Can someone hold my rifle legally

[Hunter2]

Out the other night on one of my permissions and was getting ready, I normal inform the hertfordshire control centre for the police that I am going to out and on what land vehicle reg etc etc

 

I normally call before I get to the permission, this evening I didn’t and was getting ready to call once I was sorted…camo gear on ….rifle, lamp etc.

 

Who should turn up… yep you guessed it… the boys in blue.

 

Well not a problem…. here is my original Sgc and Fac and wait…. I will just get my permission letter,which was in the car with my other gear.

 

Wait for it….have you called and let us know you are here?…no not yet as I was about to explained that I normally do call and let them know when, where and for how long and what time would I be finished etc and would you call back when I finish which I do.

 

Two of Hertfordshire finest, one turns to the other and says we got a problem

 

The sgc and fac are photocopies! to my reply I wish they would train you guys….they are indeed the originals as if they were copies they would say “FRAUD†at the bottom.

 

Anyway after a little chat one of them pipes up and says that he used to be I think in the reserves and can he have a look at my rifle ( I had taken the cz hmr ) so I said sure you can.

Now I took it from the gun slip (No Bolt In) and gave it to the officer, hes looking at it and wow this takes me back etc etc,

A bit of a conversation on noise and what`s it like with the moderator on it etc etc.

 

 

Question

 

It wasn’t until they went, that I thought hang on a minute was that legal to let someone (the officer) hold my rifle?

 

I am sure that it is, and the fact that I am on private land to which I have permission to be.

 

Long winded post I know, but give you guys the full story.

[codling99]

as far as im aware its legal to let someone hold and shoot your rifle on your permission as long as you have fac and permission and that.

[steve_b_wales]

Seconded.

[jasons gold]

as far as im aware its legal to let someone hold and shoot your rifle on your permission as long as you have fac and permission and that.

 

As far as i am aware it's only legal when it's the land owners weapon ,and that it's used in his presence

[henry d]

As long as he showed his warrant card, thereby proving he is a copper, then all is hunky dunky doo doo

[mossy835]

As far as i am aware it's only legal when it's the land owners weapon ,and that it's used in his presence

 

 

[Dirty Harry]

If the police are on duty then there is no problem. If they are off duty providing they are acting as a police officer then again there is no problem.

 

Harry

[Salop Matt]

So what actually triggered them to come out even before you started shooting ?

[bignoel]

so a on duty officer with a warrant card is as good as a fac cert ? odd heh

[tulkyuk]

so a on duty officer with a warrant card is as good as a fac cert ? odd heh

 

How do you come to this conclusion Noel

The bolt was not in, The officer did not shoot the rifle and he didn't take it away either.

[winchester]

as far as im aware its legal to let someone hold and shoot your rifle on your permission as long as you have fac and permission and that.

WRONG they threw this one in at my hearing ist not legal for some on to shoot your gun

Edited November 14, 2008 by winchester

[A Sick Old Man]

This point has been well aired before, I called the BASC Legal department and asked there opinion.

 

They say that as long as your permission states that you shoot on the land with another,

 

That person is over 17yrs,

 

Then there is no problem so long as that person is always under your direct supervision, that is to say you do not both have a .22. Or he is found in a different field to you with a weapon blah blah blah.

 

This has never been tested in court as yet, but BASC are of the opinion its a non starter so its unlikly to ever be tested.

[palombier]

A Police officer is a Crown Servant and therefore can handle/possess the weapon by virtue of the exemption to hold a FAC written into the Firearms Act 1968 S.54.

 

Regards

 

P

[alexm]

This point has been well aired before, I called the BASC Legal department and asked there opinion.

 

They say that as long as your permission states that you shoot on the land with another,

 

That person is over 17yrs,

 

Then there is no problem so long as that person is always under your direct supervision, that is to say you do not both have a .22. Or he is found in a different field to you with a weapon blah blah blah.

 

This has never been tested in court as yet, but BASC are of the opinion its a non starter so its unlikly to ever be tested.

Agreed, this is the old 'Estate Rifle' concept.

 

From the Home Office Guidance to Police:

 

Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It

should be noted that this gives slightly more

flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than

is permissible with the use of a shot gun

as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the

borrowed rifle can also be used in the

presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, the occupier and/or their servant

must hold a firearm certificate in respect of

the firearm being used, and the borrower,

who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their

servant), must comply with the conditions

of the certificate. These may include a

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,

territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the

1968 Act defines "premises" as including any

land. The effect of the provision is to allow

a person visiting a private estate to borrow

and use a rifle without a certificate. The

exemption does not extend to persons under

the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

There is no notification required on the

loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically

identified as such on a "keeper's" or

"landowner's" firearm certificate. The term

"in the presence of" is not defined in law

but is generally interpreted as being within

sight and earshot.

 

It is widely agreed (amongst BASC and other organisations) that 'Occupier' can be interpreted as the holder of the shooting rights/permission and does not necessarily have to be the owner. This is the grey area that 'A Sick Old Man' was talking about above.

Edited November 14, 2008 by alexm

[codling99]

This point has been well aired before, I called the BASC Legal department and asked there opinion.

 

They say that as long as your permission states that you shoot on the land with another,

 

That person is over 17yrs,

 

Then there is no problem so long as that person is always under your direct supervision, that is to say you do not both have a .22. Or he is found in a different field to you with a weapon blah blah blah.

 

This has never been tested in court as yet, but BASC are of the opinion its a non starter so its unlikly to ever be tested.

 

 

[Hunter2]

Thank you guys for the posts,

 

Alexm thank you, thats what i was looking for,i knew in my mind i had read this before.

 

ATB

 

Derek

[al4x]

couple of things to add, next time if there is one then show them some other ID or tell them to check the vehicle reg number it should be on your record that you hold a SGC and firearms ticket.

 

As for telling them you're going out you can do but you're under no obligation to. I'm not sure thay have the manpower or the ability to put the 2 and 2 together so its likely to make little difference.

[Salop Matt]

Dereck you still ahvent said why the police came out to you in the first instance ?

[Mungler]

Dereck you still ahvent said why the police came out to you in the first instance ?

 

He was cautioned for reckless spelling

[harv]

He was cautioned for reckless spelling

EXSELLENT

[MM]

he can hold it, as long as he aint dressed as a chicken, eating a pizza, and dancing to waltz tunes all at the same time. (and not on a friday.)

 

 

he is a copper. if he told you to **** in your hands and clap it too, you would do it. they might not all have great common sense, but you do as your told, or you end up in court.

[Highlander]

Two things I don't understand...

a) 'have you called and let us know you are here?'…that's NOT a legal requirement and most of the time they aren't really interested even if you do so why ask, why turn up out of the blue in the first place? Did you ask?

'The sgc and fac are photocopies! to my reply I wish they would train you guys….they are indeed the originals as if they were copies they would say “FRAUD†at the bottom'. How's that work then??? You copy your certs and what write FRAUD across them? The originals are little better than copies anyway. In fact I think they are

[deershooter]

If I had to phone the nick every time I went shooting the bloody phone bill would be huge and they would get ****** off with me

I never tell them its none of their busness

 

Deershooter

Edited November 14, 2008 by deershooter

[mossy835]

why tell them when you go out shooting, i never have,and a photo copy would not say fraud on them.

[mossy835]

If I had to phone the nick every time I went shooting the bloody phone bill would be huge and they would get ****** off with me

I never tell them its none of their busness

 

Deershooter

 

 

on that one