fullbore Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 I don't have DSC1, but I have meat hygiene ticket. I approached deer stalking from what seems now a rather unorthodox route: shadowing my father and the local keeper from the age of about 10, and simply qualifying by experience. Quite a lot of varied experience, in retrospect. DSC1 opens barriers that would probably have kept new entrants out of the game. But it is no substitute for experience and practical involvement. I have level 1 and 2 and the LANTRA hygene certificate for large and small game. I also had many years of stalking and shooting experience prior to taking the DSC, but I can see the way the world is going. CORGI for plumbers, licenses for fork trucks and cranes, I have had an HGV license for donkeys, but in a couple of years some student will earn big money telling me how I should be doing it. I have 2 options, do the CPC course and carry on as before, or spit the dummy out and lose the right to be able to drive. The parrallel with the DSC has already begun, firearms departments insisting on it, you cannot stalk on FC land without Level 1 and you cannot be a lease holder without Level 2. So feel free to grumble about taking paper qualifications, but it is the way of the modern world, and as yet there is no alternative to DSC, which as everyone agrees does not make anyone an expert stalker, but I think also everyone agrees better prepares the novice to begin stalking. I honestly feel that if you do not do them, you will not be able to stalk without them, in much the same way as I can no longer do domestic electrical work, even on my own house because I have not done part P. Hell I even remember a time when you didn't need a test to drive a car in this country, but now you do, it's the way of a changing world. Just my two pennorth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Oh for anyone able to travel to West Yorkshire, Paul Lane rifle club in Mirfield does an excellent 5 week course with test at the end by David Stretton at a much cheaper price than elsewhere, 150 quid if I remember correctly, and they have a brilliant pass rate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyCM Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 I did DSC 1 last year after about 4 years of stalking getting fox & deer conditions from the start without a problem. I also did a Lantra foxing/lamping course because I wanted to. My feo is not aware of these bits of paper because they have nothing to do with him - I hope it stays that way. DSC II, now that is expensive! Cheers Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 you're close fullbore but you can do electrical work on your own house and only have to be "competent" but if you do you do need Building control to sign it off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Oh for anyone able to travel to West Yorkshire, Paul Lane rifle club in Mirfield does an excellent 5 week course with test at the end by David Stretton at a much cheaper price than elsewhere, 150 quid if I remember correctly, and they have a brilliant pass rate I will second that I did mine there a couple of years ago, good people, and a good set up, a few failed the course, but not many and believe me the lads doing the course put a lot into it so its there for you if you want to take it in? KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 My next renewal is in 5 years, I want to apply for a .243/6.5x55 for fox/deer at that stage. I think I would benefit from the DSC1 as I don't have many contacts here who I can shadow/help with the stalking. I have experience with firearms since I was about 9yrs old and have kept this up but have never had the opertunity to be able to afford the cost of paying for a stalking holiday or weekend etc. I am a great believer that a lot of the skills gained through other forms of shooting can all be applied to deer stalking [safe weapons handling/carcas preparation(to a degree)/general principles of stalking (use of cover/wind etc)/Shooting accurately at distances up to 150yards], but I am also a believer that I learn better throguh hands on experience than from a book/disc/classroom, unfortunately though I do not know of anyone locally who I an gain that sort of experience from. My goal is that when in 15 years or so I retire from my current occupation, I would like to start stalking in some form of professional manner. I think that by then everything will have to have a piece of paper attached to it and so I might as well get it done now or in the next few years. My FEO did ask that if I went for the variation that I go down the DSC1 route...although I don't really get the legal argument when people can get a .243 for fox with no condition but as soon as deer are mentioned you have to have a condition put on [and safety is menat to be the only factor in placing conditions on a licence] - perhaps one for BASC to argue more about if it becomes a complete paper excercise. I do have to conceed that ethically someone who has passed their DSC1 may have a better understanding of hygeine etc than someone who is new to the whole thing, I, however, would still prefer to learn off an experienced respectful stalker who has been doing it for a living for years. My best way forward would be to get the manual and pay for the assessment when I am ready...I have found a friend also in the same boat, a pest controller, who as part of an expanding business is hoping to go for his deer stalking and is looking to do his DSC1. He cannot have the time off to do a course due to his busy work schedule but will study the manual... Anyway thats my 5 pence worth..