Dave-G Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 While at work last night I got a call from my area FEO regarding land checks and a variation to my first C/F. He wants me to call him this afternoon - with the maps of the permissions I want cleared for 17REM in front of me so he can tell me which ones he considers qualify. He's indicated that although I have only applied for 17REM, Leic's policy is that any land has to meet the criteria required for all Centre fire calibres, and any unbroken land mass has to meet a ball park 200 acres - but about 190 would probably be agreed. He is a non shooter and has apparently already carried out the checks. I think this might be their rule for a first time shooter - rather than someone who has been shooting LR and HMR for three years and used about 5000 rounds of ammunition. He cites a scenario that if the force allows an (X) acre basin with excellent backstops, someone else could complain: so-and-so got (X) acres - why cant I? I can't help feeling this is over restrictive and all encompassing. A more experienced FEO had indicated Leic’s force would like a much less obstructive "well over 60 acres if there are safe shoot areas" I would not have applied for C/f if I had been aware that 200 acres is a starting point for Leicestershire, particularly considering closed conditions will not be de-restricted for at least three years. I have a couple of local 100 + acre land mass places I need to use it on and one of 86 acres + two that exceed 200 acres. All of them have undulating land swells or hills to shoot the very frangible bullet into from another hill. Most of them have “no shoot†areas within them that I am aware of - and I frequently shoot on them with a visiting open .223 ticket holder who has advised me well. I have larger permissions but they are rarely used and 300 miles away in Cornwall, 38 permissions in total, ranging from 4 to 600 acres. Is it worth asking for another check by a more senior FEO to try and work out a less restrictive condition even though it would probably mark my card so to speak? It's a shame it has got this far and taken two months before this bombshell dropped. At the moment I'm thinking it's just not worth proceeding with Centre fire under these barely useable conditions for pigeon and crow that I cannot get into humane killing range with a rimfire in some wide open fields. The added 17REM range would enable more selective shot directions but I might just as well pack in my rimfires too if I disagree with my area FEO. This is posted on other forum to try and get a very broad opinion before lunch time today, and I may refer to this thread in any discussions that might indicate other force areas are less restrictive, so please keep any comments or replies as factual as possible. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULT Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 the main farm i shoot on is 180 acres this is cleared up to 243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretmanabu Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 This sounds very restrictive. If you had a 50 acre patch of land but had a serious fox problem, what would the solution be then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 .........and here I have never had to get any land cleared ever! .22/.222/6.5 Get BASC onto it ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 This sounds rather ridiculous to be honest. What is the landscape like? Acreage shouldn't have anything to do with it. I have one area of 130 acres of virtually flat land with the M5 running past one side cleared up to .223 on the proviso I use a high seat/elevated shooting position and stick to certain angles. It was cleared for rimfire however I met with my FEO with printouts from google earth and took him through some firing angles etc and talked him round. He was pleased because it saved him getting his wellies muddy. Also, for extra leverage, Avon & Somerset will not put fox on .22lr or .17HMR therefore in order to deal with the fox problem on this area they either had to allow me to use .223 or put fox on my HMR. They chose the former. If your police force won't put fox on anything but centrefire they are effectively saying that all farms below 200 acres can't control their foxes. I would recommend you ask to meet the FEO again either on the land in question, or over a few google printouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realtreedave Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 im over the border in staffordshire and while i dont use centre fire the land i shoot across[about 180 acres]has been cleared for 22 centre fire by staffs police.i also know several lads with centre fires that shoot on cleared land of far less acerage.try discussing use of highseats etc,but dont chuck the towel in theres always a way forward.good luck mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 If you can show good reason to own the .17Rem, and show safe shooting practice, aware of footpaths etc then your FEO should have no issues with allowing you the centrefire. As HD said, have a word with BASC. However, in your post above you mentioned your use being for long range pigeons and rabbits? That could be a stumbling block if that is your 'good reason'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Thanks for the input chaps - I've got out of bed because I can't sleep on this and may have thought of why he might be being so restrictive. I have always been present on every other clearance I have requested - with him and two other FEO's. During the walk abouts we discuss shoot and no shoot areas. After unsuccesfully trying to contact me in "normal" peoples working hours he did the checks alone, without me detailing where I propose to shoot - and where not. I'm wondering if in my absence, he interpreted the entire property boundary maps as the areas I wish to shoot in - but there are several small and detached sections I don't propose to shoot with C/F - but do with my RF and FAC air. I show the entire boundary because I think cleared land is 'attached to a shooters certificate. He may have assumed I've asked him to clear all areas and feels I'm showing lack of judgement. If thats the case it's hardly surprising he wants to let me loose on my own initive in smaller areas. