Bazooka Joe Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 A short copy/paste from an email posted on another forum from Ian Clark, thought this would be of benefit to a good few on here. Proof of the underlined text below is in a recent thread by a member on this site, who was having problems with the FLD concerning his 243.....Now sorted without conditions. There's being a few threads recently asking what Insurance etc to go for, the answer is below. "It will shortly become public knowledge that the National Organization of Beaters & Pickers-up has joined SACS - all 9500 of them. This is of such huge significance for all who shoot in the UK that I just had to get it right first time. The REAL significance of this is that we now have members in EVERY Firearms Licensing Area." That means that in EVERY area, there are shooters who have our legal fees insurance, and from now on, no Chief Constable will be able to operate an internal 'policy' on licensing which goes beyond the LAW without it being challenged in court by our legal experts, at no expense to our individual members. BJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkfooty Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 I think you'll find that the above quote is inaccurate. All 9500 NOBS members have not joined SACS - only those who choose to pay the extra £15. Many NOBS members are already BASC members, so they are unlikely to pay £15 for more insurance when they are already covered through BASC. The point about Chief Constables being challenged in Court is also highly misleading. Most cases get sorted without ever going anywhere near a Court. You will recall that BASC have won Court cases where the costs have been awarded against the police. That's a huge incentive for the police to sort things out without going to Court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyboots Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 and sumtimes being a member of any group dosent help you at all as a mate found out about 2 years ago neither sacs or basc would take his case on they refused to help him full stop when he told them the reason for the psni refusing him a FAC, but a local small time soilctor took it on and never he went to court a few letters and phone calls sorted it out and he now has his FAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) What do SACS do for the future of shooting in the UK? Or even Scotland. Do they do any proactive lobbying or any significant PR? I would be reluctant to join an organisation that does not 'invest' in the future of shooting. Edited September 2, 2009 by Glenshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I would be reluctant to join an organisation that does not 'invest' in the future of shooting. And I was reluctant to rejoin an organisation that used my money to invest in itself. Swings and roundabouts mate. Ye makes yer choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partridge60 Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I doubt that NOBS actually even has 9,500 paid up members anyway but of more concern is the fact that a NOBS Regional Officer has stated that the third party liability cover is for SPORT only, so any beater or picker up getiing paid - and even a brace of birds, a drink or a lunch constitutes a legal payment - is not covered. See another thread re insurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 yep and it was worked out that most shoots hold employers liability for just such an event, Personally I'm only really bothered about liability when I'm shooting its a pretty tedious link to try and rubbish shooting insurance that doesn't cover you when you're not shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 BASC all day long for me - it's the extra bits like the running days, helpline (put me straight on insurance shooting abroad), access to the Bisley ranges oh yes and they threw in free range certification at the last running day. Oh the local fella offered to come out to my syndicate and give it a free review. SACS maybe a whole £20 cheaper than BASC but I am struggling to find an example of where the "cheapest" is necessarily the best. If I needed a brain surgeon I wouldn't start by looking for the cheapest one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I am a member of ***'s but I am not a member of SACS. I agree with Mungler, BASC all the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Have they got over the big fall out? Didn't Foxgun Tom walk out due to goings on within the ranks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 And for me BASC as well. They are a forward thinking professional organisation that is prepared to take on the anti-shooting bias so prevalent in political and media circles. We (rightly) moan like hell when there is another anti-shooting press article. I am delighted that with their investment in the new Media Centre, BASC can better portray shooters as normal sensible people enjoying and helping the countryside. From their 'Facts for Journalists' download to their well informed help desk, they are well equipped for making sure that both I and my children can shoot today and in the future. I work with the media in my day job (hence my interest in this) and have been told by several journalists that they respect the BASC's professionalism and that they "show shooters in a good light". I have also met my MP who respects them as well. You don't get that from operating out of a portacabin. Undoubtedly more expensive but if you can afford it, please go with the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I think the fall out between Tom and Ian has blown over, or at least in the public eye it has. I joined NOBS yesterday - and I can confirm that being a member of NOBS does not make me a member of SACS, unless I want to pay the extra £15 for SACS insurance- which I don’t, for two reasons 1. I already have liability cover 2. I have personal doubts over the SACS policy paying out in the event of ANY other liability policy being in force, having questioned the underwriter about their policy a few months ago when I was at the underwriters head office. Having spoken at length to Neil (Ch Exec NOBS) at the Midland last year I knew this was on the cards, and I think SACS were making noises about joking forces with another organisation a few months ago. Good luck to them I say if it floats your boat! If not there is always BASC! