of the day it might not be worth the bother, will have to see on Saturday Thanks for the info WF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 As for his other two mates, I have no idea on their experience or even if they own shotguns. Even if they don't, then there is nothing wrong or illegal for them using my gun supervised, that's what I was planning. :thumbs: Be very careful on that point White Fox, without their own licences they can only use the land owner's guns under his direct supervision. This is a topic that has come up several times before and has been clarified by BASC on this forum. news to me as well ,so if i read this correctly Ern , only the land owners gun may be used by a non licenced person,and only under direct supervision of land owner ?? dont wish to sound a dummy ern just trying to find out ,as my friend back in bristol has offered to take my 2 sons out shooting ,dont wish them to start on the wrong side of the law. thanks Martin p.s sounds like you might want to deep six the idea White fox :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 only the land owners gun may be used by a non licenced person,and only under direct supervision of land owner ?? dont wish to sound a dummy ern just trying to find out ,as my friend back in bristol has offered to take my 2 sons out shooting ,dont wish them to start on the wrong side of the law. :blink: Martin that is exactly how the law is at the moment due to hasty introduction in the first place. I took my grandson on land that I had permission and let him use my .410 under my supervision. I then read in Sporting Gun about the way the law had been drafted and it actually made it illegal unless I owned the land to take a non-licence holder with me, permission or not. I queried it with BASC and they confirmed that until the law is changed, I was committing an offence. It is OK for non-licence holders to be let loose at a registered clay ground though. :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrie0 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 And here http://www.basc.org.uk/content/lendingashotgun Lending A Shotgun Home > Departments > Firearms Department > Lending A Shotgun Not a lot of people know that…… (but they should !) Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act of 1968 states: " A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence." Section 11(6) states: " A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate , use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief Officer of police for the area in which that place is situated." So…… What does all this mean to me as a game or rough shooter? It means NO, you CAN’T just lend your shotgun to someone who hasn’t got a certificate - UNLESS you are the OCCUPIER of private land, ON that land, WITH that person, or you’re at a clay pigeon layout which has been granted that permission by the Chief Constable. If you let someone without a certificate use your shotgun in other circumstances, it is likely that you are committing a criminal offence, and you run the risk of losing your certificate and being fined, or worse. Many people believe that if they’ve got permission to shoot over land, they can take someone without a certificate onto that land and let them shoot their shotgun. This is NOT the case. Please, when you are considering lending a shotgun to anyone who doesn’t have a certificate, think of this, and if you have ANY doubt contact the BASC Firearms Department on 01244 573 010. We can help and advise. Better to be safe than sorry :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squintshot Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 What happens if you go stalking on an estate more often thatn not your out with a member of the owners staff not the owner himself, and I wouldn't be surprised if the rifles were in the head stalkers name not the owner!! Just a thought. Squint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Thanks Ern ,Barrieo, i must admit, i dont know the law as it stands now , i took my boys to a clay shooting club a few years back,when i was home. I never even thought to inquire ,as one of the owners took us around with his guns ,i guess clay shooting is all they will do for the time being. thanks again guys. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 I've been reading some of the posts on here about changing laws and stuff and im confused. I always thought that if someone with a licence let you use their gun supervised with the land owners permission, it was legal... But from what i've read thats not anymore... Is it? :thumbs: Are there anymore annoying laws like this? It seems like a lot of effort/money to start shooting now!! Jess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Jess, i guess you and both my sons have only one choice, compliance with the law and get your licence ,then you can shoot all you want . :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Hmm... the only problem i see with that idea is that i've never shot anything... ever!! If im really bad at it, or hate it, that would be a very big waste of money which i could spend on University books and alcohol!!! :blink: Oh, and how did my post end up on this thread?!?! :thumbs: Was wondering where it had got to!!lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Jess the best thing to do is get someone to take you along to a friendly clay shoot then you will be given advice and a bit of tuition and it will be legal. You will soon see if you are going to like it and then you can decide whether to get a licence or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Hmm... the only problem i see with that idea is that i've never shot anything... ever!! If im really bad at it, or hate it, that would be a very big waste of money which i could spend on University books and alcohol!!! Oh, and how did my post end up on this thread?!?! :blink: Was wondering where it had got to!!lol Take any offer to go clay shooting Jess ,as ern says you'l see real fast that its a blast <-- sorry on the pun . as ive prior posted ,ive taught a lot of woman to shoot at our grounds and for the most part they love it ,the right gun ,a sport bra with a little padding to start and off you go ,id love to teach you myself :*) :*) but as the bus dont come this far,i'll take a rain check ,im sure there are more than one willing person here that would,good luck , and i hope you have fun :thumbs: . Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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