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I think you have all your answers here and eslewhere Dave, but it is the layout of the land not the size that is important. The golf course I shoot is large but as flat as a pancake, so great care has to be taken. Compare that to the 28 acres I also have that would suitable for my 6.5 if I wanted to shoot it there. Don't let women tell you otherwise, size isn't important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Cheers Stuart - we have a 40 acre golf course in Cornwall cleared for .223 - but it backs onto another 200 acre permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubix Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 "He's indicated that although I have only applied for 17REM, Leic's policy is that any land has to meet the criteria required for all Centre fire calibres, and any unbroken land mass has to meet a ball park 200 acres - but about 190 would probably be agreed. He is a non shooter and has apparently already carried out the checks. I think this might be their rule for a first time shooter - rather than someone who has been shooting LR and HMR for three years and used about 5000 rounds of ammunition." He's talking rubbish, or at least that's an unjustifibale policy - I have one patch of 12 acres cleared for 143. The nature of the land determines clearance not the size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I have my .17 clear on a permission of 13 Acres, yep thats right 13, and the .223 on one of 80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scout Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I have 52 acres cleared upto .243 I asked a similar question to my FEO recently when accompanying her on a land check and she said that Devon & Cornwall check the land and then make a recommendation for the maximum allowable calibre irrespective of what you have asked for, this stops then having to do repeat land checks if the shooter changes or you ask for a variation. Shame they are messing you around so much as it leaves a bitter taste, I woudl contact Basc and ask their advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I still think there is a conspiracy to stop shooting by making the rules harder and harder . I shoot over about 3000 acres in all ,made up from a number of smaller farms dotted about all over the place . I have single fields to shoot over that are no more than 20 or 30 acres and a fir plantation no bigger than 10 acres . I will and have shot deer on all this land when necessary . On small parcels of land the safest way to shoot deer (and the most producctive is from high seats ) i have had an open ticket for more years than i would like to remember and have always paid special attention to safety ,an experianced stalker can safely shoot deer on very small pieces of land without danger to anybody or property . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Did not go well at all. It's not gone in a way that I can justify getting the calibre when I consider that I can't use it where it’s wanted most for Leicestershire's minimum closed term of three years. I have fox control “duties†at two farms but cannot get rimfire agreed for it – the C/F route was always due to this – so I intended to maximise its potential to include small long range vermin which is within the Home Office guidelines. I don’t think it’s appropriate to discuss specific details but I have 6 out of 24 local farms that I feel qualify for the very frangible 17REM which runs out of residual energy in shorter distances than most other Centre Fire calibres. I have advised the FEO that I wish to put the application on hold pending a review of the decision by the firearms licensing manager. I now feel my card is marked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Have you tried to get them to agree to meet you on the land, or to go through the details on a map or aerial photo? Until you can make a case and get the specifics about how you intend to use the rifle over to them I can't see how they will change their mind. Give them a chance to be reasonable. If they refuse this then BASC. What have you got to lose? Also, any chance of a letter from the landowner stating the need for pest control hinting at the financial losses he will incur as a result of their decision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I've got .223 on a smallholding of less than 15-20 acres. If theres a problem that requires such calibre (in my case Fox Predation), and the lie of the land is good enough - I see no problem and neither did my FEO... His word's "I don't like people shooting at foxes with Rimfires" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I really feel for you in this situation. They're being a little unreasonable and there must be a way to change their minds? I got my 6.5x55 cleared on 170 flat acres with a motorway at one end. The use of a high seat is essential but as long as I fire away from the road and not at silly angles it is fine. The calibre you've picked is about as safe as you could ask for, and you need it for Fox control if you can't use your rimfire. Give them **** mate, they don't make the rules even if they want to. I'd fire my 6.5 on an acre if it had a really good backstop. Land size has **** all to do with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 It doe's seem a load of old tosh when i or any body with an open ticket could shoot on there if we deemed it safe . May be its the way to go at the moment ,do you know any body with an open ticket who can help you out .? Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I've got .223 on a smallholding of less than 15-20 acres. If theres a problem that requires such calibre (in my case Fox Predation), and the lie of the land is good enough - I see no problem and neither did my FEO... His word's "I don't like people shooting at foxes with Rimfires" he ought to be more worried about people shooting them with shotguns, I'd place money on more being injured with 6's than the average rimfire. If its the same FEO as mine he doesn't shoot anyway so sometimes you do wonder what they base their opinion on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 The range I shoot on is cleared ap to 5000ish ft-lbs and that bit of land is only 200 yards square at the most. I know it has a tested backstop, but still it puts the 200 acre rule to shame. Put another way 200 acres would be extremely dangerous if the land was flat and you didn't get up in the air to provide a backstop! Area limits are just silly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 His word's "I don't like people shooting at foxes with Rimfires" This isnt the sort of thing Firearms enquiry officers should be saying. .22WMR is ideal for foxing and i even have one approved for this very use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 This isnt the sort of thing Firearms enquiry officers should be saying. .22WMR is ideal for foxing and i even have one approved for this very use herts also allow rimfires for foxes so not sure why if they don't agree with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the opinions chaps. As things stand at the moment I am waiting to speak with the Licensing Manager as I feel about ready to jack it in. As far as I'm concerned a bridge has been blown and it's going to take a bit of repair work, possibly on both sides as I can be quite blunt sometimes due to lack of tact. The rifle someone kindly reserved for me on the BBS for two months has gone back on sale with my blessing. Edited March 25, 2009 by Dave-G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubix Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 No. It has to based on evidence and facts, not a personal dislike of you. Disregard that and don't act contrite. 200 acres to be safe? Ha - my 243 can kill at 9 miles - how many acres is that ? Mine are happy for me to shoot it on 12 acres. Tell them (if true) it has safe backstops and the animals to shoot - that's all that's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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