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I'm a member of BASC and am very happy with what I get for my money. But as I've said before, it's good to have a couple of other alternatives to keep the BASC 'honest'. Having a reasonably healthy lower cost alternative can only help them keep an eye on what our money's spent on. Nial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 don't get me wrong David but in reality do people care who pays out just that someone does, The big plus point for SACS at the moment and I'm not a member I'll hasten to add is the legal cover thats included as that for me would outweigh any behind the scenes wrangling between my house insurers and potential SACS insurers. I find it hard to believe that the BASC insurers would volunteer to front all the funds if the worst case scenario happened and you injured someone and disabled them for life requiring full time care which is probably the most expensive claim going. I'm sure you mentioned that they would discuss behind the scenes and try for joint liability which to me isn't that much different to that clause. On a personal front if I look through my insurance portfolio of car insurance, house insurance free personal accident with my bank account etc etc its surprising in theory what cover you have but I'm sure they don't all payout together if something happened to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted September 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I think you'll find that the above quote is inaccurate. All 9500 NOBS members have not joined SACS - only those who choose to pay the extra £15. Many NOBS members are already BASC members, so they are unlikely to pay £15 for more insurance when they are already covered through BASC. Hi PF, I wonder how long it will be before a good percentage are then ? Looking at the cost of BASC's membership, compared to N0B'S membership (£20), which includes a good Insurance Package, I wonder how how long before people way up £ signs. BJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 If everyone brought on price then the cheapest organisations would have the largest memberships- but they do not, they have the smallest memberships. Yes I agree it is important to have a choice, not one so it keeps organisations ‘honest’ but so you, the consumer have a choice as well. The BASC policy is designed to meet the demands and needs of shooters, so it will always have to take the ‘hit’ on a shooting claim. There are cases, like when the shooting incident take place in a members house for example, that we would look to the home insurer to contribute. Policies that are not shooting specific however will look to actively share the liability I suggest, or as the wording in several say not take nay liability at all. The issue for you when happens is they YOU are then left to sort it out! Legal expenses cover, Personally I it already attached to various polices so why do I need to buy another one? I can also buy ‘After the event insurance’ for a few quid if ever I need it, so again why bother. Very few firearms issues get to court anyway, there are most certainly about 100x as many liability claims in shooting per year verses grant / renewal / variation cases that need a lawyer to sort out, so I know where my priority would rest, but that’s me, you may be different of course. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 don't get me wrong David but in reality do people care who pays out just that someone does, The big plus point for SACS at the moment and I'm not a member I'll hasten to add is the legal cover thats included as that for me would outweigh any behind the scenes wrangling between my house insurers and potential SACS insurers. I find it hard to believe that the BASC insurers would volunteer to front all the funds if the worst case scenario happened and you injured someone and disabled them for life requiring full time care which is probably the most expensive claim going. I'm sure you mentioned that they would discuss behind the scenes and try for joint liability which to me isn't that much different to that clause. On a personal front if I look through my insurance portfolio of car insurance, house insurance free personal accident with my bank account etc etc its surprising in theory what cover you have but I'm sure they don't all payout together if something happened to me they dont all payout as such, but sometimes they contribute together. travel insurance is the perfect example; alot of the time if you claim for lost baggage the travel insurers pay half and your home insurer pays half, tho it doesnt affect your home insurance - the home insurer is happy to get away with paying half (or so) of the claim, instead of being stuck with the whole amount! anyway back to original point, and ive