Billy. Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 What about air temperature, air/barometer pressure and shooting up or down hill too? Could these be contributing factors as well? All valid. Altitude also. I also agree with the post on bullet stability. Don't forget the bullet is spinning at 185,000 rpm. Imagine what a micron of a chip on the bullet or a bubble in the polymer would do to that when it slows to slower than the speed of sound?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Cool, you've got quite a collection there. Nearly beating me! What guns have you got? Anything special? What ammo do you find works best in them? I used to shoot a .17 air rifle, they're the best calibre for under 12ft-lbs I recon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I imagine the best way to work this is to take someone, like your self, to a place you know fairly well and in FIELD conditions with variable wind, swirling from bushes etc. heat from open spaces, back/lateral drift from hedges or woods and ask them to shoot 10/10 on an inanimate target with their rifle combo(.17) at 300 yds.............ish. Quoting other calibres etc will not do as ther is also the BC of any given bullet, rifle twist etc etc. too many variables never mind the human variable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) I think you will find you have failed to include another vital criteria. A bullets BC, a little .17grain bullets BC is very low, and not good enough for accuarte shooting at 300 yards. other than wind drift, is there any reason BC will affect a bullets accuracy? All valid. Altitude also. I also agree with the post on bullet stability. Don't forget the bullet is spinning at 185,000 rpm. Imagine what a micron of a chip on the bullet or a bubble in the polymer would do to that when it slows to slower than the speed of sound?! 17 drops to subsonic at ~275 yds - I know this affects accuracy, but not sure it is related to the spin? Cool, you've got quite a collection there. Nearly beating me! What guns have you got? Anything special? What ammo do you find works best in them? I used to shoot a .17 air rifle, they're the best calibre for under 12ft-lbs I recon. 243 is a sako 75 S/S (picture of it in Sporting Pictures forum at the moment, next to a dead muntjac. Currently use 58gr Norma BTs for foxes, I find these to be sub MOA (at 100m ). For Deer I'm actually looking for the best round at the moment. Had some 100gr Federal soft points but they were atrocious. Now have a box of 95gr winchester silvertips, but have not tried them yet. I'm not too fussed about the heavier bullets at the moment because I have a sako 85 finnlight on order at the moment in 308, and when that comes the 243 will be strictly for foxes. My 17 is a ruger 77/17 heavy barrel laminated stock with a trigger kit. I use the remingtons in it because they are gold - and I found them identical to the hornadys on the range. 22 is a modified 10/22 with a green mountain heavy barrel and some other bits. I've always used winchester subs, never actually tried others because they have been satisfactory. Anyway, I think this is getting a bit off topic, so to rectify that, I think my longest 17 shot was about 160 paces, on a hare. The guy I bought it off claimed to have taken a rabbit with it at 316m PS my first 17 air rifle cost I think $15 from a flea market in Alabama. You had to aim below and to the right if you wanted to hit anything. Edited March 2, 2009 by wannabefisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snare1 Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Hi all I`ve read all your stories about distance the truth is the rifle is as good as the shooter. I shoot rabbits up to 150yds with my .22lr.I have a range finder and the drops on a list taped to my rifle but. I do the same with the .17HMR I shoot rabbits out to 200 yds, the reason I don`t shoot further than this with it is because the factory rounds vary slightly in velocity and the weight of the round makes bucking the wind very difficult and when shooting live prey you must ensure clean kills as much as is possible, having said that on one exceptionaly calm clear day i shot a group of ten at three hundred yards in an eight inch target all rounds hit the target but the accuracy wasn`t sufficient to shoot rabbits with any whiff of a breeze would have sent it off by miles.I`ve also attempted 1000 yds with my .22-250 and the same applies to this calibre as well only it`s quiet stable out to 500 allowing for drop after which wind becomes more problematic. 300 yds with the .17 isn`t impossible just irrisponsible. good shooting all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 other than wind drift, is there any reason BC will affect a bullets accuracy? You tell me, does the little .17 round @ 300yds - ish point flat or towards the direction of the bullet drop. If it is flat, which I doubt, then there are all sorts of wind/air forces acting on it that are not there during the first 1/3 rd of flight. Is the bullet boat tail or is it flat, what radius is the ogive etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snare1 Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 You tell me, does the little .17 round @ 300yds - ish point flat or towards the direction of the bullet drop. If it is flat, which I doubt, then there are all sorts of wind/air forces acting on it that are not there during the first 1/3 rd of flight. Is