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 you're close fullbore but you can do electrical work on your own house and only have to be "competent" but if you do you do need Building control to sign it off Not even close, NOBODY except a qualified part P sparky can work in a kitchen or bathroom at all! And anyone carrying out work on any electrical system becomes resposible for the state of the entire system, and a certificate must be issued (by part P etc) to certify as to the safety of the system integerity of the earths etc etc and the test equipment is a fortune too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 ..although I don't really get the legal argument when people can get a .243 for fox with no condition but as soon as deer are mentioned you have to have a condition put on [and safety is menat to be the only factor in placing conditions on a licence] - perhaps one for BASC to argue more about if it becomes a complete paper excercise. I do have to conceed that ethically someone who has passed their DSC1 may have a better understanding of hygeine etc than someone who is new to the whole thing, I, however, would still prefer to learn off an experienced respectful stalker who has been doing it for a living for years. I think they would also learn a great deal about deer, habitat, diseases, seasons and so on if they were new to the whole thing, also as safety is a big part of dsc1 they would learn that too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 I like Baldrick have never sat any course relating to shooting deer or to meat hygine or to shooting any other field game . I to learnt what i know from experianced mentors over the years and had many a clout over the head from an old keeper for shooting to long as he called it . I have no axe to grind over deer courses or any other courses for shooting ,but have not found it necessary to have to do these courses to become a proficent , humane , and safe shooter . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 I like Baldrick have never sat any course relating to shooting deer or to meat hygine or to shooting any other field game . I to learnt what i know from experianced mentors over the years and had many a clout over the head from an old keeper for shooting to long as he called it . I have no axe to grind over deer courses or any other courses for shooting ,but have not found it necessary to have to do these courses to become a proficent , humane , and safe shooter . Harnser . Nor have I or indeed has any of my friends been made a more proficient, humane or safer shot, but that's not the point, the paper shows someone else you are qualified. As I said the FC will not allow you on their land, and I am sure there are others like that. I have had a HGV license for 30 years now, and the powers that be have decreed I must do 35 hours annual training to be able to continue driving. If I choose not to do the course because what are they going to teach me when I have done the job for 30 years, then I'll lose my licenseand livelyhood. But, if I am any good at the job and I have nothing to learn, the test will be a breeze so why not just do it? What's to fear. Times are changing, already the FLO are insisting on DSC1 for deer calibres, what next? Me, I'm all right, got the experience AND the paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Not even close, NOBODY except a qualified part P sparky can work in a kitchen or bathroom at all! And anyone carrying out work on any electrical system becomes resposible for the state of the entire system, and a certificate must be issued (by part P etc) to certify as to the safety of the system integerity of the earths etc etc and the test equipment is a fortune too yes they can, my builder has wired both my kitchen and bathroom and is fine to do so as long as Building control check it and sign it off, he's done it on his last 8 extensions, there is nothing to stop you doing so if you're competent but it has to have a building regs application put in, whereas a part p electrician can sign the work off and certify himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffolk shooter Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Times are changing, already the FLO are insisting on DSC1 for deer calibres, what next? No insistence from Mine for DSC1! and there are one or two others I know (some not even in the same county or under the same FEO) who are also not being required to undertake DSC1. There are however moves afoot within Scotland for this to apply to all persons, even those who have been Stalking day in day out for the best part of their lives 30-40+!!!! The big problem is the way in which individual County's FEO's are being told to approach it. Like all things in this country there is no consistency to the interpretation of the rules and regulations that we as Law abiding SGC and FAC holders have to follow to the letter. The whole issue of the backlog over SGC/FAC application/renewals being issued was supposedly becasue of the need to put on to one databse for the whole country. Now that sbeen done, has there been an improvement in the times Again this varies greatly county to county. SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 No insistence from Mine for DSC1! and there are one or two others I know (some not even in the same county or under the same FEO) who are also not being required to undertake DSC1. There are however moves afoot within Scotland for