Harnser Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 I would like to know the B.A.S.C. postion on this matter . Why are constabularys insisting on these conditions when they are not part of the application process for rifle ownership .? Why not mentoring for fox shooting with a centre fire rifle , or is this to come .? I think it is time that this was challenged in the crown courts and I think the B.A.S.C. are the people to do it . Perhaps David B.A.S.C. can enlighten us on the official B.A.S.C. postion . I think that this one needs sorting out soon . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 I totally agree. I can, and have shot deer without the need of being DSC1 'trained' I read somewhere that this idea came from the British Deer Society (BDS) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Here here. I have mentoring for stalking, but I have an open ticket to freely shoot pest species. Are they trying to say it is ok to misplace a shot on a fox, but not on a deer?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Yep.....it's about time this was confronted head on, & put to bed once & for all. BJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Here here. I have mentoring for stalking, but I have an open ticket to freely shoot pest species. Are they trying to say it is ok to misplace a shot on a fox, but not on a deer?! Shot placement is just a very small part of DSC1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Are they trying to say it is ok to misplace a shot on a fox, but not on a deer?! It has more to do with understanding seasons / identifying species / taking the correct animal etc etc than just shot placement. But I agree, 'they' shouldn't insist on it, and it shouldn't be compulsary. And before the usual suspects jump on the money making aspect, I doubt very much money at all is generated by DSC1/2 training, it costs about 1/3 or 1/4th of say IT training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Shot placement is just a very small part of DSC1. It has more to do with understanding seasons / identifying species / taking the correct animal etc etc than just shot placement. I understand that it is very important to identify species and seasons (I would need guidance) and I am willing to do my DSC 1 when I get free time to do so. It's just silly that people are requested to do it as part of their FAC. As I said above, I am entrusted with an open licence, but not that I will take care if out stalking, as I would ensure that I could correctly identify the species before contemplating taking the shot. It's as understandable as seeing a pair of eyes whilst out lamping and taking the time to identify if it's a fox, badger, cat or dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Some constabularies do insist on DSC 1 or mentoring as a condition for ‘deer caliber’ rifles, if you put deer stalking down as one of your reasons for wanting a 240 or above. If you want a rifle for 'fox only' they will tend to steer you towards the .22 CF calibers They can bounce you on application or variation if you do not have good reason, or of dodgy character, or are otherwise unsound - that is all- If they refuse you for one of these then it can be challenged in court. However, conditions on certificates cannot be challenged unless they are grossly ridiculous of course. The courts do not see the requirement of DSC 1 or mentoring for people wanting a deer caliber rifle for the first time as ridiculous. This can seem grossly unfair if you have been stalking with an ‘estate rifle’ for years, but remember the FLD have no idea how good or safe a person is or what level of experience a person has. To be honest, many land owners were asking for DSC 1 well before the police cottoned onto it a few years back, not least of all because land owners wanted to mitigate their liability under the Occupiers Liability Act for example. This is not going to change, and as we live in a more litigious society you can expect more landowners to do the same. Will this apply to fox and other pests? Who knows, maybe in the future it will, but as of now it certainly is not being mentioned within ACPO. One of the bigger issues frankly is the inconstancy if all the FLD’s had the same criteria we would all know where we stand, but as of yet this is not happening. As far as BASC’s positions goes it is this – we welcome voluntary training for those who wish to improve their skill or knowledge and would certainly say it is ‘essential’ for a novice. However we are, and have always been against compulsory testing / training. If you are having issues with your FLD about grant or renewal then please contact the BASC firearms team if you are a BASC member David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cushat Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Some constabularies do insist on DSC 1 or mentoring as a condition for ‘deer caliber’ rifles, if you put deer stalking down as one of your reasons for wanting a 240 or above. If you want a rifle for 'fox only' they will tend to steer you towards the .22 CF calibers They can bounce you on application or variation if you do not have good reason, or of dodgy character, or are otherwise unsound - that is all- If they refuse you for one of these then it can be challenged in court. However, conditions on certificates cannot be challenged unless they are grossly ridiculous of course. The courts do not see the requirement of DSC 1 or mentoring for people wanting a deer caliber rifle for the first time as ridiculous. This can seem grossly unfair if you have been stalking with an ‘estate rifle’ for years, but remember the FLD have no idea how good or safe a person is or what level of experience a person has. To be honest, many land owners were asking for DSC 1 well before the police cottoned onto it a few years back, not least of all because land owners wanted to mitigate their liability under the Occupiers Liability Act for example. This is not going to change, and as we live in a more litigious society you can expect more landowners to do the same. Will this apply to fox and other pests? Who knows, maybe in the future it will, but as of now it certainly is not being mentioned within ACPO. One of the bigger issues frankly is the inconstancy if all the FLD’s had the same criteria we would all know where we stand, but as of yet this is not happening. As far as BASC’s positions goes it is this – we welcome voluntary training for those who wish to improve their skill or knowledge and would certainly say it is ‘essential’ for a novice. However we are, and have always been against compulsory testing / training. If you are having issues with your FLD about grant or renewal then please contact the BASC firearms team if you are a BASC member David Don't know about anyone else, but that response doesn't fill me with hope for the future!!! To me it sounds like BASC is against compulsory testing but aren't going to challenge or pursue the matter any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeymagic1969 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Don't know about anyone else, but that response doesn't fill me with hope for the future!!! To me it sounds like BASC is against compulsory testing but aren't going to challenge or pursue the matter any further. Sounds about right - but then again BASC has a vested interest in DSC1 and they run some of the courses ( in other words make some of the money ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Here we go, same old ***** about BASC making money out of DSC 1 - NO WE DO NOT Exactly what are your concernes about the future? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Here we go again, the same old argument "I've been shooting for years and don't see why I should take the test" In every walk of life, qualifications is the way thses days. The short version. You have a choice, do it or don't Be aware that it may come to pass that you will not be able to stalk without it in the future, The HGV drivers CPC is a case in point. I have had my class 1 for over 30 years, If I don't do the CPC they will take my license from me. Do I whinge or do I do the test? Mmm tough one, I can't see moaning making it go away, or the DSC So what if someone makes money from training other people, folk make money from training fork truck drivers, IT workers etc etc Teachers get paid to teach, do YOU work for free? Edited July 20, 2009 by fullbore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Sounds about right - but then again BASC has a vested interest in DSC1 and they run some of the courses ( in other words make some of the money ) its not the BASC its a separate company altogether, well separate in that they are registered at BASC headquarters but thats unrelated apparently and been done to death. Its the way shooting is going Harnser and i think is down to some FEO's who don't really understand what they are doing and just get educated that its necessary. I'd like to know if anyone has got a rifle for Wild Boar without needing either as they would be the cherry on the top so to speak. I've just got a variation for centrefire and didn't put muntjac deer on it to keep things simple job done I'm ok to use it un mentored no issues at all yet had I put deer suddenly its a lot more complicated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 No signs of this thread producing anything new then - *yawns* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 No signs of this thread producing anything new then - *yawns* Absolutely if you're that good at stalking the test should be a breeze, just do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Here we go, same old ***** about BASC making money out of DSC 1 - NO WE DO NOT Exactly what are your concernes about the future? David David , my main concern for the future is will your ordinary shooter wanting to take up stalking ,going to be told by the constabularys that you carnt shoot deer unless you take a compulsary test or have somebody mentor you . I think that it is the responcibility of B.A.S.C. to be seen to do something about it for the membership . B.A.S.C. knows its wrong for the constabularys to insist on compulsary testing before issuing a F.A.C. and its only time before somebody offers a course for basic fox lamping and then every body will have to take another compulsory test before you can lamp foxes . Thats my concerns for the future . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Absolutely if you're that good at stalking the test should be a breeze, just do it Like the 40 year plus stalker who was re-taking his shooting test when I did mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Like the 40 year plus stalker who was re-taking his shooting test when I did mine My point exactly, just because you have done something for years, doesn't mean you have been doing it right, therefore training is a GOOD thing as I said in the first post, if you are that good at stalking, the test will be a breeze. He obviously wasn't good enough Edited July 20, 2009 by fullbore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 the same could be applied as far as having sex just as you've been doing it for years do you need educating and a test to say you're doing it properly. harnser it will happen and won't be long it'll start as a way of helping people into the sport and educating them about gun safety and FEO's will move it on as a way of covering their backs to include everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 the same could be applied as far as having sex just as you've been doing it for years do you need educating and a test to say you're doing it properly. It might reduce the divorce rate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 "the same could be applied as far as having sex just as you've been doing it for years do you need educating and a test to say you're doing it properly." I dont want the test !!!!!!! I will settle for practising as much as I can ! Any 25/30 year old mentors about (female of course ! ) Might as well ask for an undertaker as well ,because a 25 year old would kill me anyway ?? What a way to go lolol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 "the same could be applied as far as having sex just as you've been doing it for years do you need educating and a test to say you're doing it properly." I dont want the test !!!!!!! I will settle for practising as much as I can ! Any 25/30 year old mentors about (female of course ! ) Might as well ask for an undertaker as well ,because a 25 year old would kill me anyway ?? What a way to go lolol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigstevouk Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 therefore training is a GOOD thing Couldn't agree more..... always stay at the top of your game/sport with a little traing now and again...... as we all get into bad habits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 the same could be applied as far as having sex just as you've been doing it for years do you need educating and a test to say you're doing it properly. I think if you were 4" out on that one you might get some comments. Just when I though this tired old subject had nothing new to offer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 My point exactly, just because you have done something for years, doesn't mean you have been doing it right, therefore training is a GOOD thing as I said in the first post, if you are that good at stalking, the test will be a breeze. He obviously wasn't good enough and just because you have a bit of paper does not mean you are doing it "right" I know someone who has a dsc1 (so do I for that matter) who has shot ONE yes uno ONE deer yet it is on his portfolio for dsc2!!! now in theory that means he could achieve dsc2 by shooting another two deer and then he is a credible witness due to his "experience" ***! dsc1/ 2 and or mentoring is all about money and or control nothing more more nothing less and the BDS and bsac know that well in fact it suits them down to the ground? Its part of the lets keep the oiks away from deer? and of course plod knows that but hey he does not want you to have a .240 or above? that does not fit in with the lets control them ideology. Also you only have to look at deer numbers to prove that the BDS and dsc1/2 does nothing yes NOTHING for deer control, says I as I doff the cap and offer the ahem customary tip to the stalker who has had you sat in chair for 8 hours.fer **** all Cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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