probably said this before, but the only organisation ive come into contact with through shooting is basc. one of the younger members on here (who i wont name) recently went on a basc youngshots day (think its called) where he was taken clay shooting and air rifle shooting,nd loved every bit of it, but ive never heard of any other organisation doing that - not saying they dont do it, but ive never heard of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partridge60 Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Unfortunately there is a scarcity on NOBS Forum and website regarding exactly what is covered and is not under the SACS deal, I for one would want to know a lot more especially as that Clause "for sport only" may be a useful dodge to avoid a payout. Having dealt with car claims in the past where it was not my fault and experienced how the companies cut and quibble for months, then find all sorts of ways to reduce a payout or avoid one I am perhaps more cynical than most, if it seems to be cheap it probably is cheap, but is it fit for purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 would any shooting organization pay out or take on a case if the shooters was covered by other means. there more to a shooting organization than insurance, which most standard house and life insurance cover any way. but when it comes to the individual shooter and there feo,s, i know who i would want to fight it without it having to go in front of any committee or wonder if it will set a lawful president before my insurers will think of going to court. having a quick look round the shooting forums and basc members are jumping ship at an alarming rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 having a quick look round the shooting forums and basc members are jumping ship at an alarming rate. So how many have left according to your 'quick look'? Because the current membership is around 130,000 and IIRC, is thankfully growing. 'Thankfully' because I see no other organisation taking on the antis and the media in the way that the BASC are doing. And I want to be able to shoot for the rest of my life and for my lad to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 So how many have left according to your 'quick look' no numbers mate, have a look yourself its all there. Because the current membership is around 130,000 its been around that number since i have been on the is forum. do a search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I am afraid you will find Mark trawls out this anit BASC rubbish at every opportunity, it is so petty and tiresome and frankly has lost its impact, but he keeps doing it anyway. Don't rise ot the bait just let him get on with it. Mark did not get the service he wanted or expected from BASC and left, that is a matter of fact and record. However to infer as Mark does that you would not get support from BASC until it has been past a committee etc is just nonsense! We clearly detail on our web site he we handle all firearms enquiries. No we do not have a legal expenses insurance policy in place, nor do most organisations, we have looked at it and for the money it would cost think it is simply not worth it for us, like I say you may be surprised how much legal expenses insurance you already have! But to support your point Glenshooter, BASC is growing, it has been growing since I came on staff 14 years ago, and it look like it will keep on growing for the foreseeable future, why? Because I think most shooters can see the value in supporting BASC. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 So how many have left according to your 'quick look' no numbers mate, have a look yourself its all there. Because the current membership is around 130,000 its been around that number since i have been on the is forum. do a search. Well if you haven't got any numbers you can hardly say that 'members are jumping ship at an alarming rate'. Five, 10 or whatever number of people who come on forums mentioning that they are moving from the BASC is hardly going to have a huge impact on a growing membership of 130,000. Thankfully many people see the long game and realise that shooting is under threat in the UK and we need some organisation to protect it - in addition to giving membership linked insurance cover. So please folk, join an organisation that fights for shooters - not just gives the cheapest rates. It doesn't have to be the BASC but I have asked several times what SACS does for the future of shooting and have not had a reply. And that is surprising given that Scottish shooters must be the most likely to have restrictions on their sport. The BASC are campaigning for Scottish shooters but what about SACS? The CA are very effective campaigners for the hunting cause but they are not primarily a shooting organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Mark did not get the service he wanted or expected from BASC and left, that is a matter of fact and record. not the only one though am i david. funny thing is , when people are not happy with your employers you get all stroppy and we are accused of bashing, so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boromir Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Choose what Organisation you want. SACS and BASC seem to be the same other than price and the infamous BASC Firearms department. Personally if I had to choose It would have to be SACS. BASC acting like government how long do you think they will put up there membership costs again? Im betting 2 years time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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