this to apply to all persons, even those who have been Stalking day in day out for the best part of their lives 30-40+!!!! I think it is merely a matter of time in this health and safety driven society before it will come in in all areas and apply to all, and then watch the cost sky rocket. Like I said I have held an HGV license for 30 years and will have to undertake cpc training to be allowed to continue, so why is shooting/stalking any different? There seem to be two schools of thought on the DSC, one, like me where you accept the inevitability of paper qualifications and just get on and do them, and the other, Luddite faction, with the "I've been stalking donkeys years, there's nowt you can teach me". Which, in my opinion is both conceioted and a dangerous attitude. A skilled man can always learn, even from an apprentice on his first day on the job, closed minds are a bad thing to have. If these people really have nothing else to learn, then what is wrong with doing the course? It should be a breeze to them. Like I said, it is largely a health and safety issue, FC have to show that they have taken all reasonable steps in ensuring only qualified people are let loose on their land with firearms, especially in Scotland with free access issues. And risk assesments etc are in place. The fc 's own Rangers have to take the DSC, so why shouldn't recreational stalkers. LIke I keep saying, most of the trades have had to undertake training and some form or other of licensing, I don't see why people allowed to wander the countryside with high velocity rifles shouldn't have to too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffolk shooter Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Fair to say that you are of the mind that no matter what gun, calibre, quarry then the person(s) doing the shooting must have attended and obtained a relevant qualification (Paper or otherwise) in that discipline. Similar to the rules/regs in holland? Like you I see no reason, why we as responsible shooters shouldn't attend mandatory Gun Safety courses, but believe that whilst anyone can read a book and learn and tick a multiple choice sheet, there is no substitute for Practical experience and thats where Mentoring is better than any course in any line of business/trade. No difference to the good old days of apprenticeships in the work place, where an apprentice learnt from the ground up, rather than as today, kids comeout of University/college with a bit of paper that tells them they are qualififed in a subject and yet have no conception of how things are done in the real world! So whilst DSC 1 (See my first post on this thread) has its place, it shouldn't be a mandatory requirement. You are after all only as good as the information/people you learn from If this was done in tandem with mentoring and at a greatly reduced price (you can do a years degree course on most subjects for the same value), then it would be worthwhile. The DSC2 goes that stage further, but still doesn't really teach you much except to do it the DMQ way, which whilst no expert, are we sure it is indeed the correct way and not just the PC way?!?!?!?! The three witnessed stalks go some way to being a leveller, but even so see the article my Christopher Borthen on the Good the bad and the ugly stalker and even someone of his calibre and experience can get it wrong, and get it right and be wrong and be lucky and get it right and wrong, so what hope is there for those who do not do it on a regular or professional basis? Sure basics need to be taught, but at that price, its ludicrous. SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 No difference to the good old days of apprenticeships in the work place, where an apprentice learnt from the ground up, rather than as today, kids comeout of University/college with a bit of paper that tells them they are qualififed in a subject and yet have no conception of how things are done in the real world! So whilst DSC 1 (See my first post on this thread) has its place, it shouldn't be a mandatory requirement. You are after all only as good as the information/people you learn from If this was done in tandem with mentoring and at a greatly reduced price (you can do a years degree course on most subjects for the same value), then it would be worthwhile. The DSC2 goes that stage further, but still doesn't really teach you much except to do it the DMQ way, which whilst no expert, are we sure it is indeed the correct way and not just the PC way?!?!?!?! The three witnessed stalks go some way to being a leveller, but even so see the article my Christopher Borthen on the Good the bad and the ugly stalker and even someone of his calibre and experience can get it wrong, and get it right and be wrong and be lucky and get it right and wrong, so what hope is there for those who do not do it on a regular or professional basis? Sure basics need to be taught, but at that price, its ludicrous. SS I totally agree, and while not everyone has access to shooters who are not only able but WILLING to pass on their knowledge, and we all know shooters are cagey people who play their cards close to their chest, then ,maybe the police mentoring system is a step in the right direction, putting together novices and experienced shooters. I also agree that the DMQ system has it's own failings, but as at the moment there is no alternative, so we have 3 options, either do it, ignore it and hope it will go away (can't see it) or start your own system of tests and exams. As you say multiple choice exams are not the best solution, but