the bullet boat tail or is it flat, what radius is the ogive etc. etc. exactly right thats why i said it`s irrisponsible to shoot live prey at these distances, the day I but ten into an eight inch cirle was an exceptianaly still and bright day it was 10 am no heat shimmer no dampness nothing to alter the flight only gravity bullet weight and velocity all which vary to some degree in factory roundsand it still wasn`t accurate enough for me personally to shoot rabbits at that range on a standard english weather type day you would have to 100% accurate and 100% lucky as well, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 You tell me, does the little .17 round @ 300yds - ish point flat or towards the direction of the bullet drop. If it is flat, which I doubt, then there are all sorts of wind/air forces acting on it that are not there during the first 1/3 rd of flight. Is the bullet boat tail or is it flat, what radius is the ogive etc. etc. how would there be forces acting on it in the second half of flight that werent in the first? Granted they will probably have more effect due to the slowing of the bullet, but they will have been there all along. I know the bullet is a boat tail, what is it going to tell us if I find out the ogive radius? Sounds like someone is trying to blind with science? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richie223 Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 MATT LOOK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.EVERYONE HAS GONE MENTAL,LOL,AAAAAAAAH,GREAT READING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badshot Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Awesome reading nothing like a good "discussion" to get the blood flowing. 150yds on rabbit btw don't think i would trust myself not to wobble beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 other than wind drift, is there any reason BC will affect a bullets accuracy?17 drops to subsonic at ~275 yds - I know this affects accuracy, but not sure it is related to the spin? PS my first 17 air rifle cost I think $15 from a flea market in Alabama. You had to aim below and to the right if you wanted to hit anything. You spent countless breaths earlier, saying wind is the only effect on accuracy, now you change your mind! What make and model was this .17 airgun of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 how would there be forces acting on it in the second half of flight that werent in the first?exactly as I said, the bullet will be deflected by many different wind shears due to topography and obstructions along the flightpath Granted they will probably have more effect due to the slowing of the bullet, but they will have been there all along. I know the bullet is a boat tail, what is it going to tell us if I find out the ogive radius? Giving the totally bizarre radius of twice the norm then the bullets BC will be different.........won`t it ?? and therefore it will act differently due to all the pre engaging time/distance before touching the lands and also the effect that wind and the twist ratio has on differing BC/weights ? Sounds like someone is trying to blind with science? You started it !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munst Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 agreed, but one of those two factors, gravity, is constant (or at least constant enough for us not to worry about it here) and the other, wind, is occasionally not present, which allows us to discount them both when talking about the inherent accuracy of a gun Yes gravity is constant as you say, but its effect isn't due to the slowing of the projectile. Look at the trajectory graph, the drop isn't fixed its exponential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 You spent countless breaths earlier, saying wind is the only effect on accuracy, now you change your mind! What make and model was this .17 airgun of yours? did I? Find the quote where I said that then... sorry if I am misinterpreting your tone, but it sounds like you don't believe I had this gun - why would I lie about that? Yes gravity is constant as you say, but its effect isn't due to the slowing of the projectile. Look at the trajectory graph, the drop isn't fixed its exponential. I've never said any different, read the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 exactly as I said, the bullet will be deflected by many different wind shears due to topography and obstructions along the flightpath Giving the totally bizarre radius of twice the norm then the bullets BC will be different.........won`t it ?? and therefore it will act differently due to all the pre engaging time/distance before touching the lands and also the effect that wind and the twist ratio has on differing BC/weights but the bullet will be effected by differing wind shears in the first part of the flight too, nothing special about the second. Besides, this is totally irrelevant to what I have said my assumptions are earlier in the thread. I'll say it once more so that it is clear, then that is the end of it; I know that wind has an effect on bullets flight paths, and I am fully aware of how that relationship changes in relationship to the bullets speed. I am also aware that there may be different wind conditions along the route of the bullet. However, I did say earlier, repeatedly, that there is in fact the not very rare possibility of a windless day, and these are the conditions I