they at the moment are the best we have, and the old method of applying for fac getting it granted and then marching off with the rifle of your choice was to say the least, a bit lax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 perhaps in the interest of all, if the cost of sitting the DSC1 was reduced, so that all those who have the experience could get it at little cost that may help. those needing more study would obviously pay more for the study?? perhaps a bit simplistic but i dont blame folk who have been doing this well all their lives and then for the sake of a piece of paper have to fork out £150 or so to sit a test and have it registered..... they could cut down the course so that you could taylor fit it to suit you...if you are happy with gun safety and general deer info then you would only pay to study the meat hygeine pary and sit the test etc..... i am sure though that the powers that be will decide to keep the cost high for all, as already mentioned as decent, honest, law abiding folk we will have to pay [and they know it] whatever they want if we want to continue to take part in this occupation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 The cost issue comes up all the time It is a 3 to 4 day course, how much do you expect to pay? As an example, instructor led IT training is in the order of £1,000 to £1,200 for 5 days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 The cost issue comes up all the time It is a 3 to 4 day course, how much do you expect to pay? As an example, instructor led IT training is in the order of £1,000 to £1,200 for 5 days. As an example, instructor led IT training is in the order of £1,000 to £1,200 for 5 days. could you go on to make a living out of the IT training. doubt if you could out of dsc1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 This is the trouble with the Tin hat brigade as Fred Dibnah used to call the health and safety eejits. Basically they are people with no skill and no job making a living out of people that do. The cost of the HGV cpc will have to be borne by the individual also, I know for most stalking is a leisure activity so the extra cost is an unwelcome burden, but if you have the qualifications, you can then sell the venison to recoup the cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 There is no better way to learn a trade than on the job training for the practical application of using the skills that you are learning . I served a proper indentured apprentiship when i left school and most of my time i spent on the job learning my trade .I did at the latter stages of my apprentership spend time in college ,which was fun . My point is that i learnt my craft from very experianced mentors in the guise of grumpy old men who liked to chase the boy around and have a laugh at my expense . Yes i did finnish my apprentership with a city and guilds certificate to prove that i was a craftsmen but that was the only piece of paperwork that i recieved ,oh and a letter from the union stating that i was eligible to join the union as a craftsman . In my opinion this is the best way to teach somebody about field sports ,by the mentoring system . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 There is no better way to learn a trade than on the job training for the practical application of using the skills that you are learning . I served a proper indentured apprentiship when i left school and most of my time i spent on the job learning my trade .I did at the latter stages of my apprentership spend time in college ,which was fun . My point is that i learnt my craft from very experianced mentors in the guise of grumpy old men who liked to chase the boy around and have a laugh at my expense . Yes i did finnish my apprentership with a city and guilds certificate to prove that i was a craftsmen but that was the only piece of paperwork that i recieved ,oh and a letter from the union stating that i was eligible to join the union as a craftsman . In my opinion this is the best way to teach somebody about field sports ,by the mentoring system . Harnser . Like I keep saying, I totally agree with you, but in my experience, those involved with stalking, unless family or long time friends wouldn't give you the steam off their ****. It is obvious from the comments on this topic that many people are dissatisfied with DSC, so in the absence of a better system being available, does anyoneone fancy the idea of formulating and perhaps starting, a mentoring/apprenticeship? I wonder how much that would cost to get an individual to "skilled craftsman" level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignoel Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 when i applied a while back for my FAC i told my fao i was thinking on doing this he smearkt back at me and said if you think it will do you anygood do it .no mention of you will need it later on .noel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 nd just because he didn't tell you you would need it doesn't mean you won't. Already you cannot sell game to a game dealer without the relevant hygene certificates, things are changing all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 id do it if i was into stalking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignoel Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 was told to sell to gamedealer all i needed was license and the animals head and guts ? so many different answer's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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