have been discussing. Regarding your second paragraph, it just makes me sigh. As I am sure you do actually know but are just trolling, these factors all have an "effect" on the POI, however what affects the accuracy is how consistent these forces are, not whether they exist. Good night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Im just waiting for my FAC to come through now i have applied for a .17HMR. I would like to know what your longest kills with a .17HMR are ? Cheers Can't help but feel that this thread lost it's point. It started as a request for distance shots (no critera for luck/flukes etc) and has got bogged down in a mess of tecnical data. I see this as an oportunity for members to report good results with long shots using a 17 hmr and maybe others pointing out the advantages of bigger and more powerfull rounds for distance work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPARKIE Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 quote I think it was dead eye ive at bisley a couple of years back shooting his at 200 yards and although it was a fairly calm day I doubt that the group was much tighter that 12". i was also shooting 200yards at bisley with my .17hmr and .22wmr and there results were as follows .17hmr zerod at 100yards shoots !/2inch hole 3 bullets most days of the week.at 200yards was grouping about 8inch that was shot with 17remmingtons righthand cross wind. aimed 4 milldots down and 2 to the left and was manageing to hit the bull area without rezeroing the gun but like said group was around 8 inch.....scope 6x24x50 target scope .22wmr zerod at 100yrds shoots 1 inch groups. at 200yards was grouping about 10 inch was shot with cci 36grain stingers was 2 milsdots left 4.5 down 3.5x10x50 scope what the groups would be like at 300yards i dunno bet id run out of milldots on the scopes and the group would be massive not suitable calibers for shooting over 150 yards in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sipe-ist Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Wannabe fisher, Get real!! You will be trying to say that the 'shot string' has no effect when shotgun shooting next!! Don't you know anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plinker Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 i have shot 1/2 groups at 100 on paper and had other days when it just drove me nuts ,sold the first 17 and swore they were ****,but when you go out rabbiting and head shoot everything at 150 or less with no holdover/under you realise where they really shine, they are the bis for shootong rabbits ,get it zeroed and than shoot bunnies ,it is no good for anything else (paper) but it is also the undisputed king of bunny bashing (imo).got a 15 " barrel on mine and its such a handy little thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 sorry if I am misinterpreting your tone, but it sounds like you don't believe I had this gun - why would I lie about that? It was just a simple question, I don't know any reason why you would want to lie about it, but for me, I am intrigued as I am unaware of any airgun being produced in .17 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 It was just a simple question, I don't know any reason why you would want to lie about it, but for me, I am intrigued as I am unaware of any airgun being produced in .17 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 quoteI think it was dead eye ive at bisley a couple of years back shooting his at 200 yards and although it was a fairly calm day I doubt that the group was much tighter that 12". i was also shooting 200yards at bisley with my .17hmr and .22wmr and there results were as follows .17hmr zerod at 100yards shoots !/2inch hole 3 bullets most days of the week.at 200yards was grouping about 8inch that was shot with 17remmingtons righthand cross wind. aimed 4 milldots down and 2 to the left and was manageing to hit the bull area without rezeroing the gun but like said group was around 8 inch.....scope 6x24x50 target scope .22wmr zerod at 100yrds shoots 1 inch groups. at 200yards was grouping about 10 inch was shot with cci 36grain stingers was 2 milsdots left 4.5 down 3.5x10x50 scope what the groups would be like at 300yards i dunno bet id run out of milldots on the scopes and the group would be massive not suitable calibers for shooting over 150 yards in my opinion Sorry Sparkie, Perhaps it was you not Ive, But I rest my case m'lud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Still no answer I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Just out of interest I set a can up at the farm last night on a field thats about 270 yards with my 14X scope I could not really see it let alone take aim, I also set one at 150 and thats still a very long way! having that I can get within 100 most of the time I have to wonder just why you would want to point a 17 HMR at anything 300 yards away There are doubtless some cracking shots about and I do appreciate a good marksman if it means a nice clean kill, However with Rifle ownership comes responsibility and we should not forget that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 The 200 yards groups quoted on here can't be right surely? Are we not led to believe that the .17hmr can knock rabbits down all day long at 200 yards, how can it do that if it is grouping into 8"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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